Rebels have always had it a bit harder to activate as many squadrons in a single activation as the Imperials.

I believe that this is two-fold though. First because Imperial squadrons are cheaper, and second because the ISD is a BEAST of a ship, representing the biggest ship currently out to date.

Thankfully the ISD didn't have a Squadron value of 5 as early previews suggested:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/star-wars-armada-wave-2-announced.html

otherwise the disparity would have been even greater.

It's kind of a pity that Liberty-types don't have access to hangar bay upgrades, given that the sister ship of the Liberty itself had them:

Justice

But I suppose taking the dedicated carrier options other than actual bays sort of represents it, even if the squadron value itself remains low.

Rebels have always had it a bit harder to activate as many squadrons in a single activation as the Imperials.

I believe that this is two-fold though. First because Imperial squadrons are cheaper, and second because the ISD is a BEAST of a ship, representing the biggest ship currently out to date.

well, now they get the cheaper gr-75 for all their squadron activating needs

+/- the cost effectiveness of squadron token spam tarkin

Rebels have always had the cheaper options for carriers as well as some of the better titles (Yavaris, I am glaring at you) but they pay a premium in the expense of their squadrons. This means that while they have the cheaper carriers, they just dont has as many squadrons for those carriers to cater to.

I mean the A is 11 points and I don't see many Tie fighters or bombers so you're not getting much cheaper

I mean the A is 11 points and I don't see many Tie fighters or bombers so you're not getting much cheaper

I see bombers all the time. With the advent of Bomber Command Center I think you will see more and more.

Did try to make taking squad spam a thing, no idea if it will be though

Got up to rhymer and 5 bombers + mauler and 5 tie fighters and a jm5k between two Gonzati and two VSDs

What does this have to do with "Liberty"?

Absolutely nothing!

Though I do think squadron focused transports make Liberty sort of inefficient when you can just focus on making more efficient use of that front arc

Though I do think squadron focused transports make Liberty sort of inefficient when you can just focus on making more efficient use of that front arc

Well, I think there's no question Liberty is inherently going to be less efficient than the transports. But if you look at the list as a whole, you may decide you don't have room for a transport that serves no purpose except to squadron command.

If you happen to be using a Liberty MC80 in your list, why not use what you have instead of adding?

Though I do think squadron focused transports make Liberty sort of inefficient when you can just focus on making more efficient use of that front arc

Well, I think there's no question Liberty is inherently going to be less efficient than the transports. But if you look at the list as a whole, you may decide you don't have room for a transport that serves no purpose except to squadron command.

If you happen to be using a Liberty MC80 in your list, why not use what you have instead of adding?

Flight Controllers. The Liberty is more of a Fighter carrier than a Bomber carrier. Though B-Wings fit the role nicely. If you have it backed up with Flight Coordination Team and proper placement of Squadrons (or 2 FCT's) you can get the 4 Bombers in place pretty easily.

Problem with flight controllers is we're now butting heads with afmk2s

I get the potential efficiency of squadron ing while having that sledgehammer around, but a combination of requiring a token for the title and having that dubious nav chart + front arc dependency makes me skeptical

Easiest way to do that would be to bring Raymus Antilles along for the ride. I have had success in the past running an MC80 Assault as a squadron activater, so I wouldn't discount a 4 squadron activation ship from being a good option, especially if it could convert from squadron duty to heavy repairs or ridiculous maneuvers (see Gen Madine) as the turns dragged on.

This was my first thought as well. If you're going to use Flight Controllers, you want to maximize the number of squardons you're activating. That means you'll be spamming the squadron command pretty much regardless. Raymus+Liberty means you get 4 flight controlled squadron activations a turn. Now the question is if that's worthwhile on the Liberty class. You can do something similar with the AFII already (actually, the AFII can do it better because of it's natural squadron value of 3 plus an offensive retrofit slot). The Liberty just allows you to be a little tougher (double brace FTW!) and much more direct.

Problem with flight controllers is we're now butting heads with afmk2s

I get the potential efficiency of squadron ing while having that sledgehammer around, but a combination of requiring a token for the title and having that dubious nav chart + front arc dependency makes me skeptical

That is true, you are also gaining access to Fighter Coordination Teams which is really helpful for the slow squadrons

Imagine if you will, a Salvation Escort with FCT's and Liberty with FCT's moving some B-WIngs around and you have your Space Whale moving around the outside with some Y-Wings both the medium and large ship can have Flight Controllers which means you have separate attack forces to rely on. This will maximize effectiveness and divert your opponent. Add in Cracken and the Space Whale and Salvation (and even a BCC75) have some form of defense.

Easiest way to do that would be to bring Raymus Antilles along for the ride. I have had success in the past running an MC80 Assault as a squadron activater, so I wouldn't discount a 4 squadron activation ship from being a good option, especially if it could convert from squadron duty to heavy repairs or ridiculous maneuvers (see Gen Madine) as the turns dragged on.

This was my first thought as well. If you're going to use Flight Controllers, you want to maximize the number of squardons you're activating. That means you'll be spamming the squadron command pretty much regardless. Raymus+Liberty means you get 4 flight controlled squadron activations a turn. Now the question is if that's worthwhile on the Liberty class. You can do something similar with the AFII already (actually, the AFII can do it better because of it's natural squadron value of 3 plus an offensive retrofit slot). The Liberty just allows you to be a little tougher (double brace FTW!) and much more direct.

The problem is the Assault Frigate can do the same kind of loadout and get up to squadrons 5 (effectively, 3+1 from Expanded Hangar Bay + 1 from Raymus token) with Flight Controllers if you like and you're not giving up as strong of a Gunnery Team to do it. The Liberty only goes up to 4 total squadrons that way and for a higher cost.

Problem with flight controllers is we're now butting heads with afmk2s

I get the potential efficiency of squadron ing while having that sledgehammer around, but a combination of requiring a token for the title and having that dubious nav chart + front arc dependency makes me skeptical

That is true, you are also gaining access to Fighter Coordination Teams which is really helpful for the slow squadrons

Imagine if you will, a Salvation Escort with FCT's and Liberty with FCT's moving some B-WIngs around and you have your Space Whale moving around the outside with some Y-Wings both the medium and large ship can have Flight Controllers which means you have separate attack forces to rely on. This will maximize effectiveness and divert your opponent. Add in Cracken and the Space Whale and Salvation (and even a BCC75) have some form of defense.

Fighter Coordination Teams on the Liberty only move 2 squadrons. It's something, but it's not great. I agree they'll be swell on Nebulon-Bs, though. Carrier Home One MC80s too.

Easiest way to do that would be to bring Raymus Antilles along for the ride. I have had success in the past running an MC80 Assault as a squadron activater, so I wouldn't discount a 4 squadron activation ship from being a good option, especially if it could convert from squadron duty to heavy repairs or ridiculous maneuvers (see Gen Madine) as the turns dragged on.

This was my first thought as well. If you're going to use Flight Controllers, you want to maximize the number of squardons you're activating. That means you'll be spamming the squadron command pretty much regardless. Raymus+Liberty means you get 4 flight controlled squadron activations a turn. Now the question is if that's worthwhile on the Liberty class. You can do something similar with the AFII already (actually, the AFII can do it better because of it's natural squadron value of 3 plus an offensive retrofit slot). The Liberty just allows you to be a little tougher (double brace FTW!) and much more direct.

The problem is the Assault Frigate can do the same kind of loadout and get up to squadrons 5 (effectively, 3+1 from Expanded Hangar Bay + 1 from Raymus token) with Flight Controllers if you like and you're not giving up as strong of a Gunnery Team to do it. The Liberty only goes up to 4 total squadrons that way and for a higher cost.

Problem with flight controllers is we're now butting heads with afmk2s

I get the potential efficiency of squadron ing while having that sledgehammer around, but a combination of requiring a token for the title and having that dubious nav chart + front arc dependency makes me skeptical

That is true, you are also gaining access to Fighter Coordination Teams which is really helpful for the slow squadrons

Imagine if you will, a Salvation Escort with FCT's and Liberty with FCT's moving some B-WIngs around and you have your Space Whale moving around the outside with some Y-Wings both the medium and large ship can have Flight Controllers which means you have separate attack forces to rely on. This will maximize effectiveness and divert your opponent. Add in Cracken and the Space Whale and Salvation (and even a BCC75) have some form of defense.

Fighter Coordination Teams on the Liberty only move 2 squadrons. It's something, but it's not great. I agree they'll be swell on Nebulon-Bs, though. Carrier Home One MC80s too.

Dont underestimate what 2 B-Wings can do to a ship or even a set of squadrons. If you have a supporting Nebulon-B (which for 3 points and the Neb is a steal) that can be 4 B-Wings which can be activated by the Liberty.

The squadron game is not always about numbers. Just like an ISD with XI7's is a scalpel to other Redirect heavy ships, so can squadrons be a scalpel

Coordination teams are def food for thought on the wingless turd mc80 variant though

Always looking for excuses to run more Bs

Dont underestimate what 2 B-Wings can do to a ship or even a set of squadrons. If you have a supporting Nebulon-B (which for 3 points and the Neb is a steal) that can be 4 B-Wings which can be activated by the Liberty.

The squadron game is not always about numbers. Just like an ISD with XI7's is a scalpel to other Redirect heavy ships, so can squadrons be a scalpel

You seem to be misreading my argument as "squadrons aren't good." Squadrons are fine. Rebel bomber squadrons can be brutal. My argument is "if you're looking for a decent carrier, it seems like you'd be better off with other options."

Sure, a Liberty can push 2 B-Wings with Fighter Coordination Teams. Another Nebulon-B can help with 2 more. Then Liberty can activate 4 of them. Or you could do the same thing with either +1 squadron activation (Expanded Hangar Bays) or at long range (Boosted Comms) with a single Home One MC80 (possibly Independence).

The only thing the Liberty offers over a Command MC80 is the weapon team slot for Flight Controllers, but with the Liberty you generally are going to want that slot more for Gunnery Team AND the Liberty nav chart/bad non-front arcs is going to make Navigate/Engineering commands come at an even higher premium than on a Home-One style MC80. If you want a Flight Controllers carrier, you can still get a fine job done with an Assault Frigate configured the right way.

Dont underestimate what 2 B-Wings can do to a ship or even a set of squadrons. If you have a supporting Nebulon-B (which for 3 points and the Neb is a steal) that can be 4 B-Wings which can be activated by the Liberty.

The squadron game is not always about numbers. Just like an ISD with XI7's is a scalpel to other Redirect heavy ships, so can squadrons be a scalpel

You seem to be misreading my argument as "squadrons aren't good." Squadrons are fine. Rebel bomber squadrons can be brutal. My argument is "if you're looking for a decent carrier, it seems like you'd be better off with other options."

Sure, a Liberty can push 2 B-Wings with Fighter Coordination Teams. Another Nebulon-B can help with 2 more. Then Liberty can activate 4 of them. Or you could do the same thing with either +1 squadron activation (Expanded Hangar Bays) or at long range (Boosted Comms) with a single Home One MC80 (possibly Independence).

The only thing the Liberty offers over a Command MC80 is the weapon team slot for Flight Controllers, but with the Liberty you generally are going to want that slot more for Gunnery Team AND the Liberty nav chart/bad non-front arcs is going to make Navigate/Engineering commands come at an even higher premium than on a Home-One style MC80. If you want a Flight Controllers carrier, you can still get a fine job done with an Assault Frigate configured the right way.

You are going for efficiency and I am going for the strategic and tactical side.

Yes the standard MC80 can do the same thing but it does not access to Flight Controllers and typically wants Engine Techs so it can dance. That is fine. It also has Independence which can throw those squadrons out to long range but that makes Flight Coordination Teams useless. While the Liberty is going where the B-Wings are, this means a support platform, this means a thread with more dice, and speed.

Tactically it is sound.

I challenge you to find where I said squadrons are only good in numbers. If you can meaningfully deliver even one or two squadrons to the right place at the right time it can be valuable, but you need to keep in mind that the ships you're using to activate squadrons could be doing other things and therefore their carrier function needs to be cost-effective and command-effective or else they're simply not as good at the job as other fleet configurations could have been. I could command X-Wings and B-Wings using CR90s and MC30s, but they're pretty bad at it and so it would not be a very effective fleet.

The Liberty title requires a steady supply of Squadron tokens (likely from Raymus and/or Garm and/or a Comms Net GR75 and/or Tantive IV) to reach the Squadron activation capacity (with dial+token) of an unaugmented Home One MC80 or an Assault Frigate MkIIB with Expanded Hangar Bays. The main upside of the Liberty is it offers a platform for an officer (likely Flight Commander or Raymus), support team (likely Fighter Coordination Team), and weapon team (likely Flight Controllers) that can all do something for squadrons. That's potentially pretty good, if expensive (especially if you're importing your squadron tokens from elsewhere, which requires another ship and/or Garm). The main problems are:

1. The base Squadrons value of 2 means the Fighter Coordination Team isn't going to be doing too much work in its slot
2. The Flight Controllers are sitting in the Gunnery Teams' chairs, which can potentially be very detrimental given the one extremely good arc the Liberty gets
3. The officer slot may be somewhat contested (this may not be a big deal, depending)
4. It ends up being a sizable number of points
5. Your Squadron commands are non-Navigate and non-Engineering commands for a ship that's going to be hungry for as many of those as it can get due to a troublesome nav chart and one great arc accompanied by 3 poor arcs (both for shields and firepower).

I see the appeal but it feels to me like it's a big dogpile of non-ideal upgrade choices just to say you put a lot of squadron buffs all in one place. This is especially true considering the Command MC80 and Assault Frigate can get some serious work done as larger carriers (in a similar points bracket to the Liberty) without the Rube Goldberg machine approach and the Yavaris Nebulon-B or GR75 can activate smaller numbers of squadrons for a much more manageable price.

Please feel free to try out the Rube Goldberg Liberty plan, maybe I'm wrong. I will say right now I think a lot of us may be looking at the title incorrectly as "you can kind of cheat this into a Squadrons 4 ship." As I outlined above, I don't think this approach is wise given Rebels already get 2 medium/large ship variants that can make very effective carriers already without as much hassle. It may be better to look at the Liberty title as "if you can feed this ship a few squadron tokens throughout the game and weren't doing anything else with the title slot, it can help you manage 2 more squadrons on crucial turns with those tokens while it continues with its day by using mostly Navigate and Engineering dials." Given the Liberty title specifically buffs squadron tokens, this seems to be getting more direct benefit from the title.

Here are some thoughts on the Liberty as carrier debate we've got going on right now.

I don't think it comes down strictly to a "other ships can do this better." That's always been true. An MC80 Command is better at commanding squadrons than an MC80 Assault. The native squadron value is higher and the offensive upgrade slot is there. I still like to boss around squadrons on an MC80 Assault, because 3 squadron command is still a pretty efficient use of points. The simple fact is that no matter what build you choose, you need to have some plan for handling the enemy squadrons, and most of the time, that is a minimal plan for activating your own squadrons. We also want to make good use of a unit's native abilities, if we decide to take it.

We've also gotten the experience of tooling up ISDs to push around squadrons OR to use aggressively, so the idea of tooling up a Liberty for squadrons shouldn't be foreign at this point. We've already been to do all kinds of different builds with ISDs for a long time.

One central question in all fleet or deck building games is "When is enough?" You have to have a squadron plan in Armada, but you want to spend enough points and not any more. What you want is all the working parts to be working together well.

Here's one way I could see a Liberty carrier working:

Madine, Raymus, Flight Controllers, 3 Awings, Tycho, 2x YT2400; 2x CR90 TRC, Nebulon-B support/Salvation/Slaved. This is just off the top of my head really fast. Take a Nav the first turn, pocket the token. That's your chance to change speed, or more likely, to adjust Yaw on your Liberty as needed, at least on turns 2-3. You can run squadron commands on turns 2-3 and see how the squadron battle progresses. From that point onward, the Liberty can pick some different dials and you should be able to anticipate this by looking at what he's got invested in the squadron game. The Liberty has other ships that can do damage, so the point here is that it doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting alone, and you didn't sink a huge number of points into upgrades for it, which means if you can trade it for more ships than it costs, you trade very well. For that matter, just running Tycho and 3 As might be enough on the squadron front, which means you've got a decked out Admonition instead of one of the CR90s, and that's another ship that benefits from Madine. Speed-1 probably works on your Liberty, though it depends upon how fast the opponent wants to come in. What you want is the parts of a list all working together. The parts of this list work together. You don't just think about what a unit can do, but how it functions with the other units, how those units together function with your objectives, and so forth. You've got 7 placement, 4 activations, and a decent squadron game. Flexibility with your squadrons to fly them to where your Liberty will be. You've got the ability to focus fire a single target. For objectives, Most Wanted works because you can assign it to one of your Corvettes and trade up. Contested Outpost works with your high command ships, your squadron game, and the fact that you know where your opponent has to go. Corvettes are good for Intel Sweep, and it again acts as an objective where you can control where your opponent has to go. If your opponent has no squadrons, you punish him severely. If he brings the token four squadrons, you crush him and get on to the pleasant task of hitting ships. You might only need squadron commands on turns 2 and 3, and depending upon how the action is going, you might pocket the turn-3 token for a turn-4 activation. That's a lot of flexibility. Key Nav and Engineering with Raymus keep your Liberty hitting. For that matter, depending upon which Liberty variant you choose, you might even have room for Leading shots.

Could you insert a MKII-B into that list? Certainly. You might rework the squadron game a bit. You might free up points to spend on a different ship. I've got lists right now that use the MKII-b, and they are good lists. That's ok. Every list has its counters, and many lists can win when flown well. I'd say we're really at style and preference at this point.

The beauty of the title is its flexibility. I think a carrier variant can definitely work, especially in lieu of another carrier. I definitely agree that a token 2-off squadron activation when you're using your dials for other means is going to be a great way to use the title.

Please - it's Fighter Coordination Teams, not Flight Coordination Teams

thank you

Flight Controller Coordination Teams!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's it - I need a Fighter flight controller teams commander!!!

"If this ship ends it's activation within distance 2 of a squadron that was moved with Fighter Coordination Teams, you may move the ship distance 1"?

The extra distance 1 move either towards or away from the enemy could be called a "fighter flight response"

Not seeing the need to turn the one Rebel hunter killer ship into a sub par carrier.

Rebels get plenty of better ships than can be carriers, but they certainly do not get many better direct damage dealing platforms, why hamstring the Liberty? Have you rebels been that used to flanking, and dancing about, and dishing the pain a slice at a time, that you cannot conceptually accept you now have a brutal brutal hammer to smash things directly with? (and that is tongue in cheek, before my detractors start up.)

I mean it gets two TL slots for crying out loud, and can take ET for speed 4, with Madine it is truly disgusting how maneuverable it will be, this is your player one ship, just like the Imperials have had Demolisher driving them to be player one.

Granted, it'll be a less subpar carrier if it ever gets a way to just produce squadron tokens independent of its command dial

Would be a nice use of liberty, then; just a very cheap way to enable two squadrons while the ship also does its job unimpeded

I challenge you to find where I said squadrons are only good in numbers. If you can meaningfully deliver even one or two squadrons to the right place at the right time it can be valuable, but you need to keep in mind that the ships you're using to activate squadrons could be doing other things and therefore their carrier function needs to be cost-effective and command-effective or else they're simply not as good at the job as other fleet configurations could have been. I could command X-Wings and B-Wings using CR90s and MC30s, but they're pretty bad at it and so it would not be a very effective fleet.

The Liberty title requires a steady supply of Squadron tokens (likely from Raymus and/or Garm and/or a Comms Net GR75 and/or Tantive IV) to reach the Squadron activation capacity (with dial+token) of an unaugmented Home One MC80 or an Assault Frigate MkIIB with Expanded Hangar Bays. The main upside of the Liberty is it offers a platform for an officer (likely Flight Commander or Raymus), support team (likely Fighter Coordination Team), and weapon team (likely Flight Controllers) that can all do something for squadrons. That's potentially pretty good, if expensive (especially if you're importing your squadron tokens from elsewhere, which requires another ship and/or Garm). The main problems are:

• The base Squadrons value of 2 means the Fighter Coordination Team isn't going to be doing too much work in its slot
• The Flight Controllers are sitting in the Gunnery Teams' chairs, which can potentially be very detrimental given the one extremely good arc the Liberty gets
• The officer slot may be somewhat contested (this may not be a big deal, depending)
• It ends up being a sizable number of points
• Your Squadron commands are non-Navigate and non-Engineering commands for a ship that's going to be hungry for as many of those as it can get due to a troublesome nav chart and one great arc accompanied by 3 poor arcs (both for shields and firepower).

I see the appeal but it feels to me like it's a big dogpile of non-ideal upgrade choices just to say you put a lot of squadron buffs all in one place. This is especially true considering the Command MC80 and Assault Frigate can get some serious work done as larger carriers (in a similar points bracket to the Liberty) without the Rube Goldberg machine approach and the Yavaris Nebulon-B or GR75 can activate smaller numbers of squadrons for a much more manageable price.

Please feel free to try out the Rube Goldberg Liberty plan, maybe I'm wrong. I will say right now I think a lot of us may be looking at the title incorrectly as "you can kind of cheat this into a Squadrons 4 ship." As I outlined above, I don't think this approach is wise given Rebels already get 2 medium/large ship variants that can make very effective carriers already without as much hassle. It may be better to look at the Liberty title as "if you can feed this ship a few squadron tokens throughout the game and weren't doing anything else with the title slot, it can help you manage 2 more squadrons on crucial turns with those tokens while it continues with its day by using mostly Navigate and Engineering dials." Given the Liberty title specifically buffs squadron tokens, this seems to be getting more direct benefit from the title.

You hit upon an I interesting theory there at the end. What if you are using the Liberty with just tokens?