"aaaaand you can get the stress and don't roll any eyeballs. While TL works on blanks just as well."

- That tells me you haven't really run overclocked very much. I mean, neither have I, but I at least know how the card works! You don't take the stress unless you need another focus. Basically, the odds are that 2/3rds of the time you will have to take a stress for an extra focus token. But that's the not the end of the world, as I was saying, it seems to have had little impact on the alpha strike of the list, just the turn after - before the white sloop was optimal, now the bump is.

I could be misunderstanding you, but I'm pretty sure you have to take the stress to get the focus as soon as you spend the first focus token. You can't roll to see if you need it and then decide to take the stress.

Okay, my apologies, that's a big difference right there, as it means 33% of the time you are paying the price of a stress for what, at ps3, will probably be a useless token!

Stress matters on jm5ks when you're working with a NASCAR dial and a white segnors you can't deadeye off of when stressed the turn prior

"They're making another left turn!"

sigh

Deadeye isn't the problem.

Is too.

One could just as easily argue that guidance chips are the problem. Without that guaranteed blank to hit conversion it wouldn't be nearly as scary

Without a modification like Chips or Longe-Range Scanners, ordnance is rarely worth using.

The problem with Deadeye is the way it changes the information and decision-making process for ordnance. It makes range restrictions less consequential, and allows targeting decisions to be made when a ship activates during the Combat phase--when the player has MUCH more information. That didn't cause a problem when ordnance was generally expensive and ineffective, because typically it just meant throwing good points after bad.

But in the Extra Munitions + Chips/Scanners metagame, it either needs to be unique or more expensive.

If Deadeye were to be made unique, Palp Aces would have free reign to just abuse the low PS TL acquisition problem.

If Scouts were nerfed into the ground, no one would jump to other ordnance based lists. You just wouldn't see much of it.

It seems that many of you guys that hate U-Boats don't want ordnance to actually be effective. That's fine to think that, but that you hate effective ordnance because Deadeye allows you to choose targets in the combat phase when you have MUCH more information while being okay with Palp Aces ships being able to boost after everyone else when you have MUCH more information is something that's inconsistent to me.

There is a player in my area that was complaining about ordnance and that guidance chips should cost 1 point. This player would play 65 point RAC+Soontir and Palp Aces for multiple weeks in a row, yet ordnance is too powerful and undercosted. I don't get why everyone fixates on U-Boats when Palp Aces ruins the game just as much if not more. Why?

Maybe because I can beat Palp Aces? Lol!

At least those suckers aren't deleting two or three ships in Round 1 if you make the mistake of not killing one before it fires.

sigh

Deadeye isn't the problem.

Is too.

One could just as easily argue that guidance chips are the problem. Without that guaranteed blank to hit conversion it wouldn't be nearly as scary

Without a modification like Chips or Longe-Range Scanners, ordnance is rarely worth using.

The problem with Deadeye is the way it changes the information and decision-making process for ordnance. It makes range restrictions less consequential, and allows targeting decisions to be made when a ship activates during the Combat phase--when the player has MUCH more information. That didn't cause a problem when ordnance was generally expensive and ineffective, because typically it just meant throwing good points after bad.

But in the Extra Munitions + Chips/Scanners metagame, it either needs to be unique or more expensive.

If Deadeye were to be made unique, Palp Aces would have free reign to just abuse the low PS TL acquisition problem.

If Scouts were nerfed into the ground, no one would jump to other ordnance based lists. You just wouldn't see much of it.

It seems that many of you guys that hate U-Boats don't want ordnance to actually be effective. That's fine to think that, but that you hate effective ordnance because Deadeye allows you to choose targets in the combat phase when you have MUCH more information while being okay with Palp Aces ships being able to boost after everyone else when you have MUCH more information is something that's inconsistent to me.

There is a player in my area that was complaining about ordnance and that guidance chips should cost 1 point. This player would play 65 point RAC+Soontir and Palp Aces for multiple weeks in a row, yet ordnance is too powerful and undercosted. I don't get why everyone fixates on U-Boats when Palp Aces ruins the game just as much if not more. Why?

Maybe because I can beat Palp Aces? Lol!

At least those suckers aren't deleting two or three ships in Round 1 if you make the mistake of not killing one before it fires.

That's the thing, U-Boats knock you out in a swift manner.

Palp Aces gives you the illusion that you have a chance all game, since they are invincible and not as offensive, you think you're playing the game when in reality your ships have little chance of punching through. They the defensive version of U-Boats, with the ability to turn blank blank focus into 4 evade results.

It's a much more insidious list. You move your ships around against it longer and roll dice and set dials, but all of your attacks are (secretly) worthless and you're just as doomed against it as you are against U-Boats.

You know PG... I really hate that Paul Heaver said that stuff to you, but Palp Aces really aren't that hot.

Soontir Fel is a beast. But he is a 3 hull beast. If you can't beat him then you need to look at why you lost. Palpatine only works once and you only need to score one hit to knock Soontirs' defenses down to acceptable levels. What do you usually go for first? The Palp shuttle? That's half the problem. What good is a free dice result if you have no Aces to spend it on?

Palp Aces win by virtue of having deadly late game ships to mop up. Remove the late game threat and you're halfway there. It's easy to avoid the Lambda and with only two targets to focus down I really don't understand the problem.

I know you are quite an avid character, but please PGS, let's drop the recriminations. I blocked JBR7 because I can't stand his foppish casual attitude and the only reason you haven't been relegated the same fate is because I feel like you can couch your arguments in intelligent debate.

So how about we look at the problem like adults and can the acrimonious mudslinging eh?

You know PG... I really hate that Paul Heaver said that stuff to you, but Palp Aces really aren't that hot.

What's the source of that signature? I searched the forums to find its thread, looking for context. Never imagined that it was directed at PGS himself.

You know PG... I really hate that Paul Heaver said that stuff to you, but Palp Aces really aren't that hot.

What's the source of that signature? I searched the forums to find its thread, looking for context. Never imagined that it was directed at PGS himself.

It was from a PM exchange.

I had posted about how I went 200-0 in a game with 5 red Autothruster Alphas. My opponent had a bunch of PS 4 ships, and would move them all and then focus with them all, which in reality is the wrong way to do it since you're missing all of your action windows. But I said nothing and let him do it on the first few turns when it wasn't relevant, and then denied him his missed opportunities when he closed to range 1. He rolled many focus results, lol.

This is allowable in the rules, it says nothing about having to be consistent with your allowance of missed triggers. I think it was in the 2016 store championship results thread, let me try and find a link.

Pheaver messaged me about it.

You know PG... I really hate that Paul Heaver said that stuff to you, but Palp Aces really aren't that hot.

What's the source of that signature? I searched the forums to find its thread, looking for context. Never imagined that it was directed at PGS himself.

It was from a PM exchange.

I had posted about how I went 200-0 in a game with 5 red Autothruster Alphas. My opponent had a bunch of PS 4 ships, and would move them all and then focus with them all, which in reality is the wrong way to do it since you're missing all of your action windows. But I said nothing and let him do it on the first few turns when it wasn't relevant, and then denied him his missed opportunities when he closed to range 1. He rolled many focus results, lol.

This is allowable in the rules, it says nothing about having to be consistent with your allowance of missed triggers. I think it was in the 2016 store championship results thread, let me try and find a link.

Pheaver messaged me about it.

Oh good, I was always bothered by that quote. Glad to know it's justified. I'd hate to play with you PGS.

"Statistical difference is statistical bullship."

- There is no difference in expected damage between a chip/plasma overclocked and a chip/plasma aggro'd. That's not 'bull', that's a true statement: they both deliver an expected 3.7 points of damage.

Up until the point when you roll some blanks. Chips will save you from one, but any others you can do nothing with. Also, if you have just one eyeball and at least one blank, taking a stress for converting one die seems much less appealing than just using the free TL.

Everyone points out rolling all blanks with overclockeed,but you can just as easily roll all eyeballs with r4, where overclocked would have been better. Sure the r4 rolling eyeballs can reroll them, doesn't change that overclocked would have been the better option

You know PG... I really hate that Paul Heaver said that stuff to you, but Palp Aces really aren't that hot.

What's the source of that signature? I searched the forums to find its thread, looking for context. Never imagined that it was directed at PGS himself.

It was from a PM exchange.

I had posted about how I went 200-0 in a game with 5 red Autothruster Alphas. My opponent had a bunch of PS 4 ships, and would move them all and then focus with them all, which in reality is the wrong way to do it since you're missing all of your action windows. But I said nothing and let him do it on the first few turns when it wasn't relevant, and then denied him his missed opportunities when he closed to range 1. He rolled many focus results, lol.

This is allowable in the rules, it says nothing about having to be consistent with your allowance of missed triggers. I think it was in the 2016 store championship results thread, let me try and find a link.

Pheaver messaged me about it.

You sound proud?

"Statistical difference is statistical bullship."

- There is no difference in expected damage between a chip/plasma overclocked and a chip/plasma aggro'd. That's not 'bull', that's a true statement: they both deliver an expected 3.7 points of damage.

Up until the point when you roll some blanks. Chips will save you from one, but any others you can do nothing with. Also, if you have just one eyeball and at least one blank, taking a stress for converting one die seems much less appealing than just using the free TL.

Everyone points out rolling all blanks with overclockeed,but you can just as easily roll all eyeballs with r4, where overclocked would have been better. Sure the r4 rolling eyeballs can reroll them, doesn't change that overclocked would have been the better option

@PGS - I had my doubts, but now I see that the quote is fully justified.

"Statistical difference is statistical bullship."

- There is no difference in expected damage between a chip/plasma overclocked and a chip/plasma aggro'd. That's not 'bull', that's a true statement: they both deliver an expected 3.7 points of damage.

Up until the point when you roll some blanks. Chips will save you from one, but any others you can do nothing with. Also, if you have just one eyeball and at least one blank, taking a stress for converting one die seems much less appealing than just using the free TL.

Everyone points out rolling all blanks with overclockeed,but you can just as easily roll all eyeballs with r4, where overclocked would have been better. Sure the r4 rolling eyeballs can reroll them, doesn't change that overclocked would have been the better option

My point was that R4 Agro allows you to try and do something with all non-hit results, while Overclocked doesn't help with 3/8 of the die faces.

That is purely psycological, since TLs don't fix everything guaranteed. The expected damage is the same and it doesn't matter how you get screwed.

Shhhh, target locks make them feel better

"Statistical difference is statistical bullship."

- There is no difference in expected damage between a chip/plasma overclocked and a chip/plasma aggro'd. That's not 'bull', that's a true statement: they both deliver an expected 3.7 points of damage.

Up until the point when you roll some blanks. Chips will save you from one, but any others you can do nothing with. Also, if you have just one eyeball and at least one blank, taking a stress for converting one die seems much less appealing than just using the free TL.

Everyone points out rolling all blanks with overclockeed,but you can just as easily roll all eyeballs with r4, where overclocked would have been better. Sure the r4 rolling eyeballs can reroll them, doesn't change that overclocked would have been the better option

My point was that R4 Agro allows you to try and do something with all non-hit results, while Overclocked doesn't help with 3/8 of the die faces.

That is purely psycological, since TLs don't fix everything guaranteed. The expected damage is the same and it doesn't matter how you get screwed.

This pretty much. There's no guarantee the blanks and eyeballs you re-roll won't turn up blanks or eyeballs again , statistically it's the same, it just makes people feel better if they roll again I guess

Except that statistics works over a huge nu,ber of samples, where edge cases average out. A single game is all about the edge cases IMHO due to the low number of rolls.

Except that statistics works over a huge nu,ber of samples, where edge cases average out. A single game is all about the edge cases IMHO due to the low number of rolls.

The numbers are identical: same distribution across 1, 2, 3 & 4 hits even. They're not close, they're identical: an expected damage of 3.68359375. Any damage advantage you think TL may have really is in your mind.

My points from earlier still stand: overclocked's lower cost allows for super-cheap scum crew upgrades or extreme initiative bids, while not affecting the likelihood to hit with plasma torps at all. They also trade late-game damage for all-game tankiness.

The faq has nerfed the boba/proton build, but aside from that, the Scout is almost as potent as ever, it just now demands a different style of play: alpha->block(+clear stress), not alpha->sloop. I guess it is a little more open to stress control now?

Except that statistics works over a huge nu,ber of samples, where edge cases average out. A single game is all about the edge cases IMHO due to the low number of rolls.

Like LordBlades said, this is purely psychological. It makes you feel better, but it's not actually true.

Edit: Now, if the variance were different you'd have a point. As an example, if combo A gets 4 hits 75% of the time and 0 hits the other 25%, it'd have the same average damage output as combo B which guarantees exactly 3 hits 100% of the time. The two wouldn't be the same, though and someone who preferred to avoid 'edge cases' could justifiably claim option B met their criteria better. That's not the case here, though.

There's no statistical difference between plasma chips with focus and plasma chips with tl.

The stress is a problem, but it just means a different playstyle - alternating torps and green-move blocks. The ship becomes much harder to kill too, with defensive focus always available. Finally, the build allows for a 4 point initiative bid, or a choice from the excellent scum crew upgrades - zuckuss, dengar, 4-lom.

Honestly, it seems scout players were migrating towards overclocked as the superior choice anyway. The only loss was the boba/aggro/proton build. That's it, really.

Statistical difference is statistical bullship. With Ordnance list you have that one window of opportunity to fire off the torp. If you lose it and don't deal any damage, you're toasted. Even 3\4 isn't enough to penetrate the concrete wall of Focus+Evade+Autothruster+Palp on 3-4 dice.

It wasn't a superior choice ever. It was only useful in mirror matches due to being 1 point cheaper. Nothing else here.

Proton torp on R4 aggro had 4\4 damage with crit almost auto-included.

Plasma torp had almost the same 3,75 chance to 4\4

Without R4 getting 2\4 or 3\4 is your statistical average.

aaaaand you can get the stress and don't roll any eyeballs. While TL works on blanks just as well.

The alpha strike suffers a little, but i don't believe that is the real problem.

A decent Palp Ace player avoids all but one shot from torps on the alpha strike anyway.

Where you could really bring the damage in on Soontir and co. Is when you could fire 2 turret shots with R4 boosted all hits, where an ace had to use Emperor and tokens, and then bring the damage in with a torpedo shot. That is how Jumpys usually beat PalpAces. Wait for the blanks to happen and before that, leech the tokens off. And that's where Agromech excelled.

So yes this is kind of a nerf for U-Boats, i don't think Banjo has this entirely right.

It is however also a well deserved nerf, asked for by a huge part of the forum and if i can take my gaming environmemt as a sample, also a big part of the community.

This will emsure that a lot less U-Boats are going to be played competitively, and that lists countering PalpAces will be back in the top ranks of the meta in no time. Which is a good thing!

This will emsure that a lot less U-Boats are going to be played competitively, and that lists countering PalpAces will be back in the top ranks of the meta in no time. Which is a good thing!

tell that to the people who were alreday running overclocked, and the 2 people who won regionals with overclocked and the new FAQ the day after it released.

There's no statistical difference between plasma chips with focus and plasma chips with tl.

The stress is a problem, but it just means a different playstyle - alternating torps and green-move blocks. The ship becomes much harder to kill too, with defensive focus always available. Finally, the build allows for a 4 point initiative bid, or a choice from the excellent scum crew upgrades - zuckuss, dengar, 4-lom.

Honestly, it seems scout players were migrating towards overclocked as the superior choice anyway. The only loss was the boba/aggro/proton build. That's it, really.

Statistical difference is statistical bullship. With Ordnance list you have that one window of opportunity to fire off the torp. If you lose it and don't deal any damage, you're toasted. Even 3\4 isn't enough to penetrate the concrete wall of Focus+Evade+Autothruster+Palp on 3-4 dice.

It wasn't a superior choice ever. It was only useful in mirror matches due to being 1 point cheaper. Nothing else here.

Proton torp on R4 aggro had 4\4 damage with crit almost auto-included.

Plasma torp had almost the same 3,75 chance to 4\4

Without R4 getting 2\4 or 3\4 is your statistical average.

aaaaand you can get the stress and don't roll any eyeballs. While TL works on blanks just as well.

The alpha strike suffers a little, but i don't believe that is the real problem.

A decent Palp Ace player avoids all but one shot from torps on the alpha strike anyway.

Where you could really bring the damage in on Soontir and co. Is when you could fire 2 turret shots with R4 boosted all hits, where an ace had to use Emperor and tokens, and then bring the damage in with a torpedo shot. That is how Jumpys usually beat PalpAces. Wait for the blanks to happen and before that, leech the tokens off. And that's where Agromech excelled.

So yes this is kind of a nerf for U-Boats, i don't think Banjo has this entirely right.

It is however also a well deserved nerf, asked for by a huge part of the forum and if i can take my gaming environmemt as a sample, also a big part of the community.

This will emsure that a lot less U-Boats are going to be played competitively, and that lists countering PalpAces will be back in the top ranks of the meta in no time. Which is a good thing!

ehhh...depends

the rebel ruining alpha is still there

what the errata did to r4 aggro is:

1. remove the near guaranteed four hit proton torps (as opposed to 70/75% 3+ hits plasma torp + mod)
2. remove the uber full-mod PWT which, esp with 4lom, could hit through aces
3. remove the torpscout that could torpedo and then torpedo again off of a white segnors or any move towards the right

I'm still skeptical about the vaunted "Palp-Aces counters". Vessery laughs at the Stresshog, and frankly, autothrusters+Palpatine can save a stressed ace if the dice turn against you even a little bit. Conner net is better since it's a grunted two damage (Sabine) and denies x7 defenders their evade on the following turn, but K-wings aren't cheap once you load the necessary stuff on them. Decivader works on Soontir, but Vessery is resilient enough to give a kamikaze decimator trouble unless the rest of the list is also kitted for an alpha strike.

I'm still skeptical about the vaunted "Palp-Aces counters". Vessery laughs at the Stresshog, and frankly, autothrusters+Palpatine can save a stressed ace if the dice turn against you even a little bit. Conner net is better since it's a grunted two damage (Sabine) and denies x7 defenders their evade on the following turn, but K-wings aren't cheap once you load the necessary stuff on them. Decivader works on Soontir, but Vessery is resilient enough to give a kamikaze decimator trouble unless the rest of the list is also kitted for an alpha strike.

I posted a whole list of (most scum, all non-uboat) things that kill palp aces in one of the other threads.

There's no statistical difference between plasma chips with focus and plasma chips with tl.

The stress is a problem, but it just means a different playstyle - alternating torps and green-move blocks. The ship becomes much harder to kill too, with defensive focus always available. Finally, the build allows for a 4 point initiative bid, or a choice from the excellent scum crew upgrades - zuckuss, dengar, 4-lom.

Honestly, it seems scout players were migrating towards overclocked as the superior choice anyway. The only loss was the boba/aggro/proton build. That's it, really.

Statistical difference is statistical bullship. With Ordnance list you have that one window of opportunity to fire off the torp. If you lose it and don't deal any damage, you're toasted. Even 3\4 isn't enough to penetrate the concrete wall of Focus+Evade+Autothruster+Palp on 3-4 dice.

It wasn't a superior choice ever. It was only useful in mirror matches due to being 1 point cheaper. Nothing else here.

Proton torp on R4 aggro had 4\4 damage with crit almost auto-included.

Plasma torp had almost the same 3,75 chance to 4\4

Without R4 getting 2\4 or 3\4 is your statistical average.

aaaaand you can get the stress and don't roll any eyeballs. While TL works on blanks just as well.

The alpha strike suffers a little, but i don't believe that is the real problem.

A decent Palp Ace player avoids all but one shot from torps on the alpha strike anyway.

Where you could really bring the damage in on Soontir and co. Is when you could fire 2 turret shots with R4 boosted all hits, where an ace had to use Emperor and tokens, and then bring the damage in with a torpedo shot. That is how Jumpys usually beat PalpAces. Wait for the blanks to happen and before that, leech the tokens off. And that's where Agromech excelled.

So yes this is kind of a nerf for U-Boats, i don't think Banjo has this entirely right.

It is however also a well deserved nerf, asked for by a huge part of the forum and if i can take my gaming environmemt as a sample, also a big part of the community.

This will emsure that a lot less U-Boats are going to be played competitively, and that lists countering PalpAces will be back in the top ranks of the meta in no time. Which is a good thing!

ehhh...depends

the rebel ruining alpha is still there

what the errata did to r4 aggro is:

• remove the near guaranteed four hit proton torps (as opposed to 70/75% 3+ hits plasma torp + mod)
• remove the uber full-mod PWT which, esp with 4lom, could hit through aces
• remove the torpscout that could torpedo and then torpedo again off of a white segnors or any move towards the right

And they can actually now whiff their Alpha-strike. 2-3 blanks are not unheard of and 2-3 hits are not enough to kill a lot of the things you need to kill Asap. The 4 hits are still possible, but it's not the 94% (or so) we had before. And this will help some Rebel lists to beat them again, which leads again to players stoppimg to use them.

And even if the best U-Boat players will remain and go on doing well with them, if a lot of the bad players fall off, Rebel lists will see a comeback because they will not have to play so many U-Boats in swiss and make the cuts more easily!

the hope is that less u-boats will mean less need to bid v u-boats

which means more feedbacks!

deadeye plasmas extras g-chips runs you 32 points

3 of those leaves you two feedbacks

drop an extra; third feedback!