Well, comparing the stats for the VCX-100 and the CR90, the CR90 is a much more agile ship. It just doesn't seem right. The CR90 is listed as 126,68m long, and the VCX-100 is 43,9m long. I suspect this is an error
Just to confirm the leads dev confirmed on the corresponding order66 podcast that the vcx100 was silhouette 5, this was no error, while you may differ in opinion, the Deva definitely and definitively confirmed that it is meant to be silhouette 5.
VCX is a cargo hauler. The CR90 is a ship of war. There is a difference.
What a carrier can do, you just typically don't see....
The ship rules in this game are kind of messed up.
I'd guess the reason why the Ghost has to be Sil 5 is because the one Hera uses has a hangar bay customization that holds a Sil 3 shuttle, and generally ships with hangar bays need to be 2 sil bigger than the largest thing that can dock.
What I really hate is how there is the standard CR90 Corllian Corvette has 4 hardpoints, and then there is the Cybershop version which has the light turbolasers removed, but sports room for 40 medical droids and 80 patients and has two more hardpoints... So if you want to heavily customize a CR90 and are willing to sacrifice weapons for it you can do it, but ONLY if you put 40 medical droids on board, because removing weapons to get more mods is not allowed unless you open a cybershop on board!
Edited by Aetrion
It's still fighter-sized. The Citadel is Silhouette 4 and can accommodate two fighters in docking clamps. There's no reason a Silhouette 4 VCX-100 couldn't clamp one fighter/shuttle to it's tail.
Except the Phantom isn't an externally mounted ship, not in the way the TIEs attached to a Gozanti or ships attached to a Citadel cruiser are. The Phantom fully integrates into the body of the Ghost, to the point that if one didn't know better, they'd never assume the rear-mounted guns were capable of detaching and becoming their own vessel.
I'll agree that it's not precisely the same, but I still think it's far closer to being a docking-clamp style connection than a hangar bay.
This is also assuming an after market modification. If it's factory capable (and IIRC it is) then Sil restrictions do not apply, it only factors in if you are adding the hanger bay attachment.
Also I watched an episode where a YT-2400 was bigger then the Ghost...
So should the YT-2400 be a sil 6 ship?
Also I watched an episode where a YT-2400 was bigger then the Ghost...
So should the YT-2400 be a sil 6 ship?
Just because its bigger doesnt meant iss sil 6 firstly the yt2400 is single level like the yt 1200, secondly thw whole argument is pinned round is it a large sil4 or a small sil5. It doesn't automatically mean bigger ships are 6 they could still be 5. Also doesnt mean that the books have the yt2400 silhouettes size correct since that was the first canon instance of it.
Not even a quarter of the size, certainly the YT-2400 does not look bigger to me:
edit: fixed a typo, clarified the second part of the sentence.
Edited by SEApocalypseThe Ghost has 3 decks and a hangar, it's pretty big compared to a YT2400. That said, it is at the low end of Sil 5, while the YTs are at the high end of Sil 4.
Also I watched an episode where a YT-2400 was bigger then the Ghost...
So should the YT-2400 be a sil 6 ship?
Not even a quarter of the cost, certainly does not look bigger to me:
The Ghost has 3 decks and a hangar, it's pretty big compared to a YT2400. That said, it is at the low end of Sil 5, while the YTs are at the high end of Sil 4.
Exactly, the YT-2400 may be wider than the VCX-100, but it is certainly not bigger, Not by a long shot. The VCX-100 has a much greater mass and volume than the YT-2400.
Not even a quarter of the cost, certainly does not look bigger to me:
so the fact that is 4 time taller with the same width is somehow the same size?
Well, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
The Ghost has 3 decks and a hangar, it's pretty big compared to a YT2400. That said, it is at the low end of Sil 5, while the YTs are at the high end of Sil 4.
That's no hangar. A hangar enclosed the craft within. Much of the small craft attached to the Ghost is exposed.
Well, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
I wouldn't call that gain the advantage necessarily. I would say that is just Hera is a REALLY awesome pilot.
The Ghost has 3 decks and a hangar, it's pretty big compared to a YT2400. That said, it is at the low end of Sil 5, while the YTs are at the high end of Sil 4.
That's no hangar. A hangar enclosed the craft within. Much of the small craft attached to the Ghost is exposed.
That's not the hangar I mean, but the one at the front of the ship where they load cargo. That's large enough to park a vehicle in easily. It's like a whole extra two decks below the top deck where the crew compartments are. The thing in the back doesn't really qualify as a hangar I suppose, because the whole point of having a hangar would be the ability to do maintenance on the vehicles you're landing there while in space. A half-enclosed ship in the back doesn't really allow that.
I think it's a good thing they made it a Sil 5 ship. Giving us yet another generic Sil 4 wouldn't have added anything useful to the game, there are already a dozen of those in the system. Having a relatively cheap Sil 5 that has 5 hardpoints and a full suite of weapons on the other hand introduces a lot of options you didn't have before. You can make a pocket carrier out of it without breaking the bank. You can put light turbolasers on it and gain the ability to outrange anything of Sil4 or smaller. You can make use of barrage rules, which can be extremely powerful even if you don't have a lot of guns if you have a good gunner.
If the VCX-100 was Sil 4 it would just be another second rate ship that offers no unique capabilities. I mean how many Sil 4 ships that nobody cares about are in the game now? Anyone here use a Sorosuub Luxury 3000 Yacht as their party ship? A Citadel Class? Skipray? Questor? Simiyiar? YV 929? Barloz Class? Kazellis Class? Nobody uses these ships, because they don't have the hardpoints or weapons or hull points to really be fun to use. The ones with great stats can't be customized, the ones that can be customized have terrible stats. At the end of the day if you want to tinker with your ship and make it awesome there is simply no good reason not to use one of the YTs at Sil4, because they offer the best mix of base stats and hardpoints.
This game doesn't really allow you to just pick whatever ship you think looks the coolest and customize it into your hero ship, it tends to be over the top miserly with hardpoints for most vessels, and contains a mess of ships that are just deliberately bad so you have something crummy to give to NPCs. So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad that the VCX wasn't just added on the pile of unremarkable Sil 4 ships that can't meaningfully compete with the YT series ships anyways. By giving it Sil 5 they enabled it's somewhat larger size to be mechanically harnessed if you use it as a player ship.
Edited by AetrionWell, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
Brilliant Evasion in action.
Same btw for the X-Wing VCX-100, Evade action, but no agility dice to evade incoming fire normally. ;-)
If the VCX-100 was Sil 4 it would just be another second rate ship that offers no unique capabilities. I mean how many Sil 4 ships that nobody cares about are in the game now? Anyone here use a Sorosuub Luxury 3000 Yacht as their party ship? A Citadel Class? Skipray? Questor? Simiyiar? YV 929? Barloz Class? Kazellis Class? Nobody uses these ships, because they don't have the hardpoints or weapons or hull points to really be fun to use. The ones with great stats can't be customized, the ones that can be customized have terrible stats. At the end of the day if you want to tinker with your ship and make it awesome there is simply no good reason not to use one of the YTs at Sil4, because they offer the best mix of base stats and hardpoints.
Actually, we have a Sorosuub Luxury 3000 Yacht (with the submerged modifications, I really wished that thing would have 5 hardpoints or even better the luxury passenger compartments in-built), a VCX-100 with retrofitted hangar bay and we actually consider buying a YT-2400. All very distinctive ships. And the best part about the VCX-100? Its freaking cheap, that is basically the only redeeming quality of the thing as there are plenty of better sil 5 ships around, just not for that price.
Now I had to look up the Skipray blastboat, and actually it can be quite the desireable ship, in a lot of ways it is more interesting as sil 4 attack platform than the mentioned YT-2400. And the Citadel Class? If you have the money and don't want or need a sil 5 gozanti than the citadel is totally the way to go, 4 Hardpoints, 5 weapons, armor 4, speed 3, 30 HT, what's not to like about that ship? It's a clear upgrade to basically all sil 4 freighters. The ship comes even with two docking clamps as default to carry two fighters with it. It's a lovely armed transport, packs a lot of punch and utility and while it is not a dog fighter per se, it supplements very well with two fighters to protect its ass. The medium sensor range is another big plus.
So I guess, you picked maybe the wrong examples, not that I would say that all ships needed to be equal. There is nothing wrong with having bad ships or even ships with different designs, but similar states in the game. A lot of the ships become desirable when you actually want the configuration they come with. The weapon upgrades are a little problematic here, as you really want at least twin's and can not upgrade single weapons to twins, while buying new weapons cost just one hardpoint even if you take a quad version.It is one of the reasons hardpoints are so overrated, because upgrading weapons without spending hardpoints is often suboptimal.
Well, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
They based it on a b17 flying fortress bomber. 'Nuf said. It aint dodging like a fighter plane.
So I guess, you picked maybe the wrong examples, not that I would say that all ships needed to be equal. There is nothing wrong with having bad ships or even ships with different designs, but similar states in the game. A lot of the ships become desirable when you actually want the configuration they come with. The weapon upgrades are a little problematic here, as you really want at least twin's and can not upgrade single weapons to twins, while buying new weapons cost just one hardpoint even if you take a quad version.It is one of the reasons hardpoints are so overrated, because upgrading weapons without spending hardpoints is often suboptimal.
You only went over the few ships I mentioned that have half way redeeming qualities, and in the end, it's not about whether the ships are pretty good, it's about whether anyone would actually want to use them. There are a lot of ships like the Skipray that are definitely solid on in their base stats, but with only 2 hardpoints there isn't a whole lot you can do with it beyond that. It will get you around, but if you really care about your ship not having a lot of hardpoints is a big no-no- The Citadel is a pretty nice ship, but still I've never seen anyone really want one just because it's not as cool as most ships.
And yea, the biggest thing you want out of any ship is the stuff you can't easily change. Any ship that already comes with a hangar bay is way more desirable than one where you have to add one, especially at Sil 5, because the modification only allows for 9 Sil worth of fighters to be stashed in a fully modded custom hangar bay, while many ships that have one base stash something like 6-12 fighters just like that. Same with weapons. The Corellian Corvette has twin medium turbolasers, which would cost 4 HP to fit on another Sil 5 ship because it's 3 extra hardpoints to fit an oversized weapon.
Personally I think the customization rules in this game kind of suck given how important cool spaceships are to the franchise. I would have preferred if the base ship would have simply set the silhouette of your ship and all the components were interchangable in their own way. It simply makes no sense to me that if I want to apply radar absorbing paint to my ship I can no longer upgrade the hyperdrive, or that if I want to add bigger guns with linked I can no longer have luxury passenger quarters. That's just nonsense.
You should be able to modify individual systems independently from each other. Then we'd have a game where you can pick your ship based on what you like and make it perform how you like if you have the credits, rather than a system where ships are a complex block of stats and all you can do is pray that the devs have written down stats that suit you somewhere.
Like I said before, the biggest example of how the ship customization in this game is just a bad system is the CR90 vs. the Cybershop Ship. It's the exact same ship, it's even described as a modified CR90 except the Cybershop Ship doesn't have the light turbolasers, and instead has +2 hardpoints and room for 40 medical droids and 80 patients. That's the kind of thing that's just really shows how inadequate the system is in my eyes. If the only way to have a CR90 that had it's weapons stripped and was modified as a hospital ship in the game is for the developers to write a whole new ship and publish it in a supplement then the customization system SUUUUUCKS. That's exactly what a customization system should allow you to do, requiring a whole new ship entry just to be able to strip the guns is ridiculous.
Why can't I just allocate the deckspace on a ship to quarters, cargo and hangar bays however I want? Why does replacing a tripple heavy turbolaser with a dual light laser cannon cost hardpoints instead of giving me more? Why can't I remove weapons to get more space for other equipment?
I mean they could have written an absolutely gorgeous system where you're free to customize your ship however you want. Give it limitations like deckspace, reactor output, hull points etc. I think I'll write a better ship customization system and post it up here.
Edited by Aetrion
I went over the first three ships you mentioned. And until proven otherwise I will assume that the rest of the list is as silly as the first three examples.
The balance of the combat system relies on the hardpoint limitations. And no, they could not have written a gorgeous system with free customizable ships. We are talking about FFG after all, they have trouble with the system as it is, they are dealing as well with a customer base which ranks balance over nearly anything else.
Lastly, those two weapons on the medial ship got not removed for hardpoint requirements to install medical equipment, after all that is just a workshop, and we have rules for those, they got removed because a lazarett ship is not supposed to be equipped with military grade weapons, they kept basically the equivalent of a small security against pirates on the ship.
Well, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
I wouldn't call that gain the advantage necessarily. I would say that is just Hera is a REALLY awesome pilot.
Well, that maneuver really is what Gain the Advantages is described as in the book. Also, in the rpg, there just isn't any talent or attachment that makes a Silhouette 5 ship able to do that.
Well, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
They based it on a b17 flying fortress bomber. 'Nuf said. It aint dodging like a fighter plane.
Yes, they did. But I think that was limited to the visuals, not its role in combat. I mean, a Nebulon-B is much more agile and just as fast as the VCX-100 as the stats stand now.
If they'd made it a Silhouette 4 ship, however, I could understand the poor Handling, as it is big for a ship on that Silhouette. But it being a Sil5 ship, at least it should have a much better Handling, as it is the smallest Sil5 ship I've seen so far.
But the Ghost, it does some pretty hefty maneuvers, and I guess we'll see more of that in upcoming Rebels episodes.
My Drake does even more hefty maneuvers, brilliant evasion is even more brilliant on a signature vehicle with showboat and koiogran turn and corellian sendoff. ;-)
Well, if the VCX-100 is Silhouette 5, it can't perform Punch It, Evasive Maneuvers, Gain the Advantage, Stay on Target... it can, however, do Barrage attacks. It seems a completely wrong to me, so at least in our campaigns, we run it as a Silhouette 4 ship (but we keep the poor Handling due to its size).
17 hours ago, Ferretz said:Well, maybe the devs really think the VCX-100 should be Sil5, but I do believe that the team behind Rebels really compares it more to the Falcon. In this short, the Ghost even pulls what seems to me to be a Gain the Advantage.
I initially thought this too, but I've come around to the Sil 5 crowd.
In this case, Hera is performing an opposed piloting check to override the arc affect of GtA, which is quite viable in a smaller Sil 5 ship.
I'm actually revising my opinion on Hera's build for that matter, as her leadership role and rank suggests she's not a Pilot so much as possibly something like Squadron Leader. That still leaves the piloting skills in the affordable "career skill" list, and provides plenty of talents that would work with the Ghost and Phantom (both individually and together), as well as the occasional fighter, but meshes better with a Twi'leks higher starting Presence...
Well, having read A New Dawn and watched every Rebels episode, I would absolutely call Hera a Pilot, but if she's a Smuggler or an Ace, that I'm not sure of. In A New Dawn she is more of the Smuggler type.
But as for the Silhouette, one can discuss if the Ghost falls into the 4 or 5 forever, but there in just about every episode the ship flies in combat, it performs actions like an YT freighter (those scenes are very much inspired by the scenes with the Falcon in the movies). Hera does a lot of Evasive Maneuvers, several instances of Stay on Target and at least a couple of Gain the Advantage. Punch it is used all the time. All those are max Silhouette 4, and the ship is even called a "Light Freighter"
Maybe Hera has some kind of Signature ability we don't know about yet? The easiest method is just to adjust the Silhouette down to 4, for those groups that feel it better represents the VCX-100.
But I admit, having a talent or other ability that would make a character dogfight with a capital ships (Sil5 and up) would be quite interesting... and silly.