Oh. Oh, we're back on that part of the argument. I miswrote that part, It was clarified with my "permissive" response instead.

My apologies.

As I stated in the past few posts:


I totally agree that both Madine and Nav Teams are 'activated' by the same trigger.

However

Both Madine and Nav Team grant permission for you to do something, rather than tell you to do something...

Two lots of permission is just permission.

You are saying the same thing.

Two lots of permissions is not allowed? then how do you change speed with the token, and then change speed because you spent that token, to change speed again via Madine.

By your rational you cannot legally do so, and yet that is the default action for any Nav Token.

it is pretty simple, if you spend a token to generate an effect, Madine lets you also generate an additional effect, because you spent that token to generate an effect. and if that is legal and the intent of the card, then there is no basis to say, you cannot get a yaw instead of a speed change if you have a nav team.

And I argue that the Effect Generated is "You may use this Token to Change Yaw by 1."

Ergo, the Token may be used to Change your Yaw by 1.

Two Copies of:
"This Trigger allows you to use a Token to Change your Yaw by 1."

Is VERY different to:

Two Copies of:
"This Trigger allows a Token to Generate One Additional Yaw."

I argue the first. The fact that those two triggers, combined, only generate One Yaw.

If it were Worded closer to the second, I would have your side.

But, its clear, that my explanations are insufficient to sway you... I believe the wording is clear in its redundancy.

Dunno if I am not explaining what I am trying to say very well.

I don't want this to turn into another G-8 discussion.

Does is say you may spend on Madine? No

It says "if a Nav token was spent." that is it, if you have already spent a token, Madine does something, NOT the token. the token is not generating two sets of effects for yaws, it is generating one set of effects either speed or yaw, and then it triggers Madine and Madine does something.

And I argue that the Effect Generated is "You may use this Token to Change Yaw by 1."

Ergo, the Token may be used to Change your Yaw by 1.

Two Copies of:

"This Trigger allows you to use a Token to Change your Yaw by 1."

Is VERY different to:

Two Copies of:

"This Trigger allows a Token to Generate One Additional Yaw."

I argue the first. The fact that those two triggers, combined, only generate One Yaw.

If it were Worded closer to the second, I would have your side.

But, its clear, that my explanations are insufficient to sway you... I believe the wording is clear in its redundancy.

Lets forget the Nav team for the moment.

By your argument here, when you spend a token to generate a speed change, it is then illegal for that same token to generate a speed change via Madine.

You would only get 1 speed change not 2 speed changes.

Making it pretty pointless, because the only way the card would then work is if you do actually have a Nav team, so you can generate one effect with the token and the other effect from Madine.

You have to Spend in order to Resolve .

This is why the Trigger given for Madine is "During Resolution, If you spent."

So you have to spend it during Resolution of that command.

When you Spend it, the Token says, "I Spent a Nav Token"

The Base Rules Say: "A Nav Token lets you change Speed by 1."

The Nav team card says: "Hey, instead of changing Speed, you could Increase your Yaw..."

Madine says: "Hey, instead of changing speed, you could increase your Yaw..."

The net effect of all 3 being.

You can follow the Core Rules, and Change your Speed by 1.
You can follow Nav Teams, and Increase your Yaw by 1.

You can follow Madine, and increase your Yaw by 1.

All 3 are allowed.

Even if you want to follow all 3, then you can add them all together:

"You can Change your Speed by 1, or instead, you could change your Yaw by 1, or instead , you could change your Yaw by 1."

By your argument here, when you spend a token to generate a speed change, it is then illegal for that same token to generate a speed change via Madine.

That's not my argument at all.

My argument is, You normally generate a single speed change. Change your Speed by 1. Madine says, "Hey, INSTEAD of changing your Speed, you can change your Yaw..."

instead is the powerful word there...

But I've responded above.

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that if Madine allowed one to modify tokens already modified by Nav Teams, then he could attack his ability on top of the normal token effect.

You have to Spend in order to Resolve .

This is why the Trigger given for Madine is "During Resolution, If you spent."

So you have to spend it during Resolution of that command.

When you Spend it, the Token says, "I Spent a Nav Token"

The Base Rules Say: "A Nav Token lets you change Speed by 1."

The Nav team card says: "Hey, instead of changing Speed, you could Increase your Yaw..."

Madine says: "Hey, instead of changing speed, you could increase your Yaw..."

The net effect of all 3 being.

You can follow the Core Rules, and Change your Speed by 1.

You can follow Nav Teams, and Increase your Yaw by 1.

You can follow Madine, and increase your Yaw by 1.

All 3 are allowed.

Even if you want to follow all 3, then you can add them all together:

"You can Change your Speed by 1, or instead, you could change your Yaw by 1, or instead , you could change your Yaw by 1."

So Madine in effect does nothing?

You do not gain an additional yaw from spending a dial? as you already get one spending the dial.

And you cannot change speed twice with a token and Madine either?

You just made Madine completely and utterly useless.

I totally disagree with your reading on this. The only thing that matters is whether you spent a dial or spent a token, or both. Nothing to do with the effects generated, otherwise it would just read "during navigation, when you spend a dial, you may gain an additional yaw, and if you spend a token, you may gain an additional speed or yaw. And it says nothing of the sort.

It says if you spent, to verify you spent that dial or that token, if you did not then Madine generates no effects.

We seem to be disagreeing with what is actually generating the effects, you think the dial/token, I think that Madine is generating the effects after you spend a dial/token.

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that if Madine allowed one to modify tokens already modified by Nav Teams, then he could attack his ability on top of the normal token effect.

Madine is not modifying anything.

Madine himself is generating an effect that can only be generated when you spend either a nav dial or a nav toke, and that means when you spend a dial to change speed and gain one yaw, you check Madine.

Did me spending the dial to change speed by 1, and gain 1 yaw on one joint, meet the criteria for Madine? yes it did, OK Madine then states you may gain 1 additional yaw. The dial is not generating this extra yaw, Madine is, the dial has to have been resolved before you even look at Madine.

Same for the token.

How does:

The Base Rules Say: "A Nav Token lets you change Speed by 1."

The Nav team card says: "Hey, instead of changing Speed, you could Increase your Yaw..."

Madine says: "Hey, instead of changing speed, you could increase your Yaw..."


become

"So Madine in effect does nothing?"

I totally argue that if you have BOTH, then one of them does nothing/

On their Own, they Totally do something.

They do the same thing as each other....



But you seem to be ignoring that now.

So, I'll:

Okay, back from the Desert...

Here is my Definitive way of working it out in application:

Organised Flowchart of the Rules in question:

-----

A Ship is equipped with both Nav Teams and has access to General Madine in its Fleet.

The ship has pulled a Concentrate Fire Dial, but has a Navigate Token.

The Ship Activates.
It resolves any activation abilities, and then fires Twice.

It then starts to perform its Maneuver.

At the Determine Course step of the Maneuver, multiple things engage:

- I can pick up the Maneuver Tool and Click it around, even placing it on the tabletop, as long as I do not lock it in place.
- I determine wether I am spending my Navigate Token, as per the rules of the Commands, and in doing so, Resolve a Nav Command.

I decide I will spend the Navigate Token, and resolve the Nav Command. Actually resolving the Navigate Command is a virtually instantaneous thing...

But as I am resolving the Nav Command, the basic rules trigger that state, "If you Resolve a Navigate Command with a Token, You may Change your Speed by 1."

Nav teams state, "You are required to be resolving a Navigate Command to do this: Your Navigate Command Tokens may be used to Increase Speed by 1, or increase Yaw by one."

As I am resolving the Navigate Token, I see that General Madine also says "While Resolving a Navigate command"... So his trigger goes off.

I look at all of my Triggers:

I have a Navigate Command resolving. Nestled in that Navigate command, I have a Nav Team that states "Your Nav Token can be a Speed OR a Yaw change." Nestled alongside that Nav Team I also have a General Madine that says "Your Nav Token can be a Speed OR a Yaw Change."

Both of those triggers have fired at the same time, they have fired identically, and provide the identical same resolution (for that part of it).

I am resolving a Navigate command, Through the use of a Navigate Token, which may be a Speed Increase, OR a Yaw Increase.

-----

Now, I am executing (with the same ship) a Navigate Command utilising a Navigate Dial. I have no Navigate Token.

During the "Execute a Maneuver" section, I go to determine course, and in doing so, trigger my Navigate command due to a Navigate Dial .

Nav Teams says: "You are required to be resolving a Navigate Command to do this: Your Navigate Command Tokens may be used to Increase Speed by 1, or increase Yaw by one."

Nav Teams has TRIGGERED, but its effect, is of course, going to be irrelevant.

General Madine also triggers during the Determine Course section, stating, "If you spent a Navigate Dial, then you may increase one additional yaw value by one."

This leaves me with the following Effects:

My Navigate Dial can Change Speed by One, AND/OR Increase Yaw by one.
General Madine says I can increase one additional Yaw click.

Ergo, I can Increase my Speed by 1. and Increase my Yaw By One, Or TWO Clicks.... Total.

( This is a secondary question, as is raised, is can I increase the same yaw by 2 (from - to I to II), or am I restricted to increasing two separate yaw values by 1... )

-----

In the Third Example Flowchart, my Ship has both a Navigate Dial, and a Navigate Token.

When I reach the Execute a Maneuver state, I go to Determine Course...

I execute my Navigate Command, and I state I will be spending both my Navigate Dial and my Navigate Token....

Nav Teams Triggers, as Above.
General Madine Triggers, and says "If you spend a Dial, You get an additional Click of Yaw. If you spent a Token, that Token can Change Speed by 1 or Give yaw..."

So my Options becomes as follows:

Increase Speed by 1: (Navigate Dial Granted)

Increase Yaw by 1: (Navigate Dial Granted)

Increase an additional yaw click by One (General Madine)
Increase Speed or Yaw by One. (Nav Team and General Madine Granted)


Which Leaves us with:

Change Speed by 1, Click Up To Three Yaw Clicks. I get this by taking the Speed and Yaw from the Dial, getting an Additional yaw from Madine Dial, and turning my Navigate Token into a Yaw through General Madine....

Change Speed by 1, Click Up To Three Yaw Clicks. I get this by Taking up General Madine on his offer of adding stuff to my Dial. I tell him to leave my Token alone, though... I do however take up Nav Team, because I paid 4 points to turn that Nav Token into a Yaw Change if I want to, Dammit!

I Change Speed by 2, Click up to Two Yaw Clicks. I get this by taking up General Madine on his offer of adding stuff to my Dial... So Yay, there's my Extra Yaw Click... But I turn him down for turning the Nav Token into a Yaw Change, because I want the Speed... I say the same thing to Nav Teams, that Token's gotta Stay a Speed Change....

I Change speed by 1, and click up to one Yaw click... I get this by ignoring the fact I paid for both General Madine and Nav Teams, because I am a Badass who Does not Need Upgrade cards... Or, more likely.... I've been Drinking Heavily...

Eastern King.

Under no circumstance with Madine or Nav Teams can you change speed by 2 with just a nav token.

Well I guess we will see.

And that is a bold statement Ginkapo.

By the wording on the card, you can spend a token to change speed by one. then having spent that token, qualify for the trigger on Madine, and it states if you spent a token, change speed by one, or gain one yaw.

I understand what Dras is saying, but I do not see Madine as being something that is modifying the dial/token directly, like a nav team or Ozzel does. I am seeing Madine as something that happens after them, based on the very specific wording on his card.

So what you are saying Eastern King is that:

A nav dial with Madine allows a ship to change speed by 2 and add 2 yaw.

A nav token with Madine allows a ship to change speed by 2 and add 1 yaw.

So a ship with Nav dial and token can change speed by 4.

All for the cost of 30 points.

So what you are saying Eastern King is that:

A nav dial with Madine allows a ship to change speed by 2 and add 2 yaw.

A nav token with Madine allows a ship to change speed by 2 and add 1 yaw.

So a ship with Nav dial and token can change speed by 4.

All for the cost of 30 points.

Well not change speed by 2 with a nav dial, Madine only gives one additional yaw for a spent dial.

But yes you can as written on his card change speed 2.

Seems crazy? sure, but I'll posit that Madine could have quite easily said.

"When a friendly ship resolves a Nav Command, it is spends a nav dial, it may increase 1 additional yaw value by 1. If it spends a Nav token, it may either change speed by 1, or increase 1 yaw value by 1."

And then there would be no discussion on what Madine, can or cannot do. However they did not word him that way, so that begs the question no? just exactly what is the benefit, they obviously meant something else, or it would be worded as I stated.

Edited to add :

Ozzel for 20 points allows you to change speed an additional 1, with a dial, or with a token,(and works in conjunction with a Nav Team), Meaning a dial+token allows 3 speed, 1 yaw, or 2 speed 2 yaws (nav team).

the only thing extra on Madine is a yaw (dial), or 1 yaw and no speed(token), for an extra 7 points.

So what you are saying Eastern King is that:

A nav dial with Madine allows a ship to change speed by 2 and add 2 yaw.

A nav token with Madine allows a ship to change speed by 2 and add 1 yaw.

So a ship with Nav dial and token can change speed by 4.

All for the cost of 30 points.

Well not change speed by 2 with a nav dial, Madine only gives one additional yaw for a spent dial.

But yes you can as written on his card change speed 2.

Seems crazy? sure, but I'll posit that Madine could have quite easily said.

"When a friendly ship resolves a Nav Command, it is spends a nav dial, it may increase 1 additional yaw value by 1. If it spends a Nav token, it may either change speed by 1, or increase 1 yaw value by 1."

And then there would be no discussion on what Madine, can or cannot do. However they did not word him that way, so that begs the question no? just exactly what is the benefit, they obviously meant something else, or it would be worded as I stated.

Edited to add :

Ozzel for 20 points allows you to change speed an additional 1, with a dial, or with a token,(and works in conjunction with a Nav Team), Meaning a dial+token allows 3 speed, 1 yaw, or 2 speed 2 yaws (nav team).

the only thing extra on Madine is a yaw (dial), or 1 yaw and no speed(token), for an extra 7 points.

There is NOTHING here that implies that Madine lets you resolve a dial/token and then ADD something on top of that. NOTHING.

It's simply an additional YAW with the dial and pseudo-Nav team for the token.

End of story. Move along, not the droids you're looking for etc.

Nothing?

I mean am I typing in a foreign language?

Does Madine say you may spend? does he say while resolving a Nav dial or nav token?

He says IF a dial was SPENT, you do understand that you get an effect from something that is spent already, yes? so you spend the dial, and then you look at Madine, and he says you can have an extra yaw, and you are saying he adds nothing? it is in plain English.

He says IF a dial was SPENT, you do understand that you get an effect from something that is spent already, yes? so you spend the dial, and then you look at Madine, and he says you can have an extra yaw, and you are saying he adds nothing? it is in plain English.

What the card says is that if you spend a token to resolve the nav command, you may change speed or add a yaw. IE Pseudo nav team.

The past tense is here because to resolve the nav command, you have spent something beforehand.

That's the plain English written on the card.

Nothing?

I mean am I typing in a foreign language?

Does Madine say you may spend? does he say while resolving a Nav dial or nav token?

He says IF a dial was SPENT, you do understand that you get an effect from something that is spent already, yes? so you spend the dial, and then you look at Madine, and he says you can have an extra yaw, and you are saying he adds nothing? it is in plain English.

Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course” step of movement.

When a friendly ship resolves a command, if it spent a dial it may increase 1 additional yaw value by 1. if it spent a token, it may either change its speed or increase 1 yaw value by 1.

Nav Dial - spent during the reveal dial step

aka - spent, not spend at the resolve navigation step.

i say they stack until it is FAQ'ed , as a largely rebel player , i also say that you can't , YES can't, use Fire control teams with XX9 and standard crit. boy wave 4 seems to have opened up multiple cans eh... LOL

i mean the standard rules didn't take in to account all the nice neat upgrade cards we have now for maneuver tokens being spent

Nav Dial - spent during the reveal dial step

aka - spent, not spend at the resolve navigation step.

Huh? I think you have confused the gaining of a token with the spending of a command (dial or token) and when each happens.

Page 3: " COMMAND TOKENS: When a ship’s command dial is revealed, that dial can be spent to assign the corresponding command token to that ship. Command tokens can be spent at the appropriate time to resolve the lesser effect of that command."

Page 3: "COMMANDS: A ship can resolve the effect of a command by spending a command dial or command token with the matching icon at the appropriate time."

Page 3: " Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course” step of movement.

guys the article definitively stats that with madine it's up to three.

guys the article definitively stats that with madine it's up to three.

While I do think the limit is, in fact, three, there are a couple problems with using the article as evidence:

1.) A ship can add three yaw without Nav Teams. They didn't say anything about with Nav Teams (very possibly because that combo doesn't work).

2.) Many FFG preview articles have made egregious rules errors.