Pretty simply, do they stack? Can I get two speed changes, or two clicks, or one of each, from a single token?

I believe that they do stack. My reasoning for this is that nav teams trigger on a nav command being issued, whether it is a dial or token. Madine states "when a friendly ship resolves a (nav) command..."

Although they both resolve off nav commands their triggers are worded different. Just my opinion but thats the way I view it.

TL;DR: yes

Read the admiral card. It states that when you resolve a nav, you get and additional effect from dial and token both.

Dial: speed + yaw + yaw (Madine)

Token: speed (or yaw with Madine)

So either 2 speed and 2 yaw, or 1 speed and 3 yaw

Read the admiral card. It states that when you resolve a nav, you get and additional effect from dial and token both.

Dial: speed + yaw + yaw (Madine)

Token: speed (or yaw with Madine)

So either 2 speed and 2 yaw, or 1 speed and 3 yaw

Yes, but that's not what I was asking. That part is incredibly obvious. I am asking about the specific interaction between Madine and Nav Teams in regards to spending navigate tokens .

On the one hand, I feel like they both trigger off of spending a navigate token, so one could resolve both of them. On the other hand, I'm not sure the abilities are worded in a way that allows them to stack.

As has been heavily and hotly discussed in the Liberty thread:

I doubt that spending just a single Navigate Token, while having Madine and a Nav Team upgrade, will allow you to have two clicks of Yaw off that one token.

They both allow you to yaw instead of speed change.

There's no reason why they'd 'stack'.

As has been heavily and hotly discussed in the Liberty thread:

I doubt that spending just a single Navigate Token, while having Madine and a Nav Team upgrade, will allow you to have two clicks of Yaw off that one token.

They both allow you to yaw instead of speed change.

There's no reason why they'd 'stack'.

Technically they both say that tokens can "either change [the ship's] speed or increase 1 yaw value by 1."

Which leads me to think that, at best, having both might let you get 2 additional yaw, but you would still be limited to one speed change.

As has been heavily and hotly discussed in the Liberty thread:

I doubt that spending just a single Navigate Token, while having Madine and a Nav Team upgrade, will allow you to have two clicks of Yaw off that one token.

They both allow you to yaw instead of speed change.

There's no reason why they'd 'stack'.

Why though? Ozzel and Nav Team work that way and each card provides an Additional yaw, not just 1 yaw but an additional.

Ozzel is an additional speed Change.

And it was declared that 0 Speed Changes (due to it being Yaw'd), Plus 1 Additional, is 0+1 = 1 Speed Change.

Neither General Madine or the Nav Teams state that they allow you to gain an additional yaw by using a Token. Only that they do allow you to Yaw with the Token.

Kind of like a Logic "OR" gate. If either is on its On. They don't get added togetheer.

As has been heavily and hotly discussed in the Liberty thread:

I doubt that spending just a single Navigate Token, while having Madine and a Nav Team upgrade, will allow you to have two clicks of Yaw off that one token.

They both allow you to yaw instead of speed change.

There's no reason why they'd 'stack'.

Why though? Ozzel and Nav Team work that way and each card provides an Additional yaw, not just 1 yaw but an additional.

Ozzel is an additional speed Change.

And it was declared that 0 Speed Changes (due to it being Yaw'd), Plus 1 Additional, is 0+1 = 1 Speed Change.

Neither General Madine or the Nav Teams state that they allow you to gain an additional yaw by using a Token. Only that they do allow you to Yaw with the Token.

Kind of like a Logic "OR" gate. If either is on its On. They don't get added togetheer.

Increase by 1 for Madine, Increase by 1 for Nav Team. Those should stack since each is a seperate ability

But they both "allow" the Nav Token (singular) to be spent to be an increase in yaw, instead of changing speed.

You can only Spend a single thing once, after all.

But they both "allow" the Nav Token (singular) to be spent to be an increase in yaw, instead of changing speed.

You can only Spend a single thing once, after all.

I am not sure where you are getting the 1 command equals 1 ability thing.

Let's take critical effects for instance. With the next card out we now have a firm reason to believe that only 1 critical symbol is needed to activate 2 crit effects.

Due to that, it is safe to believe that a single Navigate command can activate a combination like Engine Techs and Madine, or even Nav Team and Madine.

My best example is still Ozzel and Nav Team. One is a When ability, one is a command colon ability. If those can combine together what makes Madine and Nav Team different?

With Utmost respect, Lyraeus - you're ignoring the key component of my response:

Ozzel and Nav Team combine together due to the word additional .

IF Madine (or Nav) said, and I quote: "Token: Gain an additional click of Yaw" - Then I'd agree with you.

So, hear me out, and then if you still disagree, then I would request you try to find a point in the rulebook, or upgrade cards, where you get a duplicate or extra of something without the word additional, add or extra .

Let us word things out:

Nav teams:

"During the Resolution of a Navigate command, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to increase Yaw by 1. "

General Madine:
"During the Resolution of a Navigate command, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to either change speed or increase Yaw by 1."

Both:
"During the Resolution of a Navigate command, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to increase Yaw by 1. Also, since you have General Madine, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to change speed or increase Yaw by 1."

All it is doing, is providing permission for you to utilise your Nav Tokens to increase yaw by one.

Conclusion:

I contend that, for the purposes of Navigate Command Tokens - Nav Teams and General Madine are redundant . Both provide the same permission effect. Nav teams do so for a single ship, at a cost at 4 points. General Madine does so for your entire fleet, and provides an additional benefit for the utilisation of Navigate Command dials.

As has been heavily and hotly discussed in the Liberty thread:

I doubt that spending just a single Navigate Token, while having Madine and a Nav Team upgrade, will allow you to have two clicks of Yaw off that one token.

They both allow you to yaw instead of speed change.

There's no reason why they'd 'stack'.

^ This. There is no additional effect. I.e. Madine is a universal Nav team.

With Utmost respect, Lyraeus - you're ignoring the key component of my response:

Ozzel and Nav Team combine together due to the word additional .

IF Madine (or Nav) said, and I quote: "Token: Gain an additional click of Yaw" - Then I'd agree with you.

So, hear me out, and then if you still disagree, then I would request you try to find a point in the rulebook, or upgrade cards, where you get a duplicate or extra of something without the word additional, add or extra .

Let us word things out:

Nav teams:

"During the Resolution of a Navigate command, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to increase Yaw by 1. "

General Madine:

"During the Resolution of a Navigate command, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to either change speed or increase Yaw by 1."

Both:

"During the Resolution of a Navigate command, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to increase Yaw by 1. Also, since you have General Madine, your Navigate command tokens can be spent to change speed or increase Yaw by 1."

All it is doing, is providing permission for you to utilise your Nav Tokens to increase yaw by one.

Conclusion:

I contend that, for the purposes of Navigate Command Tokens - Nav Teams and General Madine are redundant . Both provide the same permission effect. Nav teams do so for a single ship, at a cost at 4 points. General Madine does so for your entire fleet, and provides an additional benefit for the utilisation of Navigate Command dials.

They are separate effects though.

You agree that there is an order of operations, correct? That one ability happens before the next, right? We know this is true for Demolisher, so lets work out the Order of Operations for a Madine and Nav Team.

Hear me out on this one then you can disagree if you want.

So the order of operations is:

1. Spend Nav Token
2. Madine's "When" ability triggers
3. Nav Team's "Command" ability triggers
4. Resolve Madine (Increase 1 Yaw by 1)
5. Resolve Nav Team (Increase 1 Yaw by 1)

How do those not work that way? Each just requires that you have spend a command to trigger right? One happens "When" and the other happens as a Command ability.

If I am wrong where is it, because I am looking at this the same way that Demolisher and Engine Techs works. You can choose the order of things.

Mind you, both Nav Team and Madine have near the exact same wording.

I'm not disagreeing that they both trigger.

They certainly both Trigger.

However, the result of said trigger is the permission that: "You may utilise your Navigate Token to increase your Yaw by 1."

Mind you, both Nav Team and Madine have near the exact same wording.

Now you see.

They both trigger, but they dont stack.

I'm not disagreeing that they both trigger.

They certainly both Trigger.

However, the result of said trigger is the permission that: "You may utilise your Navigate Token to increase your Yaw by 1."

I am not seeing it Dras.

Nav team changes what a token can be used for, you do not spend the token for the Nav Team. You spend the token to generate its effect, Nav teams change what that effect can be.

Just to clarify.

You have a Nav dial, and a Nav token.

You can change speed by up to two, and gain 1 additional yaw.

If you have a Nav team, you can change speed by 1 and gain 2 additional yaw.

End of interaction for Dial & Token & Nav Team.

Then Madine comes into play.

Madine : If you spent a dial, you can gain 1 additional yaw.

: If you spent a token, you can change speed by 1 or gain an additional yaw.

Ozzel is a during, Madine is an after, you already have to have spent a token for his effect to work, no where does it limit how that token was spent, just that it was spent.

TheEasternKing,

I have been arguing this topic already today, so I'll just reproduce the main part of it and see if that helps you to understand it:

I am not seeing it Dras.

Nav team changes what a token can be used for, you do not spend the token for the Nav Team. You spend the token to generate its effect, Nav teams change what that effect can be.

Just to clarify.

You have a Nav dial, and a Nav token.

You can change speed by up to two, and gain 1 additional yaw.

If you have a Nav team, you can change speed by 1 and gain 2 additional yaw.

End of interaction for Dial & Token & Nav Team.

Then Madine comes into play.

Madine : If you spent a dial, you can gain 1 additional yaw.

: If you spent a token, you can change speed by 1 or gain an additional yaw.

Ozzel is a during, Madine is an after, you already have to have spent a token for his effect to work, no where does it limit how that token was spent, just that it was spent.

1)

Madine is an After?

Madine is a When

2)

"Nav Team changes what it can be used for."

In effect, Nav team grants permission for you to use it as a Yaw, instead of a Change of Speed.

Madine does the same.

Permission has been Granted.

It doesn't mean you do it twice , only that permission has been granted twice .

Madine says " if it was spent." that is past tense. He does not say, during the "DTC step, you made gain an additional", clearly states if you have already spent the token to generate an effect, you get an additional effect.

Also if you cannot gain a yaw from the token, how are you gaining a speed change? according to you, you cannot get the same effect from spending the token twice, yet clearly it states you can gain another speed change, even if you spent the token previously to gain a speed change.

Nav teams do not require the spending of a token to generate an effect, they allow another action to be taken when you spend a nav token, and if it is legal to change speed with a token, then change speed again because you spent that token to change speed, then you can legally gain a yaw, and then an additional yaw from Madine.

Madine himself is generating additional effects for something that has already been spent to generate an effect.

" and if it is legal to change speed with a token, then change speed again because you spent that token to change speed, "

You've lost me.

You said you cannot spend a token to get a yaw in conjunction with a Nav team. and then get the same effect from Madine.

Yet without a Nav team, you can spend the token to change speed, and then use Madine to change speed again.

How is one legal, and one not?

Madine generates effects depending on whether you spent a dial, or a token, and he duplicates the effects, but you are not spending a dial twice or a token twice. You spend them once, and if you spend them, Madine does something.

There is nothing in the rules that say you cannot use a Nav team, to gain a yaw, when you spend your nav token, and then Madine kicks in, because you spent a Nav token. the Nav token is not being spent to generate the same effect, Madine is generating the effect, because a token was spent, there is no stipulation on what effect was generated by the token, just that you spent one.