I have some problems timing a attackwith unit with horrific mutation and a reiksguard knights with 1 damage and one other 1 hp unit. The horrific mutation is decleared attacking and I am able to decleare defenders, are defenders decleared in a row (so I could decleare sigmars blessed and the h.m. unit would be removed and the effect not longer lasting?) or are they declared on the same moment? If I would now declare reiksguard, does the counter strike kick in ("the counterstrike keyword allows a defending unit to immediately damage an attacker whenever it is decleared as defender"), removes the h.m. unit and is now living or are they applied the same moment, so counterstrike damage and being removed, or is the h.m. killing before counterstrike applies?

All units are technically declared at the same time. When you have conflicting effects the active player chooses the order.

Ok. I think you answered the counterstrike questin your way, but for me it, it remains a bit unclear. "The counterstrike keyword allows a defending unit to immediately damage an attacker whenever it is decleared as defender", so declaring it as a defender should allow me to do damage, even if the h.m. is killing my unit as it has become defender, before I do my damage.

So:
1. Attack declearation with horrific
2. Declaration of defending unit with counterstrike
3. Active player decides between horrific and couterstrike done first - e.g. horrific
4. Counterstrike (even if dead)

Nothing in the rules for the keyword counterstrike allow for it to work when the unit is dead. Active player chooses order of simultaneous effects they resolve completely before any other effect. Responses and action chains only apply to actions not forced effects that take place outside of a player action window.

I'd send it to Nate. We know that when an action chain is created once an effect is added to the stack it must resolve even if the card that had the effect is no longer in play. We don't have anything in the rules that says this is the way it is handled when it comes to Forced Effects or Constant Effects, but I could understand an extrapolation of that to all effects.

Can someone say me where I can find the email? I only found organized play.
And to get it right, so I can choose if I add a resources token on infiltrate first or if I want the oppenent first to remove cards?

There is a link at the bottom of this page.

Thank you, I searched the WHI sites for some link on the sites.

Answer:

The Horrific Mutation would take effect the moment the Defender is
declared. ("While attached unit is attacking, defending units get -1
hit points.")

The Counterstrike takes place "immediately after" they unit is
declared, so if Horrific Mutation would kill it when it is declared,
the Counterstrike never occurs.

So counterstrike is split actually in declearing and then dealing damage. The immediately is somehow confusing for me because things can happen in between.

In my mind I see it this way, Horrific Mutation is a constant effect, IOW it is a gamestate that applies when a unit is declared as a defender. Counterstrike is a keyword and as such has an initiation event. In this case that initiation event is one and the same as the gamestate which reduces the defending unit.

I'm pretty sure I see how this works in my mind regarding the Flowchart, but it would be nice to get official confirmation... I mean knowing it works this way is important, and we have a general statement to why, but the specifics will help with future questions.

It was the full Nate answer, so no more specifics from side.

Oh, I understand. I'm just trying to figure out the rules behind his ruling.

My read on it is that there are actually two different trigger conditions. One is while a unit is defending, the other is after it is declared. The constant while attacking happens faster than the "immediately after" part, although I really have no clue why. It seems to me that a unit can't actually be defending unless it's been declared, meaning it would "start" defending at the same moment the "after declaring" triggered.

<shrug> That's my read on it, and it's why I'm -><- THIS close to being done with this game. I hadn't thought it was possible to be worse than "developer's whim" rulings, but the batch today seem to have actively taken us all backwards in our understanding of the mechanics. Our understanding of simultaneous (and the convenient "active player decides" resolution that goes along with it) seems to have been overly broad, which opens up a whole slew of potential timing issues based on minor wording differences.

You can say designer's whim all you want, but until we see a flowchart it is nothing more than opinion. Thrones has a highly detailed flowchart which allows anyone to look at a card and figure out precisely when it works in comparison to pretty much everything else. The fact that so many people don't look and make assumptions, is beside the point.

I can easily see how this could be the only logic ruling based on the flowchart... we just don't have access to it yet, which, admittedly, is incredibly frustrating. If it makes no sense in the flowchart I could understand you quiting. If you are frustrated and want to shelve the game until the FAQ comes out, I can understand that too... that said is it really necessary to tell us repeatedly how close you are to quiting every time something you don't like comes down the pike?

<shrug> Just part of the conversation, although I think I've suggested it all of twice. Believe it or not, I'm really, REALLY trying to stick with this game. I like the way they broke several of the typical CCG patterns with the basic rules, and would like to see it work.

That said, all the originality of the basic rules has been completely overwhelmed by the sloppiness and poor handling of the cards themselves. So far I've seen a game where the developers are barely paying attention, respond to questions and problems slowly (if at all), seem more than willing to make rulings regardless of what the cards actually say (or how the cards fit into the rules as read), and have left the game sitting for almost three months now with no formal updates. I'm well aware you disagree with that, and don't see a problem with it (or are willing to just take it) even on the things you do agree, and that's fine. I'm holding out hope that we'll soon see some major shift in the way they're handling things, but it's thin at best at this point.

Ah, one more point: If I can't distinguish between designer's whim and them following some cryptic rules foundation we're never allowed to see, there really isn't a difference. The problem with "designer's whim" rulings is more than just ideological - it's that players are unable to resolve issues themselves, and I think the recent trio of rulings we've gotten support that being the situation we're in. At the point when you, most intensive follower and ardent supporter of the rules are caught off guard, it's a very bad sign for the game. If we include Abandoned Mine, I think that's the last four in a row (although I may have missed a few in there) that have done so.

By the time none of us can possibly resolve rules issues without running to daddy for help, it doesn't really matter if there's a method to the madness or not - it's still just madness.

No there were a number of other rulings that I was spot on about... and I'm human. I can misread cards and rules like anyone else, and on at least one occasion I was passing on information someone else had said Nate had ruled on. Whether Nate changed his mind to make the card follow the simplest interpretation or the player just misunderstood the answer is kind of up in the air.

dormouse said:

Or simply he misunderstood the question, if you get a lot of similar looking questions you tend to overread something.

For now I'm fine with the game since most things are handled in WHI like they were in Magic (As a sidenote, Magic needed more than fifty pages to make a complete rulebook). But I agree that he should push the release of the FAQ.

That is a possibility too. I still think when the flowchart comes out most of these questions will disappear and everything will make sense. Here is hoping that is sooner rather than later.