I found a list to test both Bomber characters and the most damaging Defender there is:

97 points

PILOTS

Colonel Vessery (37)

TIE Defender (35), Tractor beam (1), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/D (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Tomax Bren (32)

TIE Bomber (24), Crack Shot (1), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Long Range Scanners (0)

"Deathfire" (28)

TIE Bomber (17), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Conner Net (4), Long Range Scanners (0)

Not top tier by any means, but I get to try out both characters and see how good they can be. Vessery gives the list enough of a backbone that it won't immediatly fall apart.

I'd double down on offense by going for Marksmanship on Vessery. They're already going for Tomax first, might as well get focus target lock for both attacks. Since he fires after Tomax and his own tractor beam, Marksmanship has a higher chance of pushing a crit through.

Thomax doesn't have a T-Beam, I want Vessery at PS8 to shoot first.

Had a lot of fun with this one though I haven't faced large ships yet with it. Vessery sets them up with the tractor beam or forces them to expend tokens to avoid getting hit with it and then everyone else focus fires on the target after him.

• Darth Vader

TIE Advanced

TIE/x1

Adaptability

Engine Upgrade

Advanced Targeting Computer

37 points

• Colonel Vessery

TIE Defender

Tractor beam

Veteran Instincts

TIE/D

29 points

• The Inquisitor

TIE Advanced Prototype

Push the Limit

TIE/v1

34 points

I think your points are all wrong in this list my good man, Vessery is 37, Inquisitor 29 & Vader is 34. I was typing this up myself the other day with Autothrusters on inquisitor and then I saw 102pts and cried haha..

Everyone seems to be using Juke, and I thought I would too before they came out, but between earlier games practicing with Juke on other pilots and the games I ran with my Vets when I finally got them, it just seems that Juke almost never actually comes into play. I think the most I've ever had it trigger effectively (which is to say had the defender roll an evade that I could change to a focus, and they didn't have a token to change it back or they didn't roll a roll where they were going to spend a focus token anyway) was maybe twice in a match? But for just one point more per ship, I can take Predator which is helpful 90% of the time it seems. Plus I don't like when I have to choose between spending an Evade token to save damage, or thinking I should save it for Juke. So, after I changed the Jukes out, I changed my bomber in my new favorite squad as well. I took Systems Officer out (now that my ships are in charge of their own rerolls), and put Mara Jade in. The results is a bomber that is monstrously disruptive to enemy formations, and two Defenders that end up with Focus, Focus, Evade for almost every round of combat (that matters). Maarek Stele (TIE Defender) (35) Predator (3) Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1) TIE/x7 (-2) Countess Ryad (34) Predator (3) Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1) TIE/x7 (-2) Gamma Squadron Veteran (19) Determination (1) Fleet Officer (3) Mara Jade (3) Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1) TIE Shuttle (0) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You should run Vessery with Juke. He gets his rerolls from his pilot ability, and Juke is free damage whenever your opponent doesn't have a focus token. And when they do, that means that they'll likely have to spend it in order to defend against your attack. So now they no longer have a focus to modify their attack with. Sensor Jammer also functions this way, if they have to waste their focus punching through Sensor Jammer, now you're hitting their unmodified green dice.

Of course, if they have ways to generate multiple focus tokens then yes, it's not useful. But generally you're getting value from it even if they just spend their focus to reclaim an evade result.

It also drains a focus for other ships in your squad to hit into their unmodified green dice.

You should...

No.

I don't get that. Why not? What he says makes sense. Forcing the opponent to spend their Focus on defense is often quite good to ensure that they don't spend it on offense. Or...they don't have it for some other attacker. Also, Col. Vessery (or any other /D Defender) gets to do it with both his attacks. So....if they spend it on one, they aren't on the other.

Why dismiss his comments without even bothering to explain? I clearly think you are wrong to say that Juke "never comes into play" when they spend their Focus for defense.

All I want to fly:

====================
Black Omega Vanguard
====================

TIE Defender flight.

100 points

Pilots
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Glaive Squadron Pilot (33) x 2
TIE Defender (34), Crack Shot (1), TIE/x7 (-2)

Colonel Vessery (34)
TIE Defender (35), Crack Shot (1), TIE/x7 (-2)

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View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/531435/black-omega-vanguard
Tweak: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build/531435
XWS: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/xws/531435

Had a lot of fun with this one though I haven't faced large ships yet with it. Vessery sets them up with the tractor beam or forces them to expend tokens to avoid getting hit with it and then everyone else focus fires on the target after him.

• Darth Vader

TIE Advanced

TIE/x1

Adaptability

Engine Upgrade

Advanced Targeting Computer

37 points

• Colonel Vessery

TIE Defender

Tractor beam

Veteran Instincts

TIE/D

29 points

• The Inquisitor

TIE Advanced Prototype

Push the Limit

TIE/v1

34 points

I think your points are all wrong in this list my good man, Vessery is 37, Inquisitor 29 & Vader is 34. I was typing this up myself the other day with Autothrusters on inquisitor and then I saw 102pts and cried haha..

Yeah some how the copy paste from Squadron Builder came over wrong, you've got the total points for each right. Yeah the lack of Auto Thrusters has hurt the Inquisitor. I've come up with one that replaces Vader with a PTL Juno without EU and was able to fit Auto Thrusters on him. Haven't tried it out yet was thinking of dropping him out for another ship but since Vessery really wants the TL from other ships I want to find a replacement that will TL for Vessery. Vessery has been the MVP in this group in all the games I've played with it. I let a friend try it against another list I had come up with and my friend tabled me with my own list!

i ran the tie/d a couple times sunday and i was really underwhelmed with it. I almost always hit both attacks but the cost of the ship was ~8-10pts more than an x7 defender would be and dear god they die fast without x7 lol. the /d title makes them a huge target, and one that isnt much harder than a TIE to take down

Piffle. They really only suffer if you've got a limited selection of dangerous ships. Even before TIE/D and x7 I was able to get very good results out of even single Defenders. Sure the D can't stand up to something like U-boats or the Ghost like an x7, but it can still boom and zoom with the best of them.

i ran the tie/d a couple times sunday and i was really underwhelmed with it. I almost always hit both attacks but the cost of the ship was ~8-10pts more than an x7 defender would be and dear god they die fast without x7 lol. the /d title makes them a huge target, and one that isnt much harder than a TIE to take down

Basically in this boat

Even Vess, ie THE Tie/D thanks to his ability allowing mods on both attacks, was just horribly underwhelming. Just kept plinking off green dice

Granted the cannon functioned as a mini gunner to strip tokens for the primary, but the costs associated with it makes me like it FAR less than x7 Juke

That said, I love the play style difference of mixed x7s and Ds with x7s zipping around like mad and vess steamrolling in after

Everyone seems to be using Juke, and I thought I would too before they came out, but between earlier games practicing with Juke on other pilots and the games I ran with my Vets when I finally got them, it just seems that Juke almost never actually comes into play. I think the most I've ever had it trigger effectively (which is to say had the defender roll an evade that I could change to a focus, and they didn't have a token to change it back or they didn't roll a roll where they were going to spend a focus token anyway) was maybe twice in a match? But for just one point more per ship, I can take Predator which is helpful 90% of the time it seems. Plus I don't like when I have to choose between spending an Evade token to save damage, or thinking I should save it for Juke. So, after I changed the Jukes out, I changed my bomber in my new favorite squad as well. I took Systems Officer out (now that my ships are in charge of their own rerolls), and put Mara Jade in. The results is a bomber that is monstrously disruptive to enemy formations, and two Defenders that end up with Focus, Focus, Evade for almost every round of combat (that matters).

Maarek Stele (TIE Defender) (35)

Predator (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Countess Ryad (34)

Predator (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Determination (1)

Fleet Officer (3)

Mara Jade (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Shuttle (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I don't see out Determination is helping here. There is no pilot skill on Gamma Squadron Veteran.

I don't see out Determination is helping here. There is no pilot skill on Gamma Squadron Veteran.

It's not there to save the pilot ability, but to ignore any Critical Hit with PILOT at the top. So, it's a cheap way to remove critical hits. Not sure what the % of critical hits that are PILOT in the new deck, but it's a cheap extra hull point on a ship that attracts a lot of crits.

I don't see out Determination is helping here. There is no pilot skill on Gamma Squadron Veteran.

It's not there to save the pilot ability, but to ignore any Critical Hit with PILOT at the top. So, it's a cheap way to remove critical hits. Not sure what the % of critical hits that are PILOT in the new deck, but it's a cheap extra hull point on a ship that attracts a lot of crits.

It's the same makeup as the old deck. There are 33 cards, eight of which are pilot crits. That's about a 24% chance of pulling a pilot crit.

Everyone seems to be using Juke, and I thought I would too before they came out, but between earlier games practicing with Juke on other pilots and the games I ran with my Vets when I finally got them, it just seems that Juke almost never actually comes into play. I think the most I've ever had it trigger effectively (which is to say had the defender roll an evade that I could change to a focus, and they didn't have a token to change it back or they didn't roll a roll where they were going to spend a focus token anyway) was maybe twice in a match? But for just one point more per ship, I can take Predator which is helpful 90% of the time it seems. Plus I don't like when I have to choose between spending an Evade token to save damage, or thinking I should save it for Juke. So, after I changed the Jukes out, I changed my bomber in my new favorite squad as well. I took Systems Officer out (now that my ships are in charge of their own rerolls), and put Mara Jade in. The results is a bomber that is monstrously disruptive to enemy formations, and two Defenders that end up with Focus, Focus, Evade for almost every round of combat (that matters).

Maarek Stele (TIE Defender) (35)

Predator (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Countess Ryad (34)

Predator (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Determination (1)

Fleet Officer (3)

Mara Jade (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE Shuttle (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Adrenaline Rush might be fun on that bomber as well. It can let you pull a surprise K-Turn or two turn while you have the stress from the previous round's Fleet Officer usage or if you aren't already stressed pull a white K-Turn with your Defender buddies and then be able to use your action on Fleet Officer.

Of course, if they have ways to generate multiple focus tokens then yes, it's not useful. But generally you're getting value from it even if they just spend their focus to reclaim an evade result.

It also drains a focus for other ships in your squad to hit into their unmodified green dice.

I don't get that. Why not? What he says makes sense. Forcing the opponent to spend their Focus on defense is often quite good to ensure that they don't spend it on offense. Or...they don't have it for some other attacker. Also, Col. Vessery (or any other /D Defender) gets to do it with both his attacks. So....if they spend it on one, they aren't on the other.

Why dismiss his comments without even bothering to explain? I clearly think you are wrong to say that Juke "never comes into play" when they spend their Focus for defense.

Ok, I feel that both of you deserve a response so I'll try to do this together. Bear with me.

First, in my eyes, simply spending the focus token does not constitute worth. Take, for instance, if I roll three hits, and my opponent rolls two focus and an evade. Here, making that evade into a focus is useless, as their token was already worth a great deal to spend and they would have done so without my Juking. There are a load of instances in which Juke is not useful enough to justify the points and opportunity cost. Rolling blanks, rolling all focus, having a token they'd already written off as "for defense" (such as one that did not require spending in their own attack if they had higher PS than I do). All in all, I've played about 20 matches using Juke on at least one ship in a squad, and the number of times that it has come into play has been exceedingly low (less than once per match). Now, figure that against Predator, which is only useless if I roll all hits and/or crits. In which case, yay for me. So Juke is only useful if a) I roll hits and b) they roll at least one evade which is not even statistically guaranteed, and c) they have no token to modify with, or they do have one but they really really wanted to save it for some reason. Also, when you quoted me as saying it "never comes into play", you took out the context because I actually said "almost never actually comes into play". Almost never and never are two different things.

Now, on the flip side, since many of the foes my Defenders will face are likely to have higher PS than I do because I'm not the kind of player who vies for the highest PS pilots (and i'm still likely to come in under all the VI Aces anyway), that also means that Juke puts me in the position of having to make my own tough call sometimes, where I have to weight taking 1 damage versus saving my evade token for a possible Juke. Usually, I end up with one unnecessary damage and a good attack roll that didn't need help from Juke to push good damage through. Compare that with predator, where I get to greedily hoard all my precious little greens until I want to spend them, and never have to choose between damage dealt and damage taken.

Beyond that, Juke makes the choice of taking a maneuver like a 1 bank much less attractive, when sometimes that's just the maneuver you need. Not only do I lose my evade token, but also my Juke is gone too. Predator, however, still functions in this instance. You will never kick yourself harder than when you get killed because you took a maneuver you knew you should not have taken, but took anyway because your own squad mechanics talked you into it.

Now granted, I'm not saying Juke is not a good upgrade. It is. But for me, in this squad, the way I play it, it simply does not bring to the table nearly as much as Predator does. And yes, it costs extra points but I feel I'm getting more than my cost's worth. Also, the original prototype squad clocked in at only 96, so I was more than able to justify the extravagancies of an exquisite vintage like Predator.

It's not there to save the pilot ability, but to ignore any Critical Hit with PILOT at the top. So, it's a cheap way to remove critical hits. Not sure what the % of critical hits that are PILOT in the new deck, but it's a cheap extra hull point on a ship that attracts a lot of crits.

You are correct sir. Its effectiveness varies. I've had a few games where it did nothing, in most games it does about 1 damage card (which essentially made it a hull upgrade -2 points), and in some games I've had it shirk three or more damage. It especially shines when I face crit-heavy squads, like Etahn, APTs, Guidance Chimps, and anything else designed to land lots of crits. But the all-out star was taking three crits from Ten Numb, and discarding all three. That's the sort of thing that makes your opponent stop turning hits into crits, and when you force your opponent to stop using his key squad mechanic for one squad point, you're doing something right.

Adrenaline Rush might be fun on that bomber as well. It can let you pull a surprise K-Turn or two turn while you have the stress from the previous round's Fleet Officer usage or if you aren't already stressed pull a white K-Turn with your Defender buddies and then be able to use your action on Fleet Officer.

I see your point, and you're not wrong. But for me, the way I fly this squad, Determination works better because I enjoy flying him like a mini-Oicunn, intent on getting up close and colliding and spending multiple turns blocking ships. In fact, a majority of the games I've played with this squad, I've won, and in almost every one of them the bomber has never fired a shot, or only fired once. Hasn't needed to. And the reason it seems to work, from what I can tell, is that the bomber flies with little to no regard for the conventional rules of this game. He doesn't game for shots, he doesn't try to get you in arc, at a glance his moves look insane or completely without merit. And then somehow, two Defenders come out of nowhere while suddenly your squad can't k-turn and half of them have no tokens at all. If he survives into round 3 of combat, I'm surprised, but by then the damage is usually done because not only is the opponent's squad in shambles or sitting in a poor position, but they've just spend two rounds focusing down a bomber while leaving two very dangerous end-game pieces completely unmolested.

A couple of quick comments:

I agree that juke is worth more to a high PS x7. as you can get the benefit and are free to spend the token for your defence. I'm thinking Rexler, maybe with a fleet officer giving him extra focus tokens.

Tomax Bren with adrenaline rush can white k-turn with the defenders all day long.

Looks like there will be a new Meta

so this would work or you have 1 point to upgrade to a ion canon

I'm still trying to decide if I hold give my x7 Rexlar either Juke, PTL or VI.

I mean, there is a good a good chance that the Vessery has already stripped the focus tokens for Rexlar with his Ion Cannon and primary attack, meaning Juke is essentially minus one evade result for my opponent. Having PTL means he can throw up a target lock for Vessery and still get his focus token, where as Vi will let him move last and shoot first, which would probably be better with Tie/D rather than x7.

He'd be taking TIE mk2 most likely, which increases the value of PTL, since he will be less predictable. The TIE shuttle will be handing out TLs as well, which means it isn't as necessary, meaning Rexlar could use Juke to Be his dice modification.

the easiest was to decide is to play test it and see what works for you

Of course, if they have ways to generate multiple focus tokens then yes, it's not useful. But generally you're getting value from it even if they just spend their focus to reclaim an evade result.

It also drains a focus for other ships in your squad to hit into their unmodified green dice.

I don't get that. Why not? What he says makes sense. Forcing the opponent to spend their Focus on defense is often quite good to ensure that they don't spend it on offense. Or...they don't have it for some other attacker. Also, Col. Vessery (or any other /D Defender) gets to do it with both his attacks. So....if they spend it on one, they aren't on the other.

Why dismiss his comments without even bothering to explain? I clearly think you are wrong to say that Juke "never comes into play" when they spend their Focus for defense.

Ok, I feel that both of you deserve a response so I'll try to do this together. Bear with me.

First, in my eyes, simply spending the focus token does not constitute worth. Take, for instance, if I roll three hits, and my opponent rolls two focus and an evade. Here, making that evade into a focus is useless, as their token was already worth a great deal to spend and they would have done so without my Juking. There are a load of instances in which Juke is not useful enough to justify the points and opportunity cost. Rolling blanks, rolling all focus, having a token they'd already written off as "for defense" (such as one that did not require spending in their own attack if they had higher PS than I do). All in all, I've played about 20 matches using Juke on at least one ship in a squad, and the number of times that it has come into play has been exceedingly low (less than once per match). Now, figure that against Predator, which is only useless if I roll all hits and/or crits. In which case, yay for me. So Juke is only useful if a) I roll hits and b) they roll at least one evade which is not even statistically guaranteed, and c) they have no token to modify with, or they do have one but they really really wanted to save it for some reason. Also, when you quoted me as saying it "never comes into play", you took out the context because I actually said "almost never actually comes into play". Almost never and never are two different things.

Now, on the flip side, since many of the foes my Defenders will face are likely to have higher PS than I do because I'm not the kind of player who vies for the highest PS pilots (and i'm still likely to come in under all the VI Aces anyway), that also means that Juke puts me in the position of having to make my own tough call sometimes, where I have to weight taking 1 damage versus saving my evade token for a possible Juke. Usually, I end up with one unnecessary damage and a good attack roll that didn't need help from Juke to push good damage through. Compare that with predator, where I get to greedily hoard all my precious little greens until I want to spend them, and never have to choose between damage dealt and damage taken.

Beyond that, Juke makes the choice of taking a maneuver like a 1 bank much less attractive, when sometimes that's just the maneuver you need. Not only do I lose my evade token, but also my Juke is gone too. Predator, however, still functions in this instance. You will never kick yourself harder than when you get killed because you took a maneuver you knew you should not have taken, but took anyway because your own squad mechanics talked you into it.

Now granted, I'm not saying Juke is not a good upgrade. It is. But for me, in this squad, the way I play it, it simply does not bring to the table nearly as much as Predator does. And yes, it costs extra points but I feel I'm getting more than my cost's worth. Also, the original prototype squad clocked in at only 96, so I was more than able to justify the extravagancies of an exquisite vintage like Predator.

With an x7, Palpatine boosted, Vessery ability Defender, there is no opportunity cost associated with Juke. I'm already getting 2 free actions a turn plus my normal action.

He's an obvious use of Juke: Your opponent is running U-Boats with Overclocked R4. If they spend a focus to cancel your Juke and still want to keep it (which they're going to do if they want to fire torpedoes) they'll end the turn with double stress after the torpedo has been fired. If they don't cancel your Juke, it's free damage.

It's free damage on Palp Shuttles usually.

Ships that fire before I do don't always do enough damage to strip the evade. If they end up spending their focus before I do then when I get to fire with my Juke evade, I get a free damage.

Now granted, I'm not saying Juke is not a good upgrade. It is. But for me, in this squad, the way I play it, it simply does not bring to the table nearly as much as Predator does. And yes, it costs extra points but I feel I'm getting more than my cost's worth. Also, the original prototype squad clocked in at only 96, so I was more than able to justify the extravagancies of an exquisite vintage like Predator.

OK....that's all good reasons and I understand. I just didn't get the one word "No" response and thought it was a bit curt and dismissive without much reasoning. I think there are a lot of good options and it's a matter of personal preference at the moment.

I'm still trying to decide if I hold give my x7 Rexlar either Juke, PTL or VI.

I mean, there is a good a good chance that the Vessery has already stripped the focus tokens for Rexlar with his Ion Cannon and primary attack, meaning Juke is essentially minus one evade result for my opponent. Having PTL means he can throw up a target lock for Vessery and still get his focus token, where as Vi will let him move last and shoot first, which would probably be better with Tie/D rather than x7.

I don't get this part. Rexlar is PS 8 while Vessery is PS 6. How is Vessery going to strip the tokens for Rexlar?

Veteran Instincts.

Yeah VI is vessery's default choice unless your going ruthlessness but then you don't team him with Rexler.

As for the Juke discussion....you can always set your list up to use Juke and a few other things. Add Sensor Jammer to the Palp Shuttle. Use Carnor Jax in the list. Have a couple of ships with Juke. All of these start to force the opponent to use up their Focus tokens or prevent them from using them. That's when Juke starts to shine.

Of course, it's all personal preference. There are a lot of good EPT options.