The problem I see with ITD/VSD builds is that the most maneuverable ship in your list is still the Interdictor. Reduced speed or not, your still getting flanked. And once a VSD is flanked, it can't be un-flanked.

Between Konstantine, the Interdictor, and spamming nav commands on your Vic's, you should be able to keep your front arcs on target

The problem I see with ITD/VSD builds is that the most maneuverable ship in your list is still the Interdictor. Reduced speed or not, your still getting flanked. And once a VSD is flanked, it can't be un-flanked.

Between Konstantine, the Interdictor, and spamming nav commands on your Vic's, you should be able to keep your front arcs on target

It is true. Even if the opponent Throws slicer tool ships at you, there is a high probability of them dying.

I think one thing people have not considered is that an Interdictor can usually take out a flotilla with little assistance

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

What changes the equation in favor of the VSD is two fold. First, the Interdictor can use three tractor beam effects all on its own. Two, the VSD is less affected by enemy tractor beams (it's used to being flown at slow speed).

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.

It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

I have apparently committed a series of egregious errors to put myself into a situation like that.... I might even go as far as saying that's the worst game of armada that I have ever played...

I have nothing more to add to your post cactusman but I totally agree with your analysis of the limitations of the interdictor.

I love the thing in theory but it's lack of firepower limits it to a support role and in that role and because of its points I'm struggling to imagine how you can still get enough activations, firepower and fighter support to make the interdictor a valid inclusion.

I'm sure someone will come up with something though!

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

I have apparently committed a series of egregious errors to put myself into a situation like that.... I might even go as far as saying that's the worst game of armada that I have ever played...

In one turn I got around your VSDs. Lets say I did another thing: Let's say I threw the Liberty straight down your throat into all three ships. We'll go right up to close range, disgustingly in your favor, right?

Unless you have initiative on me, I still either kill at least one ship, fly through behind your ships, or both. All because of the very real lack of defense on the VSD. The only speed effects you can stack are from the Grav Wells, and Konstantin because the Liberty is a Large ship, and those are still limited range that can be bypassed by the Liberty at high speed.

Re: QTC/Warlord, isn't Needa, TRC, sensorteam, Warlord better?

Four auto-damage at long range, another two for a double arc. The beast costs 95 points though: still cheaper than the QTC vic! (96 points for that variant, and, IMO less effective). Winner, I think, is still Salvation + TRC in terms of the mathy stuff when you do everything per point

When it comes to the speed shenanigans: I think we'll just have to see. Remember how not-effective tractor-beam spam is? I think so much is dependent on deployment, it's really hard to theorycraft out. On the other hand, the fact that these effects can occur all in one activation may result in something completely different.

I want the interdictor simply because it looks cool (from the front, anyway...). I'm wondering now if they stuck it on a medium base, though obviously too big for it, just to avoid the Motti/tractor beam benefit it would get.

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

I have apparently committed a series of egregious errors to put myself into a situation like that.... I might even go as far as saying that's the worst game of armada that I have ever played...

In one turn I got around your VSDs. Lets say I did another thing: Let's say I threw the Liberty straight down your throat into all three ships. We'll go right up to close range, disgustingly in your favor, right?

Unless you have initiative on me, I still either kill at least one ship, fly through behind your ships, or both. All because of the very real lack of defense on the VSD. The only speed effects you can stack are from the Grav Wells, and Konstantin because the Liberty is a Large ship, and those are still limited range that can be bypassed by the Liberty at high speed.

I'm fairly confident that g8's trigger right before you actually move, meaning that if you are set at speed three, you will actually preform a speed two maneuver. How do you, a large base ship, get around my three medium base ships that I am actively maneuvering myself? You act as if your opponent would be doing nothing more threatening to you than trying their darnedest to fly themselves off the board.

Also, you conveniently ignored the rest of the Interdictor build, which will be defending the vsd's from your attacks as well as healing shields that are brought down.

I go take a nap for many an hour and his is what I come back to?

OK, first off thecactusman17, while your argument has logic it is also being done in a vacuum.

Let's go over it, the Liberty could start at 1 and go to 3 (though Titus is a 2 point thing. . . )

Next, you talk about how navigate spam did not work well for the VSD the first 2 waves. Well, while technically true there are many more arguments on this than just that. Navigate spam is am extremely strong move and I would love to test all this with you when Green Knight adds all this to Vassal which I am sure he is hard at work at.

Next, you speak as if the Liberty is going to pass the gunline with ease. Well. . . Not really. A VSD gunline is going to start slow because it does not need speed here, it will watch where you're going to start your turn and they will be there waiting. A Liberty does NOT want to flank. Once those side arcs are exposed, it will not be happy at all.

Yes there is still near 300 points left of the enemy and near 150 left of the VSD fleet. Anything can go there so remember that. Slicer Tools, Demolisher, etc.

Last thing, a VSD Line wants to get into close range with you, not for the black dice but for Target Scramblers. You can roll any number of red dice and those will hurt you every time.

I'm not in a vacuum.

Remember, G-8 does not work beyond speed 5, which is a big problem for the Interdictor. While it might be able to stop the Engine Techs maneuver, that still leaves the Liberty rushing deep into the lines at a target of its choice. And even if it is then slowed down by the G-8 or Konstantin, it will still continue to go forward by a minimum of speed 2 (either by adding speed to counteract, or by pushing forward at speed 1 and triggering Engine Techs) as long as it uses a navigate.

Throw a Tantive 4 or Leia or Comms Net in there if you want to worry about Slicer Tools. It's cool. But after you do so, Rebels will have around 90-100 points left to spend on ships before they even hit their squadron cap. Imperials are pushing 270 with ONLY a Suppression Interdictor with G-8s, 2 VSD-1s, and Konstantin.

Interdictor might boost the VSD strengths a bit by letting them get on target more often, but the weaknesses - terrible navigation chart, immense cost, wonky armament layout, and lack of defensive retrofits - are still there and can still be ruthlessly exploited by most all-comers lists.

Neither does attacking from beyond distance 5 but hey it is what it is.

One way or another (tempted to break out in song here), someone has to get into distance 5. That or no shots are being thrown out and so no one wins. . . Well except second player

Sure, have your Leia. She will be. A lot of play soon. Alas, she can only affect 1 ship, only works properly of she gets to go after the ship in question losses it's dial oh and has the right command that you wanted.

Yup, 271, oh darn. Good thing that is 25 hull, 29 shields and a but load of engineering points. 7 red dice and close range is death. I don't see an issue here.

I think you underestimate the VSD thecactusman17 because you have never seen it in the right hands. I have watched people do amazing things with those ships. Taught myself some tricks, and learned that they are not as weak as you like to think.

Its the anecdotal evidence show again, come see and watch how people throw a friends' of a friend of mines' experiences at each other with little to no effect.

The VSD debate is raging since Lyraeus decided to pick up the empires black swan to tell everybody how it turns into a raging falcon in a skilled players hands. Tournament statistics still have to show this, which either means 90% of tourney players are not skilled enough or decide to invest their skill level into lists which perform even greater and with better failure resistence in the hands of a skilled player.

Wave 3 and 4 bring some things to the table which might help the black swan, namely the interdoctor to help the poor guy restoring shields after not being able to unlock his ACC'd brace token, and speed control. Konstantine, G8 etc. are all not limited in the way tractor beams are and will help a VSD to actually keep something in the front arc for long.

Mind that the rebels get new toys as well..

Its the anecdotal evidence show again, come see and watch how people throw a friends' of a friend of mines' experiences at each other with little to no effect.

The VSD debate is raging since Lyraeus decided to pick up the empires black swan to tell everybody how it turns into a raging falcon in a skilled players hands. Tournament statistics still have to show this, which either means 90% of tourney players are not skilled enough or decide to invest their skill level into lists which perform even greater and with better failure resistence in the hands of a skilled player.

Wave 3 and 4 bring some things to the table which might help the black swan, namely the interdoctor to help the poor guy restoring shields after not being able to unlock his ACC'd brace token, and speed control. Konstantine, G8 etc. are all not limited in the way tractor beams are and will help a VSD to actually keep something in the front arc for long.

Mind that the rebels get new toys as well..

It is hard to do anything but sadly.

Skill doesnt matter in this game as much as people think. The biggest skills you can have is learning from your mistakes, having an open mind, and being able to have a little foresight. Other than those, it is all experience.

The only way I could show this would be on either vassal or on a table. VSD's have an impressive ability at speed 1. Due to their horrendous speed chart, they need to usually be going 1 to do their work. The only times I have chosen to go up to speed 2 was to Fork a crowd of ships. Even then, slowing down is a priority at that point.

You say that 90% of tournament players are not skilled? I dont know about that. I think that their experiences have been down different paths. I personally have found that playing with all ships at times has changed my outlook on how certain things work. It is not always about the numbers. It can come down to your deployment just as much. Sometimes your commands.

I did ok in my two regionals. Made top 4 in one and was 9th in my second. Still a bit bitter about the 9th place slot since TOME doesn't follow the tournament rules. . . but next year it will hopefully be fixed.

Having an open mind is more important in armada, I think than almost any skill. It can change a bad situation around, it can show you different ways of doing things.

As always, test. Test, test, test, test. Don't just pick up a list and play it thinking that it will win because of some experiences you have had with those ships in the past. This game does not work that way. Instead, test what you are building. Test, test, and test some more. THAT is the only way to get better in this game.

I agree with testing.

I mean, hey, we recently had the "Are Raider's useless" thread. See how that one turned out. No one doubts 4 raiders and Demo now. That guy literally took 4 Raiders and made them useful in the best way he could. And after playing against that list, ****, its a tough list.

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.

It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

This is a great analysis certainly. It reminds me of Matt Shadowlords "Demolisher Eating Yavaris" thread of Wave 1.

Its certainly a credible threat, but its fairly generic in that an ISD would be just as dead in place of the victories (maybe with one extra turn of survival, but once outmanouvered its not getting back into the fight), and just as deadly in the place of the Liberty (excepting engine techs).

The relevant factors (just as in the Demo eating Yavaris thread), are activation order, first player advantage and activation advantage. For Wave 3/4, add command/token availability and selection.

If the victories are deployed well and out activate Liberty they can turn bracket it coming in.

Of course, Victories also still suffer from having huge difficulty bracing and extreme vulnerability to Xi7s. Against almost any large ship, VSD is dead in two shots. With gunnery teams, that can easily result in TWO dead VSDs in two shots.

Many factors!

I would like to side with Lyraeus here with the VSDs, but I don't want to continue the argument, so I will leave this:

This is a game about skill. This is a game about planning and anticipating the moves of the opponent. Whether a Liberty is going to successfully flank a VSD that is within earshot of a Interdictor depends on whether the Rebel player can anticipate where the VSDs move and maneuver to flank without its side arc being caught in the front arc of a VSD (or another ship) and whether the Imperial player can see the flank coming and maneuver to counter it.

Both outcomes are possible. Player skill matters.

EDIT: Wrote this waaay too slow. Beaten by Ophion

I thought about it, and the VSD-II is one of the only carrier ships in the game right now to mount an ion cannon with a high squadron command value. I'd like to see what the new flight commander can do on an Overload Pulse VSD with Expanded Hangars and a full kit of TIE Bombers. Take Screed and you can kick that every time. Take initative and you can do it first. VSDs can also take flight controllers, so if they try to tie up your fighters, activating them could give all those bombers two dice to fight back.

Thing is, the MC80 and Liberty can do this trick also, and be more dangerous about it... though for more points.

I thought about it, and the VSD-II is one of the only carrier ships in the game right now to mount an ion cannon with a high squadron command value. I'd like to see what the new flight commander can do on an Overload Pulse VSD with Expanded Hangars and a full kit of TIE Bombers. Take Screed and you can kick that every time. Take initative and you can do it first. VSDs can also take flight controllers, so if they try to tie up your fighters, activating them could give all those bombers two dice to fight back.

Thing is, the MC80 and Liberty can do this trick also, and be more dangerous about it... though for more points.

The VSD 2 gets a bad rap I think. The average is 5 damage which means it is perfect for Xi7 as well as the Warlord and H9 combo.

The VSD is a great back line threat. It can turn as needed and when it gets in it will hurt what it aims at.

I would like to side with Lyraeus here with the VSDs, but I don't want to continue the argument, so I will leave this:

This is a game about skill. This is a game about planning and anticipating the moves of the opponent. Whether a Liberty is going to successfully flank a VSD that is within earshot of a Interdictor depends on whether the Rebel player can anticipate where the VSDs move and maneuver to flank without its side arc being caught in the front arc of a VSD (or another ship) and whether the Imperial player can see the flank coming and maneuver to counter it.

Both outcomes are possible. Player skill matters.

EDIT: Wrote this waaay too slow. Beaten by Ophion

Valid points.

THe game is not set into stone. This is not 40k where X List always wins over Y list, this is not X-Wing, this is Armada. As such it has its own balance and way of thought. It is up to us as players to be open minded so that we can learn and grow.

Its the anecdotal evidence show again, come see and watch how people throw a friends' of a friend of mines' experiences at each other with little to no effect.

The VSD debate is raging since Lyraeus decided to pick up the empires black swan to tell everybody how it turns into a raging falcon in a skilled players hands. Tournament statistics still have to show this, which either means 90% of tourney players are not skilled enough or decide to invest their skill level into lists which perform even greater and with better failure resistence in the hands of a skilled player.

Wave 3 and 4 bring some things to the table which might help the black swan, namely the interdoctor to help the poor guy restoring shields after not being able to unlock his ACC'd brace token, and speed control. Konstantine, G8 etc. are all not limited in the way tractor beams are and will help a VSD to actually keep something in the front arc for long.

Mind that the rebels get new toys as well..

It is hard to do anything but sadly.

Skill doesnt matter in this game as much as people think. The biggest skills you can have is learning from your mistakes, having an open mind, and being able to have a little foresight. Other than those, it is all experience.

The only way I could show this would be on either vassal or on a table. VSD's have an impressive ability at speed 1. Due to their horrendous speed chart, they need to usually be going 1 to do their work. The only times I have chosen to go up to speed 2 was to Fork a crowd of ships. Even then, slowing down is a priority at that point.

You say that 90% of tournament players are not skilled? I dont know about that. I think that their experiences have been down different paths. I personally have found that playing with all ships at times has changed my outlook on how certain things work. It is not always about the numbers. It can come down to your deployment just as much. Sometimes your commands.

I did ok in my two regionals. Made top 4 in one and was 9th in my second. Still a bit bitter about the 9th place slot since TOME doesn't follow the tournament rules. . . but next year it will hopefully be fixed.

Having an open mind is more important in armada, I think than almost any skill. It can change a bad situation around, it can show you different ways of doing things.

As always, test. Test, test, test, test. Don't just pick up a list and play it thinking that it will win because of some experiences you have had with those ships in the past. This game does not work that way. Instead, test what you are building. Test, test, and test some more. THAT is the only way to get better in this game.

I did not say that 90% of tourney players are not skilled, it was one option - albeit ironic - of two to explain the difference between tourney statistics and your crusade for VSDs.

I agree with the testing (testing, testing, testing..) part however. My totaly unelaborated, unbacked guess is that the VSD will not see a renaissance with waves 3+4, even though I would like to see it happen.

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.

It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

This is a great analysis certainly. It reminds me of Matt Shadowlords "Demolisher Eating Yavaris" thread of Wave 1.

Its certainly a credible threat, but its fairly generic in that an ISD would be just as dead in place of the victories (maybe with one extra turn of survival, but once outmanouvered its not getting back into the fight), and just as deadly in the place of the Liberty (excepting engine techs).

The relevant factors (just as in the Demo eating Yavaris thread), are activation order, first player advantage and activation advantage. For Wave 3/4, add command/token availability and selection.

If the victories are deployed well and out activate Liberty they can turn bracket it coming in.

Of course, Victories also still suffer from having huge difficulty bracing and extreme vulnerability to Xi7s. Against almost any large ship, VSD is dead in two shots. With gunnery teams, that can easily result in TWO dead VSDs in two shots.

Many factors!

Let's go ahead and get one critically obvious thing out of the way: The difference between the VSD and the ISD is that the VSD can be completely shut down by an accuracy/X1-7 combo and the ISD can't.

That said, even in those cases where the ISD can be shut down for defense, there are major differences. The ISD is drastically more maneuverable, faster, has more shields and hull, has a more powerful weapons loadout, has better titles, has better upgrade slots, and most importantly of all can flank that same VSD.

The VSD will NEVER flank an ISD. Ever. Just not possible for a semi-competent commander. the same commander who could plan to preserve all their VSDs for a round would no doubt do better with ISDs, GSDs, even triple ITDs with the right options and play style.

Again, let me restate my conclusions because they seem to have been missed or forgotten: The Interdictor boosts the strengths of VSDs, but the weaknessees of VSDs are not mitigated. And the weaknesses of VSDs are vastly more numerous and definitive than their strengths in a post-core game.

Just so we can all understand what I'm approaching this from:

The lack of Defensive Retrofits means that a single accuracy can double the damage against your ship, or lose same to Intel Officers and similar abilities.

The Navigation chart means that you must be facing off against other jousters to keep them in your most important firing arc, and therefore must use the navigation command almost exclusively

The cost is far in excess of other ships and squadrons performing the same combination of dice attacks commands, or maneuvers.

The maneuver chart means that a ship that successfully flanks to your rear arc cannot be dislodged unless brought to a consistent and complete standstill.

I'm reminded of the X-Wing Imperial Shuttle. Yes, the shuttle is useful for one major purpose (usually transporting a certain Imperial bigwig in a cost-efficient fashion) but relying on it to actually perform in combat outsde of one assigned role is rarely going to be more than a comical aside to the real fight.

OK, first off no an ITD is not a magical Flotilla killing machine. By that same argument you could spend half the points on a Raider and mathematically should be able to do even better.

Second, yes if you spam navigate commands you can turn faster on a VSD. How well did that work for improving VSDs over the last three waves? Oh right it didn't even after the inclusion of tractor beams.

My argument is this only: the core weaknesses of the VSD have not magically disappeared. You still have to build and fly with them firmly in mind. And the ITD does not significantly mitigate those core weaknesses outside of the ship speed.

Of course they haven't dissapeared, but I feel you are greatly underestimating the power of stacking that many movement control effects. A ship going speed four can be brought down to one or lower (temporarily). How do you plan on flanking a ship when you are going speed one, and I can have two clicks of yaw going speed 1 with a dial?

How many movement effects have you actually cancelled though?

All your movement shenanigans don't start until said ship is at Distance 5, and we know how that worked with Demolisher.

But Imps are easy to talk about thanks to Ozzel. Let's throw the new Liberty at you.

Liberty with General Madine and Raymus Antilles decides to attack you. It is equipped with Mon Karren and X1-7 turbolasers, and Engine Techs to make it speed 4. It's facing off against an Interdictor and 2 Victories, armed and outfitted to your preference for an all-comers fleet, and Admiral Konstantin.

Liberty starts off and approaches at low speed, and begins the engagement by accelerating from speed 1 to 3 from just outside of distance 5, or at distance 5 of only one VSD. It accelerates to full speed and Engine Techs. Because of a double turn at speed 3, and then a single click at 1 for Engine Techs, it ends its maneuver in the side arc of the nearest ship.

It is now entirely out of the front arc of either VSD, and likely obstructed from the ITD.

it is now potentially slowed down by only two effects: G-8 Grav Projectors, and Konstantin. The problem is that with Raymus, this is irrelevant because a single maneuver can reassert any speed desired to the Liberty, plus Engine Techs.

This is a single ship. This single ship has now utterly destroyed your ships of the line. It is exposed only to the weakest arcs of its targets, with 5 shields on it's facing hull. A single accuracy will lock down your brace and the redirects are irrelevant. The chances of this not ending in a complete wipe of those three ships is almost impossible without huge fighter support killing the Liberty immediately.

But go ahead and try to convince me that those VSDs are going to stay useful. Because we haven't even gotten to the other 250 points of the Rebel fleet yet.

This is a great analysis certainly. It reminds me of Matt Shadowlords "Demolisher Eating Yavaris" thread of Wave 1.

Its certainly a credible threat, but its fairly generic in that an ISD would be just as dead in place of the victories (maybe with one extra turn of survival, but once outmanouvered its not getting back into the fight), and just as deadly in the place of the Liberty (excepting engine techs).

The relevant factors (just as in the Demo eating Yavaris thread), are activation order, first player advantage and activation advantage. For Wave 3/4, add command/token availability and selection.

If the victories are deployed well and out activate Liberty they can turn bracket it coming in.

Of course, Victories also still suffer from having huge difficulty bracing and extreme vulnerability to Xi7s. Against almost any large ship, VSD is dead in two shots. With gunnery teams, that can easily result in TWO dead VSDs in two shots.

Many factors!

Let's go ahead and get one critically obvious thing out of the way: The difference between the VSD and the ISD is that the VSD can be completely shut down by an accuracy/X1-7 combo and the ISD can't.

That said, even in those cases where the ISD can be shut down for defense, there are major differences. The ISD is drastically more maneuverable, faster, has more shields and hull, has a more powerful weapons loadout, has better titles, has better upgrade slots, and most importantly of all can flank that same VSD.

The VSD will NEVER flank an ISD. Ever. Just not possible for a semi-competent commander. the same commander who could plan to preserve all their VSDs for a round would no doubt do better with ISDs, GSDs, even triple ITDs with the right options and play style.

Again, let me restate my conclusions because they seem to have been missed or forgotten: The Interdictor boosts the strengths of VSDs, but the weaknessees of VSDs are not mitigated. And the weaknesses of VSDs are vastly more numerous and definitive than their strengths in a post-core game.

Just so we can all understand what I'm approaching this from:

The lack of Defensive Retrofits means that a single accuracy can double the damage against your ship, or lose same to Intel Officers and similar abilities.

The Navigation chart means that you must be facing off against other jousters to keep them in your most important firing arc, and therefore must use the navigation command almost exclusively

The cost is far in excess of other ships and squadrons performing the same combination of dice attacks commands, or maneuvers.

The maneuver chart means that a ship that successfully flanks to your rear arc cannot be dislodged unless brought to a consistent and complete standstill.

I'm reminded of the X-Wing Imperial Shuttle. Yes, the shuttle is useful for one major purpose (usually transporting a certain Imperial bigwig in a cost-efficient fashion) but relying on it to actually perform in combat outsde of one assigned role is rarely going to be more than a comical aside to the real fight.

At this point you are being Foolish.

The ISD has 2 more shields and 3 more hull than a base VSD.

Lets compare points

110 for an ISD 1 vs 73

Differences? Well the ISD 1 gets 1 more Offensive Retrofit, has 2 blue die in the front, 1 extra black die on the sides, 2 blue die on the rear replacing the one of the reds a VSD has, and 1 black die in addition to the blue die a VSD has. Oh and the ISD has a contain, has an Ion slot instead of a Missile slot, 1 more squadron and is a large base

So for all of that as well as the movement differences (talked on later), that is 37 points between the 2.

Seems reasonable. Lets look at the 2 variants.

ISD2 120pts, VSD2 85: 35 points in difference.

Now HERE is the only part where the ISD can survive an Accuracy. Well the only Imperial ship with a Defensive Retrofit. Other than that the other changes are that it has 1 more red and blue die on the front and side while the rear does not change from the ISD 1, it has the same Squadron value as the VSD, same command, engineering, 1 more blue die against squadrons, 3 ore hull, 2 more shields, and a contain. It is on a large base vs medium

35 points for all that. Almost always worth it if you are taking ECM's but that just makes it 42 points in difference. Half way to a second VSD 2. . .

Movement.

VSD is max speed 2 with the chart being 1 click at speed 1 and 0, 1 clicks for speed 2.

ISD is max speed 3 with a chart that is 1 click at 1; 1, 1 at speed 2; and 0, 1, 1 at speed 3.

Now here is an interesting difference. One that most players might of cried out already. The Arcs! The ISD has a MUCH narrower arc allowing for easy arc dodging where as the VSD has a wider arc and thus can only need to turn a little to still maintain a shot in the following turn.

Titles!

Dominator vs Devastator. . . so death vs death. . . hmmmm Sorry Dominator has this one. I would rather lose shields which can now be repaired for free with my Interdoctor and be able to use the ability on ANY attack from any arc at any target than have the 1 big shot that is determined by how many defense tokens I have spent. Something that may not ever bear fruit.

Relentless vs. . . I guess Warlord. So 2 command dials are nice. Though they matter far less now with the advent of Slicer tools so that is moot. Warlord however can give me free double hits? really? Add H9's and I just need to make sure my blanks are minimal. Hmmm Screed works there

Corrupter vs Avenger. . . hmmm, So corrupter is a constant benefit to all my squadron commands while Avenger really needs to be set up and is predictable since it wont usually EVER be going first . . .

Yea, VSD wins the titles on that one. All 3 are always useful since they are assitance to a build and not always what you build around.

The only major difference between the VSD and ISD is honestly the Defensive Retrofit. Speed 3 is negligible since most who use that speed often learn that it is a trap more often than naught. That Defensive Retrofit helps the ISD out a lot but at the same time it is easy to get around. Sure you have ECM's, thats nice, after the first accuracy that ECM's is useless for the turn. Oh, we have MS-1 Ions now. . . maybe you will get that ECM's maybe you wont. . . who knows.

Well lets head back to movement. How many people see Speed 3 ISD's consistently? I don't. Speed 2 is usually their average and even then it is not always fully utilizing their chart. Don't get me wrong, speed 3 is useful but more often than naught it is a trap. I know that DtO enjoys those speed 3 ISD's since they are always moving into my shots for me.

Look you can compare apples to oranges all day long but in the end it is settled on the table. Will the ISD outflank the VSD, maybe. Maybe not. That depends on the user of the VSD.