Just finished reading through all the previous Dengar posts, and the last discussion dried up in early April. In the specific case of Dengar without initiative being killed by a same-PS enemy ship, does he get a shot from his pilot ability after defending and then get to attack when he is activated later for his normal attack? I think we all agree the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps him on the table, and while he's on the table his ability is still active:

Rules Reference, page 17, Simultaneous Attack Rule said

During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed. If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area.

• Even if the ship did not have a valid target for an attack, it is removed after its opportunity to attack passes.
• While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active.
• After a ship has resolved its opportunity to attack, before it is destroyed, it can resolve any abilities that trigger after performing an attack.

I believe the sticking point from here becomes the use of "opportunity to attack" in the rule - does Dengar's pilot ability constitute an "opportunity to attack"? I say no, because the phrase "opportunity to attack" used here refers to when the ship activates during the combat phase. I use Frank's email ruling on the Zeb crew below as confirmation of this:

Hello Pete,

2 points from this email. First, Frank directly answers the question "Is performing an attack synonymous with activating?" with a no. Second, t he last sentence seems to confirm that attacks performed based on title cards and pilot abilities are "outside of activation". If so, in the title case above:

1. Imperial player has initiative

2. PS 9 Soontir kills PS 9 Dengar with his attack.

3. PS 9 Soontir is in Dengar's arc so Dengar returns fire after defending per his ability

4. With no other PS 9 Imperial pilots on the board, PS 9 Dengar now gets to activate for combat

5. Dengar may fire at Soontir or any other available target

6. After his attack is complete, Dengar is destroyed and removed from the board

Thoughts?

No one know for sure but I believe that under the current rules, Dengar can use either his counter attack or regular attack and then is removed from the board.

The simultaneous attack rules state that a ship being kept alive by the simultaneous attack rule is removed from play once it has had an opportunity to attack. The ruling in the FAQ for for Corran Horn and Blinded Pilot establishes that out of activation attacks count as an opportunity to attack.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/223204-dengar-and-simultaneous-fire-at-us-nationals/

I hope that link works. This demonstrates how FFG ruled it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/223204-dengar-and-simultaneous-fire-at-us-nationals/

I hope that link works. This demonstrates how FFG ruled it.

I'm kind of unclear what the actual call they made was as it sounded like there was another conversation going on over the audio of the commentators. It kind of sounded like the commentators were discussing what would happen and then someone thought about something for a second and made a quick judgement call and said that there should be no debate.

I'm not sure who it was talking and I couldn't quite make out everything that they said.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought. Was there an "actual" judgement made? I couldn't tell if there was a TO call or whether it was conversation or commentary.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

So would Gunner not get to be used on a ship that is attacking only because of Simultaneous Fire?

So would Gunner not get to be used on a ship that is attacking only because of Simultaneous Fire?

Gunner would get to trigger because the simultaneous fire rules state that you are allowed to resolve any "after attacking" effects that are triggered by your final attack before being removed from the board.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

That's Not defining the attacks, that's defining the timing of your ship's activation. An attack is still an attack.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

That's Not defining the attacks, that's defining the timing of your ship's activation. An attack is still an attack.

" any other attacks outside of your activation" has nothing to do with activation timing though... activation timing is based on PS and initiative.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

No, that just establishes that attacks made outside of your ship's normal activation do not make you the active ship. As I mentioned before, look at the FAQ entry regarding Corran Horn and Blinded Pilot:

FAQ, pg. 6:

"Corran Horn can use his ability at the start of the End

At nationals, this was ruled as described above by OP. If Soontir has init, Dengar gets counter attack and regular attack. If Dengar has init, and is destroyed by Soontir, he gets no further attack.

FFG is clearly trying to work through all the possible scenarios, which is why this hasn't yet been added to the FAQ. Until then, speculating won't do much good, as this will simply have to be ruled on by each TO.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

No, that just establishes that attacks made outside of your ship's normal activation do not make you the active ship. As I mentioned before, look at the FAQ entry regarding Corran Horn and Blinded Pilot:

FAQ, pg. 6:

"Corran Horn can use his ability at the start of the End

phase in order to flip this card facedown. If he does so,

he does not perform an attack and cannot attack next

round."

Blinded Pilot requires an opportunity to attack. Corran Horn's end phase attack is an out of activation attack. Corran's ability can flip down Blinded Pilot. That pretty clearly establishes out of activation attacks as still counting as opportunities to attack.

That's my whole point though...I don't think the Simultaneous Attack Rule refers to "an" opportunity to attack, I believe it refers to "the" opportunity to attack during combat activation.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

No, that just establishes that attacks made outside of your ship's normal activation do not make you the active ship. As I mentioned before, look at the FAQ entry regarding Corran Horn and Blinded Pilot:

FAQ, pg. 6:

"Corran Horn can use his ability at the start of the End

phase in order to flip this card facedown. If he does so,

he does not perform an attack and cannot attack next

round."

Blinded Pilot requires an opportunity to attack. Corran Horn's end phase attack is an out of activation attack. Corran's ability can flip down Blinded Pilot. That pretty clearly establishes out of activation attacks as still counting as opportunities to attack.

That's my whole point though...I don't think the Simultaneous Attack Rule refers to "an" opportunity to attack, I believe it refers to "the" opportunity to attack during combat activation.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

No, that just establishes that attacks made outside of your ship's normal activation do not make you the active ship. As I mentioned before, look at the FAQ entry regarding Corran Horn and Blinded Pilot:

FAQ, pg. 6:

"Corran Horn can use his ability at the start of the End

phase in order to flip this card facedown. If he does so,

he does not perform an attack and cannot attack next

round."

Blinded Pilot requires an opportunity to attack. Corran Horn's end phase attack is an out of activation attack. Corran's ability can flip down Blinded Pilot. That pretty clearly establishes out of activation attacks as still counting as opportunities to attack.

That's my whole point though...I don't think the Simultaneous Attack Rule refers to "an" opportunity to attack, I believe it refers to "the" opportunity to attack during combat activation.

It refers to any Attack performed by the ship, because the rules don't define a difference between attacks with different timings. You can't assume anything that is not outlined in the rules.

The first line should be our point of reference:

Rules Reference, page 17, Simultaneous Attack Rule said

During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed.

This is clearly referring to the attack made when the ship activates for combat. Based on Frank's reference to attacks "inside" & "outside" activation, and the ruling at nationals I believe it's now clear that the use of the words "an opportunity" in the remainder of the text for the Simultaneous Attack Rule refers to "the opportunity" in the first line. "T he opportunity" is the attack made when the ship activates for combat. It's an unfortunate ambiguation, but this does still allow for the same blinded pilot ruling on Corran - his end phase shot is "an" opportunity to attack, but not "the" opportunity to attack when he activated for combat. In our case, Dengar's revenge shot is "an" opportunity to attack, but not "the" opportunity to attack when he activated for combat.

The game does not differentiate between attacks and extra attacks. As far as the rules are concerned, an attack is an attack. Therefore, either of the attacks Dengar can perform satisfy the Simultaneous Attack Rule, and he cannot perform both of them. After the first attack you choose to perform, he is removed from the table.

In Frank's email above he differentiated between attacks "inside" & "outside" activation...

This means that the Phantom’s attack at the end of the Combat phase, Corran Horn’s ability, Dengar ’s ability, and for any other attacks outside of your activation, you count as touching.

So while I don't think we've confirmed that this directly applies here, I do believe this disproves the "an attack is an attack" notion.

No, that just establishes that attacks made outside of your ship's normal activation do not make you the active ship. As I mentioned before, look at the FAQ entry regarding Corran Horn and Blinded Pilot:

FAQ, pg. 6:

"Corran Horn can use his ability at the start of the End

phase in order to flip this card facedown. If he does so,

he does not perform an attack and cannot attack next

round."

Blinded Pilot requires an opportunity to attack. Corran Horn's end phase attack is an out of activation attack. Corran's ability can flip down Blinded Pilot. That pretty clearly establishes out of activation attacks as still counting as opportunities to attack.

That's my whole point though...I don't think the Simultaneous Attack Rule refers to "an" opportunity to attack, I believe it refers to "the" opportunity to attack during combat activation.

It refers to any Attack performed by the ship, because the rules don't define a difference between attacks with different timings. You can't assume anything that is not outlined in the rules.

The first line should be our point of reference:

Rules Reference, page 17, Simultaneous Attack Rule said

During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed.

This is clearly referring to the attack made when the ship activates for combat. Based on Frank's reference to attacks "inside" & "outside" activation, and the ruling at nationals I believe it's now clear that the use of the words "an opportunity" in the remainder of the text for the Simultaneous Attack Rule refers to "the opportunity" in the first line. "T he opportunity" is the attack made when the ship activates for combat. It's an unfortunate ambiguation, but this does still allow for the same blinded pilot ruling on Corran - his end phase shot is "an" opportunity to attack, but not "the" opportunity to attack when he activated for combat. In our case, Dengar's revenge shot is "an" opportunity to attack, but not "the" opportunity to attack when he activated for combat.

I don't see anything that leads me to believe that the usage of "the" is referring to a singular opportunity to attack. It could be used interchangeable with "an" in that sentence.

"Everyone should have the opportunity to see Paris" is the same thing as "Everyone should have an opportunity to see Paris".

At the time the Simultaneous Attack rules were written that there was no way to have an opportunity to attack outside of a ship's normal activation. It's entirely likely that the intent is that simultaneous attacks were meant to ensure that a destroyed ships gets to activate in the combat phase if destroyed while a ship with the same PS is active. However, that's not what the rules say and it seems to be a huge stretch to try to interpret them that way.

When suspected intent contradicts the written rules, I'm going prefer doing what the rules say to do.

I don't see anything that leads me to believe that the usage of "the" is referring to a singular opportunity to attack. It could be used interchangeable with "an" in that sentence.

"Everyone should have the opportunity to see Paris" is the same thing as "Everyone should have an opportunity to see Paris".

But you have to look at the language in context (and remember that it is part of a self-contained rule set - not a generic statement). The rules relating to a destroyed ship remaining in play are meant to prevent that ship from losing its opportunity to attack. You should be skeptical of the conclusion that an unrelated future rule removes the benefit of a ship destroyed by another with an equal pilot based on a technicality.

There is an ambiguity. In my interpretation, the "the" quoted in a previous post is sufficient to make the language, at a minimum, unclear. The designers could have used "an," but they did not.

At nationals, this was ruled as described above by OP. If Soontir has init, Dengar gets counter attack and regular attack. If Dengar has init, and is destroyed by Soontir, he gets no further attack.

FFG is clearly trying to work through all the possible scenarios, which is why this hasn't yet been added to the FAQ. Until then, speculating won't do much good, as this will simply have to be ruled on by each TO.

That is how I understand it SHOULD be.

My impression of simultaneous fire has always been that the ship that would be destroyed gets to stick around until it would act during during the give PS firing window. If something else happens to it or it does something during that window it is all incidental.

Although here we're looking at Dengar making an attack in that zombie phase I see it much like I'd look at Biggs during a similar situation. He may be on the way out but if he's still around due to Simultaneous Fire rules then he's still completely there and everything about him must be enforce. With Biggs that would mean you have to shoot at him if the rules would call for it even if he's already dead so with Dengar that may mean a retributive attack flies your way.

I don't see anything that leads me to believe that the usage of "the" is referring to a singular opportunity to attack. It could be used interchangeable with "an" in that sentence.

"Everyone should have the opportunity to see Paris" is the same thing as "Everyone should have an opportunity to see Paris".

But you have to look at the language in context (and remember that it is part of a self-contained rule set - not a generic statement). The rules relating to a destroyed ship remaining in play are meant to prevent that ship from losing its opportunity to attack. You should be skeptical of the conclusion that an unrelated future rule removes the benefit of a ship destroyed by another with an equal pilot based on a technicality.

There is an ambiguity. In my interpretation, the "the" quoted in a previous post is sufficient to make the language, at a minimum, unclear. The designers could have used "an," but they did not.

There is nothing in the context of that paragraph that refers to a specific opportunity to attack though.

I don't see anything that leads me to believe that the usage of "the" is referring to a singular opportunity to attack. It could be used interchangeable with "an" in that sentence.

"Everyone should have the opportunity to see Paris" is the same thing as "Everyone should have an opportunity to see Paris".

But you have to look at the language in context (and remember that it is part of a self-contained rule set - not a generic statement). The rules relating to a destroyed ship remaining in play are meant to prevent that ship from losing its opportunity to attack. You should be skeptical of the conclusion that an unrelated future rule removes the benefit of a ship destroyed by another with an equal pilot based on a technicality.

There is an ambiguity. In my interpretation, the "the" quoted in a previous post is sufficient to make the language, at a minimum, unclear. The designers could have used "an," but they did not.

There is nothing in the context of that paragraph that refers to a specific opportunity to attack though.

Except the word 'the,' which, as you know if you are a native english speaker, can be used to a unique instance of something.

Think of it like this:

Did that guy get eaten by THE dinosaur?

Did that guy get eaten by A dinosaur?

The first is referring to a specific dinosaur, meaning that an affirmative response would require that the exact dinosaur that the asker is referring to. For the second, any dinosaur would do. Going back to the first, there is no need for the asker to explicitly state which dinosaur it is referring to as the context makes it clear that there is only one dinosaur that is the subject of the question. Similarly in the main rules, as far as I know, there is only one opportunity to attack that is listed.

Most importantly, FFG could have written the relevant rule to read "AN opportunity to attack" as opposed to "THE opportunity to attack."

I believe that the rules heavily favor being interpreted to ignore Dengar's extra attack for the purpose of simultaneous fire. Again, the handling of this interaction pursuant to the rules is ambiguous at best.

Yup. Both sides have strong arguments, RAW is unclear, maybe we could all stop getting antagonistic to one another and patiently wait for an FAQ.

I know, it does seem unlikely.

At the time the Simultaneous Attack rules were written that there was no way to have an opportunity to attack outside of a ship's normal activation. It's entirely likely that the intent is that simultaneous attacks were meant to ensure that a destroyed ships gets to activate in the combat phase if destroyed while a ship with the same PS is active. However, that's not what the rules say and it seems to be a huge stretch to try to interpret them that way.

When suspected intent contradicts the written rules, I'm going prefer doing what the rules say to do.

Based on the (granted anecdotal) evidence I've provided I really feel that your interpretation is a much larger stretch. But to each his own.

At nationals, this was ruled as described above by OP. If Soontir has init, Dengar gets counter attack and regular attack. If Dengar has init, and is destroyed by Soontir, he gets no further attack.

FFG is clearly trying to work through all the possible scenarios, which is why this hasn't yet been added to the FAQ. Until then, speculating won't do much good, as this will simply have to be ruled on by each TO.

That is how I understand it SHOULD be.

My impression of simultaneous fire has always been that the ship that would be destroyed gets to stick around until it would act during during the give PS firing window. If something else happens to it or it does something during that window it is all incidental.

Although here we're looking at Dengar making an attack in that zombie phase I see it much like I'd look at Biggs during a similar situation. He may be on the way out but if he's still around due to Simultaneous Fire rules then he's still completely there and everything about him must be enforce. With Biggs that would mean you have to shoot at him if the rules would call for it even if he's already dead so with Dengar that may mean a retributive attack flies your way.

Very well said. Interpreting Dengar not getting his revenge shot without initiative at the same PS really contradicts many other interactions.