I know that this question is about XX9s specifically, but realistically this same question will trigger for any combination of a critical dealing a face up damage card and the Standard Critical Effect.

Again, this question goes past FAQs and needs an errata to one or more game rules or cards. This Errata needs to specifically address how critical effects that deal damage cards are counted during the resolve damage step of the phase and whether they count as the first damage cards dealt by the attack.

I know that this question is about XX9s specifically, but realistically this same question will trigger for any combination of a critical dealing a face up damage card and the Standard Critical Effect.

Again, this question goes past FAQs and needs an errata to one or more game rules or cards. This Errata needs to specifically address how critical effects that deal damage cards are counted during the resolve damage step of the phase and whether they count as the first damage cards dealt by the attack.

But why? We already know how cards like ACM and APT work. Why this need to clarify now? Nothing has changed.

I'm sure I'm missing something, I usually am when I feel complex stuff I simple :-D

ACM/APT + XX-9

Critical Effects

A critical effect, denoted by the “ :” header, can resolve if there is at least one icon in the attack pool.

• The attacker can resolve only one critical effect per attack.

• The attacker does not spend a die icon to resolve a critical effect unless the effect says otherwise.

• Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

• The standard critical effect is “ : If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

Fire-Control Team

During the Resolve Damage Step, you may exhaust this card to resolve 1 additional critical effect. You cannot resolve the same critical effect twice.

XX-9 Turbolasers

: The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup.

ACM

Black : Each hull zone adjacent to the defending hull zone suffers 1 damage.

APT

Black : Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender.

Damage from ACM (which COULD result in face-down cards) is NOT part of the determine total damage part of an attack, but a separate CRITICAL EFFECT. Same goes for APT (1 face-up). Resolving either has no bearing on XX-9; the first 2 cards dealt by the attack will be face-up.

I disagree with your assessment on ACMs and the Standard critical effect and XX-9's.

The reason is because you are saying that a critical effect is not part of the attack.

Which is wrong becuase Critical Effects happen right after Defense Tokens are spent but before damage is resolved.

No where in the Standard Critical Effect or XX-9 does it state that it has to be damage dealt from the damage on the Dice.

Oh, and Timing is important here, so if you ACM and then use XX-9, it would not recognize any damage dealt from ACMs because that would have already resolved. Thus the card would treat all following damage to the hull as the first damage.

ACM/APT + XX-9

Critical Effects

A critical effect, denoted by the “ :” header, can resolve if there is at least one icon in the attack pool.

• The attacker can resolve only one critical effect per attack.

• The attacker does not spend a die icon to resolve a critical effect unless the effect says otherwise.

• Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

• The standard critical effect is “ : If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

Fire-Control Team

During the Resolve Damage Step, you may exhaust this card to resolve 1 additional critical effect. You cannot resolve the same critical effect twice.

XX-9 Turbolasers

: The first 2 damage cards dealt to the defender by this attack are dealt faceup.

ACM

Black : Each hull zone adjacent to the defending hull zone suffers 1 damage.

APT

Black : Deal 1 faceup damage card to the defender.

Damage from ACM (which COULD result in face-down cards) is NOT part of the determine total damage part of an attack, but a separate CRITICAL EFFECT. Same goes for APT (1 face-up). Resolving either has no bearing on XX-9; the first 2 cards dealt by the attack will be face-up.

I disagree with your assessment on ACMs and the Standard critical effect and XX-9's.

The reason is because you are saying that a critical effect is not part of the attack.

Which is wrong becuase Critical Effects happen right after Defense Tokens are spent but before damage is resolved.

No where in the Standard Critical Effect or XX-9 does it state that it has to be damage dealt from the damage on the Dice.

Oh, and Timing is important here, so if you ACM and then use XX-9, it would not recognize any damage dealt from ACMs because that would have already resolved. Thus the card would treat all following damage to the hull as the first damage.

The rules for attacking define what damage dealt by the attack is. I once again point out the following, with the highlighted part providing emphasis From RRG, page 2: Attack, step 5

Resolve Damage:

The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all (hit) icons.

◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all (crit) and (hit) icons .

◊ Each ship has the following standard critical effect: “(crit): If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

So per the rules, as written damage dealt by the attack is only the results of the dice. Damage as from critical effects is not damage from the attack, ergo the order you resolve ACM and XX-9s is irrelevant.

So what is he damage dealt by ACMs and APTs then?

Damage dealt by a critical effect. I established this earlier in the thread. It's damage, but it's a result of the critical effect, not the attack. Damage can be caused by things other than attacks, in this case a critical effect.

So what is he damage dealt by ACMs and APTs then?

Damage cards dealt directly to the ship, just like running over an Asteroid. It is the result of an attack, but it is not the damage from an attack.

Damage dealt by a critical effect. I established this earlier in the thread. It's damage, but it's a result of the critical effect, not the attack. Damage can be caused by things other than attacks, in this case a critical effect.

So what is he damage dealt by ACMs and APTs then?

Damage cards dealt directly to the ship, just like running over an Asteroid. It is the result of an attack, but it is not the damage from an attack.

Running over an aestroid or debris is an Overlap and follows the rules for Overlaps

Minefields are a part of an objective and not a part of the attack so no contain, redirect, etc.

A critical effect chosen after defense tokens are spent is the result of an attack. Thus all damage is being dealt in the Attack Phase and so a part of that attack.

Not sure where you guys have found ANY rules that states otherwise.

Ok. Here we go.

RRG 4:

Damage

Ships and squadrons can suffer damage from attacks, obstacles, and other game effects .

Ok here we establish damage can come from things other than attacks.

Critical Effects

A critical effect, denoted by the “E:” header, can resolve if there is at least one E icon in the attack pool. • The attacker can resolve only one critical effect per attack. • The attacker does not spend a die icon to resolve a critical effect unless the effect says otherwise. • Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

So here is the definition of the critical effect. We've established it can cause damage as part of it's effect and that it resolve at the beginning of the "Resolve Damage" step of the attack.

RRG 2:

Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects . Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time. ◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all (hit) icons. ◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all (hit) and (crit) icons .

Ok so here it clearly states that if damage is the sum of all the crit and hit icons.

From this we can understand that ACM's resolve fully and that any damage that may or may not have been dealt does not have any bearing on the damage from the attack which is defined as the total of the results shown on the dice.

This is what I'm using to backup my statements. So under the definition of damage, we can see damage can be dealt by overlapping, obstacles, attacks and other game effects. The definition is clear. The attack rules defind what damage dealt by the attack is. Pretty clear.

You realize Silver that you are quoting the exact portion that proves you likely wrong right? It is even bold for you. Let's make it a tad bit easier shall we.

Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

So, a Critical Effect is a part of the attack. That means that it is not an "other game effect" which are things like Minefields or Cluster Bombs, nor is it damage from an Obstacle such as the Debris field or Aestroid.

This means it is damage from an attack! Which makes sense due to it being a part of the attack phase.

So, your assertion is false. A Critical Effect from the Resolve Damage Step (hey look at that, it is also a part of the Resolve Damage Step. . . Wonder why) is indeed Damage from an attack.

No, I'm not concerned, The whole rule further defines what specifically is considered damage dealt by the attack. I'm only wrong if you don't read the whole rule.

Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects . Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time. ◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all (hit) icons. ◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all (hit) and (crit) icons .

I think a key point someone made earlier is the difference between critical effects and critical damage. There is no critical damage in Armada. If you have a critical dice face you may carry out a critical effect during the critical phase. This may tell you to do damage to a ship or simply deal a damage card, but it is still a critical effect and separate from the damage done by that attack. XX-9's id the only one with the unfortunate wording that creates a conflict, but taking the cards as literally as possible limits it when used with other criticals.

We're in new territory with regards to how many criticals must be rolled to activate two effects. I don't have any solid reference, but my gut and game balance would seem to call for one crit each. If that is the the ruling it will be another way that TRC's are freaking awesome. With the one guaranteed critical, you can focus on getting any color specific crits you might need,

You realize Silver that you are quoting the exact portion that proves you likely wrong right? It is even bold for you. Let's make it a tad bit easier shall we.

Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

So, a Critical Effect is a part of the attack. That means that it is not an "other game effect" which are things like Minefields or Cluster Bombs, nor is it damage from an Obstacle such as the Debris field or Aestroid.

This means it is damage from an attack! Which makes sense due to it being a part of the attack phase.

So, your assertion is false. A Critical Effect from the Resolve Damage Step (hey look at that, it is also a part of the Resolve Damage Step. . . Wonder why) is indeed Damage from an attack.

Exactly. Critical Effects Are Resolved.

And if you read through the rest of the Resolve Damage step, you'll see that Critical Effects ARE NOT DAMAGE . "Damage" is defined very specifically as the total number of Hit and Crit symbols.

-edit- I think it's time to acknowledge something very important: we have had 6 pages of argument back and forth about what constitutes damage and which critical effects might trigger extra face-up damage under which circumstances. If that's not a the sign of a rule that needs clarification by the game designers, I don't know what is.

Critical Effects are not seperate. They are a part of the attack.

There are 3 types of damage as has been quoted. Attacks, Obstacles, and Other Game Effects.

Critical Effects Fall under Attacks die to being in the Attack step. If you all refuse to see that, then fine. That is your prerogative but what you guys are quoting saying is just taking the rules how you want to see them.

You realize Silver that you are quoting the exact portion that proves you likely wrong right? It is even bold for you. Let's make it a tad bit easier shall we.

Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

So, a Critical Effect is a part of the attack. That means that it is not an "other game effect" which are things like Minefields or Cluster Bombs, nor is it damage from an Obstacle such as the Debris field or Aestroid.

This means it is damage from an attack! Which makes sense due to it being a part of the attack phase.

So, your assertion is false. A Critical Effect from the Resolve Damage Step (hey look at that, it is also a part of the Resolve Damage Step. . . Wonder why) is indeed Damage from an attack.

Exactly. Critical Effects Are Resolved.

And if you read through the rest of the Resolve Damage step, you'll see that Critical Effects ARE NOT DAMAGE . "Damage" is defined very specifically as the total number of Hit and Crit symbols.

Please tell me what it says. Does it say, of remove 1 shields from adjacent hull zones? No. . . That is not it. It says "Damage" hmmmm what could that ever mean.

Please don't spout nonsense.

I'm not arguing that its not damage or that it isn't caused by an effect for which the trigger comes up during the attack or that resolution occurs during the attack. That's all true. What is not true is that is damage dealt by the attack. The rules specifically call out how to figure out what damage is dealt by the attack, and that's the results show on the dice after defense tokens have taken effect. Do what the rules say, not what they don't say or what you are reading into them.

So I'm going to ask point blank now: How can you make the argument ACM's are damage dealt by the attack, when the rules state otherwise and that the sum of the results on the die are how you calculate damage from the attack?

The damage is performed as a part of the Critical Effect, NOT as a part of the damage total. As we have now reiterated about 5 times on this page.

i and many other people are reading the clearly written rules on what constitutes damage. "Damage" consists entirely of Hit and Crit symbols. That's what Damage is defined by.

Your ACMs, APTs, and similar effects are the same as running over an asteroid, triggering a Minefield token, or overlapping an obstacle or ship. the trigger for that effect is the Critical Effect.

And for what it's worth, I think your idea has merit from a logical standpoint. It's during the attack. One could reasonably expect that it's damage from the attack, right?

Except that now we're dissecting individual words from about 5 different rules and a half dozen cards. Many of these words seem to be contradictory to that expectation. The only example of how this card works seems to be logically impossible.

The only foolishness I can see here is continuing a pointless argument that won't be clarified until the card is on shelves and the developers issue an FAQ or Errata for one or more of the effects and rules listed. Per the FFG FAQ policy, they do not issue FAQs for unreleased cards.

Why are we still on this?

There is going to be an FAQ/errata. Until then this conversation has run its course.

WAIT and See

I'm not arguing that its not damage or that it isn't caused by an effect for which the trigger comes up during the attack or that resolution occurs during the attack. That's all true. What is not true is that is damage dealt by the attack. The rules specifically call out how to figure out what damage is dealt by the attack, and that's the results show on the dice after defense tokens have taken effect. Do what the rules say, not what they don't say or what you are reading into them.

So I'm going to ask point blank now: How can you make the argument ACM's are damage dealt by the attack, when the rules state otherwise and that the sum of the results on the die are how you calculate damage from the attack?

Sure it is a critical effect but it is done during the resolve damage step.

See the trend here. Just in case, "Resolve Damage Step".

Question: Why then, can ACM damage not be redirected or braced, for example, if it was just normal damage?

It's pretty clear cut IMO.

But who knows, maybe FFG would like for the MC30 to be able to do a little ACM/XX-9 trick?

The damage is performed as a part of the Critical Effect, NOT as a part of the damage total. As we have now reiterated about 5 times on this page.

i and many other people are reading the clearly written rules on what constitutes damage. "Damage" consists entirely of Hit and Crit symbols. That's what Damage is defined by.

Your ACMs, APTs, and similar effects are the same as running over an asteroid, triggering a Minefield token, or overlapping an obstacle or ship. the trigger for that effect is the Critical Effect.

And for what it's worth, I think your idea has merit from a logical standpoint. It's during the attack. One could reasonably expect that it's damage from the attack, right?

Except that now we're dissecting individual words from about 5 different rules and a half dozen cards. Many of these words seem to be contradictory to that expectation. The only example of how this card works seems to be logically impossible.

The only foolishness I can see here is continuing a pointless argument that won't be clarified until the card is on shelves and the developers issue an FAQ or Errata for one or more of the effects and rules listed. Per the FFG FAQ policy, they do not issue FAQs for unreleased cards.

First off, Damage does not consist entirely of JUST the hits and crits. ACM's proves this. Your assertion is a fallacy that you are jumping behind.

Damage as stated earlier is a combination of Attacks, Obstacles, and Other Game Mechanics.

Critical Effects ARE a part of the attack as shown in the Critical Effects section of the RRG.

• The attacker can resolve only one critical effect per attack.

• Critical effects resolve at the beginning of the “Resolve Damage” step of an attack.

• The standard critical effect is “E: If the defender is dealt at least one damage card by this attack, deal the first damage card faceup.”

So your ONLY assertion is that damage is only the sum of the Hits and Crits. However, since Critical Effects are a part of an attack and some (ACM's) deal DAMAGE, they are obviously part of the attack and thus can trigger the crit effect it chosen AFTER the basic crit effect was chosen AND there are no shields to stop the damage.

You are ignoring a simple part because of one section. You choose to say that all Hits and Crits are the only Damage being dealt as part of an attack and yet under Damage

Damage

Ships and squadrons can suffer damage from attacks , obstacles, and other game effects

As I have already shown, critical effects are a part of the attack, can deal damage a part of that attack and thus are not obstacles or other game effects.

Question: Why then, can ACM damage not be redirected or braced, for example, if it was just normal damage?

It's pretty clear cut IMO.

But who knows, maybe FFG would like for the MC30 to be able to do a little ACM/XX-9 trick?

It honestly is not game breaking in any way. There are too many requirements for it to occur. It is also expensive and not very useful.

No where does it state that you have to be able to interact with the damage for it not to be part of an attack.

Question: Why then, can ACM damage not be redirected or braced, for example, if it was just normal damage?

Why is that even a question GK, you know the answer as well as I do. It is damage being resolved as part of an attack prior to the Defense Tokens taking affect.

If they came out with a card that stated "Damage is dealt at the Start of the Resolve Damage Step" Brace and Redirect would not work. Would be a nice 10 point card. . .

I dunno. I suppose it could be possible for it to work that way, but it just feels so contrived. I guess I won't know for sure for a while.

You are still cherry-picking.

Lets break it down

Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects . Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time. ◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all (hit) icons. ◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all (hit) and (crit) icons .

Critical effects are damage, yes they resolve in the Resolve Damage step. Criticial effects can be damage. That's crystal clear. The problem is that the card you are triggering is causing the damage, not the attack itself The attack is providing the trigger. It's a separate effect for which the rules define a resolution window during the resolve damage step. Then you calculate the damage based of the die results. I'm done with this thread at this point as you can't contradict what I'm saying and have it follow ALL the rules.

#abandonthread