Lyraeus your OCD-like attention to detail is normally great. It's from a lot of your posts that I've learned to step back from what I think upgrade cards say and look at what the cards literally say. I don't know what part of this is bothering you, maybe just the fact that the fire control teams circumvents the original one critical effect per attack rule. FFG has made it clear for a long time that none of the rules are immune to being modified by upgrade cards. This is kind of a little slice of hell for rules lawyers, but it's the way Armada is being written. I use the current tense because I'd be willing to bet that they're planning rules bridging upgrades for future waves.

At least for me, I had to step back and look at how Fire Control Teams rewrites the phase steps for ships that have it. I look at what the card says without reading into it and it seems that all this cars does is exhaust to allow a second critical effect. I know if seen the attack order described by you before, defense tokens declared in defense token phase even though only scatter and evade take place then. All crit effects are resolved in crit phase, even though some are applied with damage. Total hits and Crit symbols added up for total damage from that attack. Just because a critical effect isn't applied until the damage phase, doesn't mean you lump it in with the "normal" damage from the attack

Well, there's no question that APT/ACM damage isn't part of the total damage, but why wouldn't damage dealt by a crit triggered by an attack and resolved during this same attack be damage "dealt to the defender by this attack"?

The std crit/xx9 wording is the only issue here for every interaction created by fire control teams. No need for convoluted timing arguments, it's just a matter of vague language which can be interpreted either way. That is until the intent is laid out in the faq.

#abandonthread #waitforthefaq.

Mind you the downside could be:

#nothingtotalkabout

Lyraeus your OCD-like attention to detail is normally great. It's from a lot of your posts that I've learned to step back from what I think upgrade cards say and look at what the cards literally say. I don't know what part of this is bothering you, maybe just the fact that the fire control teams circumvents the original one critical effect per attack rule. FFG has made it clear for a long time that none of the rules are immune to being modified by upgrade cards. This is kind of a little slice of hell for rules lawyers, but it's the way Armada is being written. I use the current tense because I'd be willing to bet that they're planning rules bridging upgrades for future waves.

At least for me, I had to step back and look at how Fire Control Teams rewrites the phase steps for ships that have it. I look at what the card says without reading into it and it seems that all this cars does is exhaust to allow a second critical effect. I know if seen the attack order described by you before, defense tokens declared in defense token phase even though only scatter and evade take place then. All crit effects are resolved in crit phase, even though some are applied with damage. Total hits and Crit symbols added up for total damage from that attack. Just because a critical effect isn't applied until the damage phase, doesn't mean you lump it in with the "normal" damage from the attack

I am not sold on my definition of what damage is but I am not sold on what you all consider damage either.

I have always been of the mind that what upgrade cards do is just modify the base rules which is a great way to create a game I think.

i'm a broken record, and a Rebel main player, i say again , after play testing tabletop with proxies, XX-9 deals the first and second damage cards face up, the standard crit also states the 1st card is face up. there is no combo to get 3 face up cards with xx9 and standard crit and also use it with Dodonna.. i did play it this way in our testing and it was BRUTAL. the key is there is ONLY ONE 1st card in a damage dealt, if i deal 4 damage cards to a hull, then for XX9 there is only 1 first card face up that same card is the same 1st card face up for standard crit as well .

these words taste like vinegar coming out of my mouth as i main rebel but also play empire

also let me throw in , i disagree about the madine/nav team combo, because nav team states "your tokens can either change your speed or increase 1 yaw value by 1" meaning WHEN i spend the token. Whilts Madine states "IF you spent a command token" meaning after the fact.

sorry too much Rebel bashing lately on the wave 4 stuf LMAO

Whilts Madine states "IF you spent a command token" meaning after the fact.

Which ignores the actual timing of the card:

"During"

Once again restating your arguments over and over doesn't do anything.

Wait for the FAQ...

Once again restating your arguments over and over doesn't do anything.

Wait for the FAQ...

Shhh...just let it happen

Lyraeus your OCD-like attention to detail is normally great. It's from a lot of your posts that I've learned to step back from what I think upgrade cards say and look at what the cards literally say. I don't know what part of this is bothering you, maybe just the fact that the fire control teams circumvents the original one critical effect per attack rule. FFG has made it clear for a long time that none of the rules are immune to being modified by upgrade cards. This is kind of a little slice of hell for rules lawyers, but it's the way Armada is being written. I use the current tense because I'd be willing to bet that they're planning rules bridging upgrades for future waves.

At least for me, I had to step back and look at how Fire Control Teams rewrites the phase steps for ships that have it. I look at what the card says without reading into it and it seems that all this cars does is exhaust to allow a second critical effect. I know if seen the attack order described by you before, defense tokens declared in defense token phase even though only scatter and evade take place then. All crit effects are resolved in crit phase, even though some are applied with damage. Total hits and Crit symbols added up for total damage from that attack. Just because a critical effect isn't applied until the damage phase, doesn't mean you lump it in with the "normal" damage from the attack

So here is the counter, if no rule is not subject to being able to be modified, how do we know that this won't modify what you all consider to be what damage is?

I am not sold on my definition of what damage is but I am not sold on what you all consider damage either.

I have always been of the mind that what upgrade cards do is just modify the base rules which is a great way to create a game I think.

This is our exact point. There are now 7 pages that have people rather angrily disagreeing on the rules for a card that isn't even out yet and may not be out until after Worlds because it interacts in a way that doesn't make sense f6or our interpretations of the rules.

Stop ranting, wait for the FAQ, and in the meantime Doobleg flips a coin or whatever he wants to do for his tournament.

This doesn't really seem much of an argument even though it has gone on seven pages. It seems perfectly clear to me if you use RAW as Silver Crane points out with the only question being XX-9 and default and since there can only be one "first" that isn't even much of a question.

And that case is only much of a question if you're dealing three damage cards.

Fire control teams specifically states during resolve damage. So RAW in effect becomes:

"Resolve damge: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects . You may exhaust your Fire Control Team to resolve an additional critical effect. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time. ◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all (hit) icons. ◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all (hit) and (crit) icons . "

Fire control teams and any critical effects happen, it would seem to me, before determining total damage. How would any damage caused by resolving a critical effect count towards total damage? XX-9 and default are tied to the total damage amount as they don't take effect until damage cards are being put on a ship but technically XX-9 and default are declared before we "know" whether damage cards are being put on a ship.

But since we've done the mental calculation already we kind of "skip to the end" with this as we have to determine which one of our available critical effects we will declare before we "know" (again technically speaking) the total damage. You also have to think about what decisions your opponent might make when declaring since they may have ways to circumvent what you declare (contain tokens being the most obvious example.)

Fire control teams throws that mental calculation off since we can now have two critical effects.

This doesn't really seem much of an argument even though it has gone on seven pages. It seems perfectly clear to me if you use RAW as Silver Crane points out with the only question being XX-9 and default and since there can only be one "first" that isn't even much of a question.

And that case is only much of a question if you're dealing three damage cards.

Fire control teams specifically states during resolve damage. So RAW in effect becomes:

"Resolve damge: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects . You may exhaust your Fire Control Team to resolve an additional critical effect. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time. ◊ If the attacker or defender is a squadron, the damage is the sum of all (hit) icons. ◊ If the attacker and defender are ships, the damage is the sum of all (hit) and (crit) icons . "

Fire control teams and any critical effects happen, it would seem to me, before determining total damage. How would any damage caused by resolving a critical effect count towards total damage? XX-9 and default are tied to the total damage amount as they don't take effect until damage cards are being put on a ship but technically XX-9 and default are declared before we "know" whether damage cards are being put on a ship.

But since we've done the mental calculation already we kind of "skip to the end" with this as we have to determine which one of our available critical effects we will declare before we "know" (again technically speaking) the total damage. You also have to think about what decisions your opponent might make when declaring since they may have ways to circumvent what you declare (contain tokens being the most obvious example.)

Fire control teams throws that mental calculation off since we can now have two critical effects.

Except that there is still a valid argument to be made for the opposing view. I just stopped making it several pages ago because it's pointless to keep repeating the same arguments for 7 pages.

Let's just wait for the FAQ, shall we?

Does anyone else ever feel like they throw this stuff out there purposefully ambiguous? Like they just want to troll us a bit or maybe find out if we've actually read the rulebook? Like they have office pools or something on how long the thread goes before someone actually gets it right.

No.

Although I do believe that if the community comes up with a consensus, then that consensus can form the basis of an FAQ later, essentially doing their job for them...

We are preferential to FFG being contacted after all:


Customer Services:

At some point you may find yourself in the midst of enjoying a game among friends when an unusual rules question arises. If you have already reviewed the rulebook and are still unsure, here are a few potential sources of assistance:

• Visit the Support page for your game. You may learn that we have already posted an answer to your question.

• You can pose your question to the community-at-large by posting on the FFG Community Forums .

If you have not found the answer you seek, please complete the form on our Rules Questions page to inform us about your concerns as thoroughly as possible. Please understand that we are unable to answer rules questions by phone. Additionally, the soonest we can answer rules questions about recently released games is a month after the product becomes available.