Ultramarines -- Why No Love?

By venkelos, in Deathwatch

Yes, I think an eldar would quickly spot the psychic taint of the genestealer infection. Likewise I'd bet a space marines super immune system would reject infection. As to tau, they are almost certainly infectable, but their very socialist lifestyle would make it hard for the infected to deviate and breed secretly, and their medical science would likely detect the infection quickly or at least aberrant behavior. Also, given the tau aren't too impressed by psychic powers could that whole genestealer "Hypnotic forget this happened" thing work on them? Plus could ethereal control override their enslavement to the genestealers?

I think we need to assume orks are immune to genestealer infection, else at the rate orks breed the hybrids would have taken them over by now.

Nope! back in the old days (the 90s) there were ork-stealer hybrid models by GW.

c2074orkfreebooterz.jpg

3d row down , 3d from the left: Genestealer hybrid.

Edited by Robin Graves

Actually the Kroot would make good allies, they are mercs who are soley in it for the money and the chance to meet intersting people and eat them.

Isn't someone who "is only in it for the money" (or the flesh) a rather bad ally in that their loyalty may switch at any time? ;)

Not that I believe this to hold true for the Kroot; they seem to follow some sort of honourable warrior code or whatever, but "mercenary" is generally considered to be the opposite of "trustworthy".

#justkuritathings

The kroot don't just eat any flesh. I think they've learned that eating chaos mutants is a no no. Eating tyranids is a no no. Now eating marines would be a HELL YEAH!!! for them. They might even make a rule that the first pick of marine meat goes to the shapers, who would likely have a pair of them eat one progenoid apiece. The rest of the marines gets eaten by as many kroot as possibe while the shapers select the best of the progernoid gene seed traits to pass on, and likely "pass it on" to as many kroot offspring as possible!. (Nudge nudge wink wink!)

Of course the kroot like themselves some orky DNA, hell it was the first alien DNA they ever et and look at how much good it did them!

So the kroot may not switch sides so easily, I don't see them working for chaos or for orks. I can see them working for the eldar if the eldar weren't too stinking proud to hire them, maybe corsairs. Now the kroot may take contracts to fight eldar because all that powerful psychic DNA plus a nearly limitless lifespan, yes please I'll have some of that! :P Mmmm! Mmmm! Good!

They might fight against chaos or nids for self preservation as an ally. As mercs they may take payment in technology, hardware, etc.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

Yes, I think an eldar would quickly spot the psychic taint of the genestealer infection. Likewise I'd bet a space marines super immune system would reject infection. As to tau, they are almost certainly infectable, but their very socialist lifestyle would make it hard for the infected to deviate and breed secretly, and their medical science would likely detect the infection quickly or at least aberrant behavior. Also, given the tau aren't too impressed by psychic powers could that whole genestealer "Hypnotic forget this happened" thing work on them? Plus could ethereal control override their enslavement to the genestealers?

I think we need to assume orks are immune to genestealer infection, else at the rate orks breed the hybrids would have taken them over by now.

Nope! back in the old days (the 90s) there were ork-stealer hybrid models by GW.

c2074orkfreebooterz.jpg

3d row down , 3d from the left: Genestealer hybrid.

In the first edition of WH40K the ulktramarines had a librarian who was a half human/ half eldar bastard. (I think they used that term it's been a very long time) who's human mother was raped by an eldar pirate and the ultramrines had adopted him at birth to raise as a psyker. Yeah, I don't think they would go over too well in more recent 40k canon either.

Yeah but I don't think he had a model. ;)

There's also this:

"[...] Their carapace, along with the density of their internal skeleton, typically thickens with body mass; a Genestealer whose host was Orkoid will typically be tougher than one born of Eldar gene-stock."

Note, that's a quote from White Dwarf 266, printed 2002, which means it's 3rd Edition material.

As to whether or not this would work on Space Marines is a good question. They certainly aren't 100% immune to biohazards:

"Some races have unique methods of attack or reproduction that may threaten the spiritual and physical integrity of a chapter, such as psychic or genetic domination of a battle brother exposed to the aliens. Such instances can prove as dangerous as daemonic possession, and cause the tainted chapter to pursue goals utterly inimical to its duties to the Imperium.

Such an incident was uncovered by the Ordo Xenos, when the Subjugators chapter fought a protracted campaign against the alien cell-kin of the Technetium Belt. The unique reproductive cycle of the species made their complete eradication very difficult to achieve. The cell-kin reproduced by viral dissemination, their DNA infecting the body of another creature where it would literally reshape the host in its own image. The Space Marines' enhanced genetic make-up proved largely resilient to this threat, but 20 of the brethren of the 3rd Company were lost in the early stages of the campaign as they were slowly mutated into new, hideous forms. The chapter's Apothecaries identified the threat, but too late to save those Battle Brothers affected by the cell-kins' infection. The infected Brethren that survived the conflict escaped and are assumed to be at large in the galaxy to this day."

-- Index Astartes : Renegade Space Marines

However, even if you manage to impregnate a Marine in spite of their more effective immune system, at best you'd end up with a walking timebomb that's somewhat more susceptible to psychic domination by the 'stealer Patriarch. They don't reproduce like normal Humans or even Orks (in a fashion) do, so to get a 'Stealer-Astartes Hybrid , you'd have to wait until they take his progenoid glands for "recycling". And even if the infected Marine somehow avoided detection so far, the Apothecary would certainly spot the changes in the genetic material once they run some sort of routine test before implanting the stuff into a fresh aspirant, right?

I mean, maybe they'd have a shot at this if they somehow also manage to infect the Apothecary. Negligible chance of success, though ... too many "if's" involved.

Edited by Lynata

I recall a statement that Deathwatch marines are effectively protected from genestealer infection between their natural resistance and screening.

you know you think someone in the imperium would consider astartes immunity to genestesler infection and try to work out a vaccine against genestealer infection for use on hi risk worlds.

probably to arcane, hard to do, costly to be cost effective. If anything of the bio enhancements the astartes had were easy to mass produce the imperium would be doing it.

Or not. It's the bassackwards imperium/mechanicum after all.

hey guys! Eversor hybrids!

okay that's just silly I know. Plus I'm pretty sure getting it on with a 'stealer would mess up the eversor's biological juggling act and he would asplode.

So how about adepta sororitas? Any remote convents turned into the brides of the four-armed-Emperor?

I don't recall any fluff in wich this happened, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

How about it Lynata? You're the resident AS expert around here.

While I'm on a (hive mind) induced roll here:

How about the 'stealers taking over a roguetrader vessel (start with one of the away team serfs, and breed in the holds then work your way up to the captain's bridge etc.) and then mindslave the RT and crew into "the family". Now you have a Patriarch in control of a space ship that can go from port to port, drop of a few hybrids there, a few purestrains there. Maybe rain massdestructive orbital bombardments on a world days before the hive fleet attacks. And oh god: boarding torpedoes full of puretsrain 'stealers!

My point is, this seems to be a lot better than a space hulk. And before you say the stealers are to dumb, The magus and the hybrids should still be smart enough. The tricky part might be the enginseers tough...

Edited by Robin Graves

How about it Lynata? You're the resident AS expert around here.

Pheww. Very unlikely, but theoretically (read: biologically) possible. They are only Human, after all, and when I could see Marines vulnerable to this sort of thing then they have to be even more. Faith and purity do not protect against this sort of thing.

Let's see ...

The "unlikely" part is due to their isolated and communal lifestyle -- it is very difficult to gain entrance to one of their convents for anyone other than a Sororitas, so a 'stealers best chance would be to ambush a patrol and use an infected survivor to gain access to the compound. Even then, however, restrictive convent life with very little privacy would prove a hindrance, plus the infected cannot herself infect others. Lack of males means there's no way to create hybrids.

Likewise, if the 'stealers would manage to bring an infected male into the compound (such as a high-ranking church official implanted with an egg), he would have little in the way of passing on the infection, as the Sisters would simply be unwilling to mate.

In the end, a convent is probably just not an attractive target. A Genestealer Cult wants to spread, and for this they need both sexes and a place to hide. They could just use an infected Sororitas how they would use any other Human, meaning to have her go MIA and join the Patriarch's coven, but in the end this would only make sense as collateral damage rather than specifically targeting her.

The only thing they could do with a Sororitas from a strategic point of view would be to use her to sabotage the planetary defences in preparation for a 'nid invasion, but it's a lot easier and more effective to take over the PDF instead. More troops, more weapons, and less oversight. That's not to say I could not imagine an infected Sororitas to work as an assassin or saboteur (could make a nice villain, sort of like the Patriarch's right hand gal), but rather that it'd be a coincidence with an extremely low chance of occurrence, partially also because there's fewer Battle Sisters than Space Marines in the galaxy to begin with.

I don't recall any fluff in wich this happened, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Actually, there was a Black Library novel (of course) where something like this happened: Redemption Corps. I don't think it actually explains how the Sisters got infected, and it ends with the protagonist Storm Trooper single-handedly wiping out an entire convent, so yeah.

Just in case you were still wondering why I don't have a very high opinion of the novels in general. :P

And before you say the stealers are to dumb, The magus and the hybrids should still be smart enough.

You only get a magus and hybrids after the Cult was already started, though, and at this point they focus on dominating the world they are on. The single Genestealer is actually not very intelligent; they only grow so after having impregnated a couple victims, apparently as they psychically draw strength from the adoration of their thralls. The larger the Cult, the larger its gestalt consciousness, and the stronger its Patriarch.

"A vigorous investigation by the Inquisition, commissioned by Inquisitor Kryptmann, subsequently discovered that the Genestealer is a vanguard organism; the precursor to a full-scale Tyranid attack. This explained their presence aboard the space hulks, immense agglomerations of debris and wrecked craft that float ponderously through the warp, periodically reappearing in real space.

Most space hulks are empty, lifeless shells. However, a significant number have been found to contain rare and archaic machinery, or relics from the Dark Age of Technology. Such a prize is without price, and no amount of risk is unjustified in its retrieval. As a result, Explorators, treasure hunters and pioneers have been known to board a space hulk in the hope of uncovering such devices. Unfortunately they often uncover nests of Genestealers, which proceed to impregnate them before allowing them to return to civilised worlds. In this manner the Genestealer spreads the Tyranid infection across the galaxy."

-- White Dwarf 266 : The Ultimate Predator

It's a bit like Alien , really. An obvious inspiration. ;)

Edited by Lynata

I think it's been said that genestealers cannot use technology, period. Hybrids can use tech like guns and vehicles, but not really innovate.

I just can't see a genestealer tribe even with hybrids running a ship. Now, with a huge ship maybe a genestealer tribe could live in a secured area of the ship while the rest of the crew didn't know about them. If the captain was under cult control something like your plan might work as long as it was a huge ship the cult could live in seclusion aboard.

A variant of this could be a planet with an established cult on it and a ship under a cultist's command, it could 'ship' numbers if the cult to other world's over time without the crew's knowledge.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

probably to arcane, hard to do, costly to be cost effective. If anything of the bio enhancements the astartes had were easy to mass produce the imperium would be doing it.

Or not. It's the bassackwards imperium/mechanicum after all.

According to the achilus assault,it was said the tau have found a way to reverse genestealer infection in humans. They discovered a genestealer infestation in a human world that had joined them and worked out a way to 're code' human DNA to eliminate the genestealer taint. They didn't tell the imperium because they felt it gave them some advantage not to. Too bad, something like that might convince the imps they need the tau.

They are probably gonna go :"Hey G'uella! We got a cure for genestealer infection! Join the greater good and you will get it free! See how much better the Tau empire is than your own imperium? Join today and we'll throw in a free bonding knife!

That would cause many fringe worlds to flock to the Tau.

Bitter old inquisitor: "We also have a cure for genestealer infestation. It's called exterminatus! Works great aginst Tau, to."

Edited by Robin Graves

While I'm on a (hive mind) induced roll here:

How about the 'stealers taking over a roguetrader vessel (start with one of the away team serfs, and breed in the holds then work your way up to the captain's bridge etc.) and then mindslave the RT and crew into "the family". Now you have a Patriarch in control of a space ship that can go from port to port, drop of a few hybrids there, a few purestrains there. Maybe rain massdestructive orbital bombardments on a world days before the hive fleet attacks. And oh god: boarding torpedoes full of puretsrain 'stealers!

My point is, this seems to be a lot better than a space hulk. And before you say the stealers are to dumb, The magus and the hybrids should still be smart enough. The tricky part might be the enginseers tough...

This is an idea I've batted around, before, and while it does have several problems, I do still like it. One little flaw seems to be the degree with which the infected "think". If what was said above is true, and somehow they forget even more of how technology works; if they stop remembering how to be the humans they used to be, upon receiving their ulterior motive, keeping their ship going would be hard, and they would never, on their own, reach the critical tipping point where they could draw in the Hive Fleets, but if they COULD think more like a malicious, infectious organism, and less like a slavish, suicidal one (what happens to everyone else on that world will happen to them; Tyranids frequently eat their own, to reclaim, and improve, the biomass), then a mobile, colony-seeding ship could be very cool, even if the ship, and its crew, were, for the most part, unaware (if the infected DID remain in hiding, and saw the advantages of NOT infecting more than a certain amount of the crew. Otherwise, they COULD crash the ship, and spread out.

It certainly has potential for a rather cool plot that could work in any of the RPGs!

A Genestealer infestation is spreading through the sector, and already seven worlds had to be put to the torch. As the Ordo Xenos scrambles to connect the dots, the Rogue Trader Solar Queen seems to be the only ship whose presence has been logged at all ports. As the Navy demands the ship to be shot down, an Inquisitor resolves to send a team aboard the suspect ship with the intention of acquiring its logs in the hopes of locating the origin of the infestation, or uncover additional stopovers where the Cults have not yet gone into open rebellion.

Dark Heresy

The team has booked passage on the Solar Queen to journey under cover, unaware of the hideous monstrosities lurking amid the shadows beneath their cabins. Will the Acolytes acknowledge the danger in time, and how will they act if they do? Things are further complicated by the arrival of a trigger-happy Ordo Xenos kill-team unaware of the Acolytes' true identity.

Deathwatch

Dispatched to investigate the Solar Queen , it is up to the Space Marines of the Deathwatch to secure control of the vessel, not only having to deal with hordes of Genestealers hidden twixt its bulkheads, but also a crew and officers whose true allegiance may be questionable, but whose co-operation may be required to uncover the ship's history.

As contact with an accompanying regiment of Imperial Guard breaks off, the Battle-Brothers quickly realise that their task has gotten a lot more complicated, and that they need the Emperor's guidance to resist the coming storm.

Rogue Trader

The intrepid merchant-conquerors are scheduled to meet up with another Rogue Trader, the heavy cruiser Solar Queen , to engage in complex negotiations over trade rights and shared use of planetary assets via a joint holding company. Yet things are not as they seem as the adventurers are led into the opulent dining hall, and they may discover that something worse than a ruthless rival is out to steal their starship.

Only War

The regiment has been requisitioned by an Ordo Xenos-Inquisitor in order to assist with the boarding of a suspicious civilian cruiser. Spirits are high as the troops are told that the illustrious Space Marines will join them on this mission -- but the excitement fades as the plan is laid out and the soldiers discover that the Marines are tasked with taking the bridge, whereas the regiment is ordered to perform a sweep of the lower decks, rounding up any hidden mutants and xenos for Inquisitorial processing.

With the entire mission being conducted on a strict need-to-know basis, the troops are left to figure out for themselves just what they are forced to face, but they quickly realise that they are being used as an expendable decoy. As the command structure begins to break down, the question is no longer about whether they can accomplish their mission, but rather if they can survive...

Black Crusade

Tracking Imperial movements on nearby worlds, the heretics realise that a crisis looms on the horizon as world after world is subjected to large scale invasion, heavy-ordnance bombardment, Exterminatus, or any mix of the two, all committed by forces sworn to protect these planets.

Being less concerned about the fate of those worlds, but fearing Imperial mingling to eventually reach their own domain and disrupt an important scheme years in the making, the champions of Chaos resolve to investigate the issue in an attempt to protect their investments. A false lead has the heretics assume the Solar Queen is transporting a powerful artifact of the ruinous powers, but when they board the vessel, they find out that something far more insidious is waiting for them.

They are probably gonna go :"Hey G'uella! We got a cure for genestealer infection! Join the greater good and you will get it free! See how much better the Tau empire is than your own imperium? Join today and we'll throw in a free bonding knife!

That would cause many fringe worlds to flock to the Tau.

Bitter old inquisitor: "We also have a cure for genestealer infestation. It's called exterminatus! Works great aginst Tau, to."

And a tau says "Just try getting your clanking rattletrap ships close enough to one of our worlds to try deploying your 'cure', gue'la savage. Our air caste would enjoy the diversion.

BTW, I wonder how your worlds touched with genestealer taint will react when we offer them a choice between our cure and yours?

BTW, so far the imperium has only seen advance elements of the tau fleet. Can you imagine what type of orbital defenses tha tau would likley have around i9mportant worlds? Say ships with no FTL drive ability that use the surplus space for weapons, shields, ordnance storage, etc? Sure they're essentially fixed defenses that may have to be ferried into a system by a FTL carrier but who cares when the system is attacked and they're needed then and there?

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

the Rogue Trader Solar Queen

Just don't mess with Grand Master Norton - and it all will be ok ;)

For people who have an opinion, what do you think? Do you like the Ultramarines? Think they suck? Why?

Thanks much for getting this far, and for any opinions you choose to share. Have a good one!!!

I like Ultras best as matter-of-fact, let's-get-to-business, hardest-working-marines-in-show-business types. All the fancy gold decorations and the glory stuff don't do it for me. My Ultras only have one thing in mind: to get stuff done. Who cares about glory? GIrlyman for me is the no-nonsense Clint Eastwood type. Is this canon? Probably not. Should this be canon? No accounting for taste. Is this the way I prefer them? Hell, yeah.

Alex

How about it Lynata? You're the resident AS expert around here.

Pheww. Very unlikely, but theoretically (read: biologically) possible. They are only Human, after all, and when I could see Marines vulnerable to this sort of thing then they have to be even more. Faith and purity do not protect against this sort of thing.

Let's see ...

The "unlikely" part is due to their isolated and communal lifestyle -- it is very difficult to gain entrance to one of their convents for anyone other than a Sororitas, so a 'stealers best chance would be to ambush a patrol and use an infected survivor to gain access to the compound. Even then, however, restrictive convent life with very little privacy would prove a hindrance, plus the infected cannot herself infect others. Lack of males means there's no way to create hybrids.

Likewise, if the 'stealers would manage to bring an infected male into the compound (such as a high-ranking church official implanted with an egg), he would have little in the way of passing on the infection, as the Sisters would simply be unwilling to mate.

In the end, a convent is probably just not an attractive target. A Genestealer Cult wants to spread, and for this they need both sexes and a place to hide. They could just use an infected Sororitas how they would use any other Human, meaning to have her go MIA and join the Patriarch's coven, but in the end this would only make sense as collateral damage rather than specifically targeting her.

The only thing they could do with a Sororitas from a strategic point of view would be to use her to sabotage the planetary defences in preparation for a 'nid invasion, but it's a lot easier and more effective to take over the PDF instead. More troops, more weapons, and less oversight. That's not to say I could not imagine an infected Sororitas to work as an assassin or saboteur (could make a nice villain, sort of like the Patriarch's right hand gal), but rather that it'd be a coincidence with an extremely low chance of occurrence, partially also because there's fewer Battle Sisters than Space Marines in the galaxy to begin with.

I don't recall any fluff in wich this happened, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Actually, there was a Black Library novel (of course) where something like this happened: Redemption Corps. I don't think it actually explains how the Sisters got infected, and it ends with the protagonist Storm Trooper single-handedly wiping out an entire convent, so yeah.

Just in case you were still wondering why I don't have a very high opinion of the novels in general. :P

And before you say the stealers are to dumb, The magus and the hybrids should still be smart enough.

You only get a magus and hybrids after the Cult was already started, though, and at this point they focus on dominating the world they are on. The single Genestealer is actually not very intelligent; they only grow so after having impregnated a couple victims, apparently as they psychically draw strength from the adoration of their thralls. The larger the Cult, the larger its gestalt consciousness, and the stronger its Patriarch.

"A vigorous investigation by the Inquisition, commissioned by Inquisitor Kryptmann, subsequently discovered that the Genestealer is a vanguard organism; the precursor to a full-scale Tyranid attack. This explained their presence aboard the space hulks, immense agglomerations of debris and wrecked craft that float ponderously through the warp, periodically reappearing in real space.

Most space hulks are empty, lifeless shells. However, a significant number have been found to contain rare and archaic machinery, or relics from the Dark Age of Technology. Such a prize is without price, and no amount of risk is unjustified in its retrieval. As a result, Explorators, treasure hunters and pioneers have been known to board a space hulk in the hope of uncovering such devices. Unfortunately they often uncover nests of Genestealers, which proceed to impregnate them before allowing them to return to civilised worlds. In this manner the Genestealer spreads the Tyranid infection across the galaxy."

-- White Dwarf 266 : The Ultimate Predator

It's a bit like Alien , really. An obvious inspiration. ;)

A simple like isn't enough to emote how much I agree with this post. Wonderful stuff.

Play your Smurf like Titus in the Space Marine video game, and there's no issues. Play him like Leandros from same game, and... well, just don't.

In the absence of the proposed Space Marine sequels (Titus goes rogue for a bit then founds his own chapter after clearing his name and rooting out a conspiracy) I'd like to think the Inquisitor at the end of the game just turned to Titus as the dropship doors closed and offered him a tour in the Deathwatch. The guy slaughtered the bulk of an Ork WAAAGH and solos groups of Bloodletters, for Emp's Sake.