It seems pretty cut and dry for people who play tournaments and read those rules. Not everyone does and I didn't even know that tournament rule existed. No real problem but I've wondered why they worded it this way. Nothing in the rules that I know of says anything like the tournament rule of discard actually mean keep face down.

It is in the current Rules Reference, and has been since the second core set came out:

When an Upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped facedown. The card is out of play for all purposes except when determining the total squad point cost of the ship to which it was equipped. If an Upgrade card is flipped faceup by a game effect, it returns to play equipped to the same ship.

Cool, I did not catch the change.

Thanks,

Cool, I did not catch the change.

Thanks,

I'm still not sure what will happen if you force a dual sided card to be discarded though. The faceup side is active, when discarded, the other side is now faceup.

People have taken them in the past, such as 4 scimitar with Prox mines and Doom shuttle and placed top 4, but in comparison with what's available sadly there are better options.

I'll remain optimistic and say using one -2 may do well in the right list, but still. What I hate about them is no shields. When every I do fly them most of the time when they take dmg its a crit that gets through. I think this doesn't help in competitive events because your going to be playing 4-6 games with them, and those crits can make a big impact, so players tend to use this that can dodge all day or has a lot of shields.

I was really excited when I saw Imperial veterans, but now I'm disappointed with the bomber aspect of it. Sadly with what currently out there bombers as ordnance carriers are going to stay where they are. We may see them more as crew carriers, which urks me.

I wish I had one store in my province that had some competitive event, but sadly there isn't. I'd love test out a bomber list in a competitive environment, but again I have to travel out of province, so when I do, I prefer not to spend money and time on testing out builds, and just use what I know will get me a top spot for sure

@kinggargoyl

How did you do at National with that list?

I went 4 and 1 (with 2 modified wins) in Flight 2, and barely lost my final 2 games on Saturday (two mental mistakes and couple bad dice rolls). Faced triple scouts (lost by 2hp), crack a-wings (modified win), triple aces (full win), dengar/manaroo (full win), and poe/jake/kyle (modified win). I finished the tournament 32 after the cut.

The list works, it just isn't very forgiving at all to mistakes. I had no illusions going into things thinking it could win the whole thing (it will loose untimed matches the bombers just don't have the damage output once their numbers are dwindled).

I'll remain optimistic and say using one -2 may do well in the right list, but still. What I hate about them is no shields. When every I do fly them most of the time when they take dmg its a crit that gets through. I think this doesn't help in competitive events because your going to be playing 4-6 games with them, and those crits can make a big impact, so players tend to use this that can dodge all day or has a lot of shields.

I played my Bombers back with the old damage deck and before Extra Munitions. It was the worst! I would always be losing my secondary weapons. ALWAYS! Yes, they are a crit magnet.

That's why I think Moff Jerrod would be a good option on a Shuttle Crew. I consider it a 2 pt Shield Upgrade. Even just Tomax w/ Crack Shot and the Moff wouldn't be a bad option.

@kinggargoyl

How did you do at National with that list?

I went 4 and 1 (with 2 modified wins) in Flight 2, and barely lost my final 2 games on Saturday (two mental mistakes and couple bad dice rolls). Faced triple scouts (lost by 2hp), crack a-wings (modified win), triple aces (full win), dengar/manaroo (full win), and poe/jake/kyle (modified win). I finished the tournament 32 after the cut.

The list works, it just isn't very forgiving at all to mistakes. I had no illusions going into things thinking it could win the whole thing (it will loose untimed matches the bombers just don't have the damage output once their numbers are dwindled).

I'm quite sick of our current meta, uBoats aces is all it seems lately (I'm guilty of this as well as I won store championship with whisper omega and yorr). Be nice to see ships that haven't been in the spotlight shine, hell even a scyk list made it into a top spot somewhere.

I really love the design and feel for bombers, I feel this "fix " for them is a little late, and they still require something.

I know numerous times I wish they had a way to get an evade. Because with two agility and no shields when my opponent rolls hit hit crit, I know I'm taking that crit before I even roll me dice, and to me that's one of the problems bombers have.

Ywings have an option to all least make their dial better using droids. Bombers do not. You could use the tie engine mod, but no chips or lrs, and that still doesn't help their turns. For a ship that usually wants to slow roll, I find that three turn is not good.

I'm quite sick of our current meta, uBoats aces is all it seems lately. Be nice to see ships that haven't been in the spotlight shine

You can always play a Casual game....

Personally, I like finding someone who wants to play a B-team list is great. You can put on the table all the ships you never see. Just make sure to ban those like Soontir Fel, the Emperor, Poe Dameron, Bro Bots, and Jumpmasters.

@kinggargoyl

How did you do at National with that list?

I went 4 and 1 (with 2 modified wins) in Flight 2, and barely lost my final 2 games on Saturday (two mental mistakes and couple bad dice rolls). Faced triple scouts (lost by 2hp), crack a-wings (modified win), triple aces (full win), dengar/manaroo (full win), and poe/jake/kyle (modified win). I finished the tournament 32 after the cut.

The list works, it just isn't very forgiving at all to mistakes. I had no illusions going into things thinking it could win the whole thing (it will loose untimed matches the bombers just don't have the damage output once their numbers are dwindled).

I'm quite sick of our current meta, uBoats aces is all it seems lately. Be nice to see ships that haven't been in the spotlight shine

You can always play a Casual game....

Personally, I like finding someone who wants to play a B-team list is great. You can put on the table all the ships you never see. Just make sure to ban those like Soontir Fel, the Emperor, Poe Dameron, Bro Bots, and Jumpmasters.

I've already stated maybe my last tournament. Would love to play more epic.

@kinggargoyl

How did you do at National with that list?

I went 4 and 1 (with 2 modified wins) in Flight 2, and barely lost my final 2 games on Saturday (two mental mistakes and couple bad dice rolls). Faced triple scouts (lost by 2hp), crack a-wings (modified win), triple aces (full win), dengar/manaroo (full win), and poe/jake/kyle (modified win). I finished the tournament 32 after the cut.

The list works, it just isn't very forgiving at all to mistakes. I had no illusions going into things thinking it could win the whole thing (it will loose untimed matches the bombers just don't have the damage output once their numbers are dwindled).

How do you fly it?

Very slowly usually as I want to control when the first engagement happens and keep people in front. Personally I fly them in formation most of the time, and spread them out more against aces but still close enough together that I can get focus fire on a target. I also take all debris fields. I try to keep the bombers out of the rocks so try to set them up on side of the board, and have my opponent come to me. In this list I used the old damage deck. The crits aren't as bad and there are several that I can just ignore the effects out right. The new damage deck just is way more brutal on bombers.

Seismic charges used at the right time can give aces some fits and they can and most of the time do out joust the Jumpmasters. Tracers are there just to get that target lock against ships like Dengar or when I can't get it at range 3 because bombers are moving first. I have found that if you really want to slow roll a bomber group.

What worked for me and my play style may not necessarily work for somebody that is more aggressive. I've found that people that have problems with bombers and the dial, usually are the people that want to play everything like a PTL interceptor.

My whole point in taking them to nationals was to make day two. To show that Bombers don't suck, and they can be competitive. To the point that they made the cut, I was beyond ecstatic anything else after that was just gravy.

I also like putting obstacles on my side . It helps prevent any flankers from coming in fast and coming at you from the sides. I like debris, as well.

Controlling the approach is crucial. I had a friend that I played game after game after game one day to learn the approach. I didn't see him for a while after that. He just saw me lose and lose vs. him trying to learn the approach. If I got it wrong, I would lose half my list in a turn or two. I would just concede and we would start again. I finally saw him at the Store Champ and he laughed and asked how bad I was doing with my Bombers. The look on his face when I told him I was undefeated going into final four made it all worth it.

I have to laugh about the PTL comment! I think you are right. I'm not stuck on PTL at all and usually don't fly ships that need it.

Congrates on making the cut!

@kinggargoyl

How did you do at National with that list?

I went 4 and 1 (with 2 modified wins) in Flight 2, and barely lost my final 2 games on Saturday (two mental mistakes and couple bad dice rolls). Faced triple scouts (lost by 2hp), crack a-wings (modified win), triple aces (full win), dengar/manaroo (full win), and poe/jake/kyle (modified win). I finished the tournament 32 after the cut.

The list works, it just isn't very forgiving at all to mistakes. I had no illusions going into things thinking it could win the whole thing (it will loose untimed matches the bombers just don't have the damage output once their numbers are dwindled).

Well nice to hear you did well, but sadly it Wasn't enough. I wish you did win. Be nice to see them in a top spot for once.

I'm quite sick of our current meta, uBoats aces is all it seems lately (I'm guilty of this as well as I won store championship with whisper omega and yorr). Be nice to see ships that haven't been in the spotlight shine, hell even a scyk list made it into a top spot somewhere.

I really love the design and feel for bombers, I feel this "fix " for them is a little late, and they still require something.

I know numerous times I wish they had a way to get an evade. Because with two agility and no shields when my opponent rolls hit hit crit, I know I'm taking that crit before I even roll me dice, and to me that's one of the problems bombers have.

Ywings have an option to all least make their dial better using droids. Bombers do not. You could use the tie engine mod, but no chips or lrs, and that still doesn't help their turns. For a ship that usually wants to slow roll, I find that three turn is not good.

Slow rolling is pretty easy. 1 forward, barrel roll back. You move a half a distance. If you angle them and set them up along the back edge, you can walk along the back edge of the mat for several turns before break out to attack.

I don't mind the 3 hard, the two hard isn't bad when you absolutlely need it you are just stuck possibly with a either a 1 forward or 2 bank to clear the stress. You learn to live within the dial and the best moves the bomber still has are the 1 forward green and the 5K. The bombers is a support ship, and yes you can make it an alpha strike list, it just probably won't win a Untimed final table match.

As for the evade, it would be nice, and with Cool Hand on Tomax Bren, you can get that evade especially with the Tie Shuttle title and carrying a fleet officer. You'll want twin ion engine to help clear that stress. Again the bomber is going to be a support ship or a ship that helps soften up a target.

Slow rolling is pretty easy. 1 forward, barrel roll back. You move a half a distance. If you angle them and set them up along the back edge, you can walk along the back edge of the mat for several turns before break out to attack.

Yes. Or...the 1 bank and then BR to get the angle. Great for keeping arc dodgers in your firing arc.

You learn to live within the dial and the best moves the bomber still has are the 1 forward green and the 5K.

Yes! Those are the 2 best moves for it.

As for the evade, it would be nice, and with Cool Hand on Tomax Bren, you can get that evade especially with the Tie Shuttle title and carrying a fleet officer. You'll want twin ion engine to help clear that stress. Again the bomber is going to be a support ship or a ship that helps soften up a target.

Yssanne is also an option to get that Evade as you know you will take damage. Expensive at 4 pts, though. I also like Rebel Captive to at least cause pause for all your high PS PTL ships that won't want to fire at it.

I'll admit that I wasn't thinking much about the Bomber Shuttle, but I'm really warming to a Tomax Bren w/ Crack Shot and Rebel Captive idea.

You have almost the same list I came up with. I had whisper, tomax (two aces a 8 and 9) and a Gamma vet. Or omega leader (which gives you another annoying ship)

Whisper

Kallus

Fcs

Advanced cloak

Veteran Instincts

Tomax

Crackshot

Extra Munitions

Guidance chips

Proton Torpedoes

Gamma vet

Deadeye

Extra Munitions

Guidance chips

Homing missles

Leaves you at 99 pts for initiative. No need for flying in formation. Two high PS ships. All pack a punch. I do look forward to trying this soon

See, I think this is a strong list and it can do well against all the top meta builds.

My only suggestion is to drop deadeye and guidance chips and go with crack shot and LRS. Seriously, you should practice with it and familiarize yourself with how to get good value out of it. Its the sleeper hit of the Imperial Vets box (for bombers). And I'm not just making this up because I've been blinded by some teenage crush I have on bombers (I never liked the bomber much in fact----I'm getting Imperial Vets primarily for the Defenders, but seeing just how GOOD LRS + Crack shot + homing missile is, well, I can't help but run it in some lists).

Two reasons why LRS + crack shot is superior to deadeye + guidance chips: 1) Soontir Fel and other aces backed by Palpatine cannot stop 1 damage from getting through. CANNOT. I mean it could happen with really really bad luck, but the odds of it happening are pretty small. With deadeye + chips, the odds of the homing missile doing zero damage is significantly higher. 2) Long-range scanners can be used psychologically. You put it on a ship at the start of the game so your opponent flies very defensively with that ship. Then you change the TL later and mess with your opponent's approach. You see, LRS + Crack Shot is DANGEROUS. Your opponent ABSOLUTELY cannot fly into those firing arcs so you can use that knowledge to your advantage. In fact, it kind of makes aces more predictable because they are going to avoid 'obvious' moves that put them in jousting positions (and if you can guess which other move they are going to pick, you have a shot on them----and even one shot can be really bad for them. If you get 2 shots, well its game over for that ace).

Of course its still a game of cat and mouse, and if you guess wrong the aces can punish your bombers, but in a list including Whisper, its really not that easy on Soontir. You have the tools to take him out----its just a matter of guessing right. So yeah, I'm not trying to sell this as some 'easy win' against aces. The only 'easy win' would be vader crew + gunner (and even then its not a SURE thing). All part of what makes this game so exciting though!

So seriously, give LRS + homing missiles + crack shot a try

You have almost the same list I came up with. I had whisper, tomax (two aces a 8 and 9) and a Gamma vet. Or omega leader (which gives you another annoying ship)

Whisper

Kallus

Fcs

Advanced cloak

Veteran Instincts

Tomax

Crackshot

Extra Munitions

Guidance chips

Proton Torpedoes

Gamma vet

Deadeye

Extra Munitions

Guidance chips

Homing missles

Leaves you at 99 pts for initiative. No need for flying in formation. Two high PS ships. All pack a punch. I do look forward to trying this soon

See, I think this is a strong list and it can do well against all the top meta builds.

My only suggestion is to drop deadeye and guidance chips and go with crack shot and LRS. Seriously, you should practice with it and familiarize yourself with how to get good value out of it. Its the sleeper hit of the Imperial Vets box (for bombers). And I'm not just making this up because I've been blinded by some teenage crush I have on bombers (I never liked the bomber much in fact----I'm getting Imperial Vets primarily for the Defenders, but seeing just how GOOD LRS + Crack shot + homing missile is, well, I can't help but run it in some lists).

Two reasons why LRS + crack shot is superior to deadeye + guidance chips: 1) Soontir Fel and other aces backed by Palpatine cannot stop 1 damage from getting through. CANNOT. I mean it could happen with really really bad luck, but the odds of it happening are pretty small. With deadeye + chips, the odds of the homing missile doing zero damage is significantly higher. 2) Long-range scanners can be used psychologically. You put it on a ship at the start of the game so your opponent flies very defensively with that ship. Then you change the TL later and mess with your opponent's approach. You see, LRS + Crack Shot is DANGEROUS. Your opponent ABSOLUTELY cannot fly into those firing arcs so you can use that knowledge to your advantage. In fact, it kind of makes aces more predictable because they are going to avoid 'obvious' moves that put them in jousting positions (and if you can guess which other move they are going to pick, you have a shot on them----and even one shot can be really bad for them. If you get 2 shots, well its game over for that ace).

Of course its still a game of cat and mouse, and if you guess wrong the aces can punish your bombers, but in a list including Whisper, its really not that easy on Soontir. You have the tools to take him out----its just a matter of guessing right. So yeah, I'm not trying to sell this as some 'easy win' against aces. The only 'easy win' would be vader crew + gunner (and even then its not a SURE thing). All part of what makes this game so exciting though!

So seriously, give LRS + homing missiles + crack shot a try

Actually after little more thought about this I do like the idea. Having 1 ship with LRS may not be a bad idea afterall. Enough that it'll really make someone flying very cautious, which in turn can lead the them making more mistakes.

If it did come across fel that homing missle, plus crackshot is going to be hard for him to avoid so long as your luck doesn't run out.

If you want an easier time v aces, make one of the bombers a Conner net death fire

With conners extras homing and long range scanners, he's 28 points with is just 1 more than an extra homing crack gamma vet

**** good fun

Yeah I need to experiment with Deathfire, I have some bombing based lists I want to toy with over the next few months.

Wow....I like the idea of Crack Shot and LRS! You have a 2% chance of getting no hits. If you have just one Tie Bomber facing off vs. Soontir Fel (or other ace) than it would force him to not engage.

That's a 25 pt ship (27 if you go with Extra Munitions) to keep a Stealth Soontir out of the match for a bit. Not bad at all!

Also works against U-boats, Bro Bots, Howlrunner, and others.

It can be the only Bomber in a list....or....

Wow....I like the idea of Crack Shot and LRS! You have a 2% chance of getting no hits. If you have just one Tie Bomber facing off vs. Soontir Fel (or other ace) than it would force him to not engage.

That's a 25 pt ship (27 if you go with Extra Munitions) to keep a Stealth Soontir out of the match for a bit. Not bad at all!

Also works against U-boats, Bro Bots, Howlrunner, and others.

It can be the only Bomber in a list....or....

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Crack Shot (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Extra Munitions (2)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Extra Munitions (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Orrrr:

I just hate the idea of losing that 4th Missile.....

I just hate the idea of losing that 4th Missile.....

But think of the things! The Things!

Wow....I like the idea of Crack Shot and LRS! You have a 2% chance of getting no hits. If you have just one Tie Bomber facing off vs. Soontir Fel (or other ace) than it would force him to not engage.

That's a 25 pt ship (27 if you go with Extra Munitions) to keep a Stealth Soontir out of the match for a bit. Not bad at all!

Also works against U-boats, Bro Bots, Howlrunner, and others.

It can be the only Bomber in a list....or....

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Crack Shot (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Extra Munitions (2)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

Gamma Squadron Pilot (18)

Extra Munitions (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Orrrr:

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Crack Shot (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Crack Shot (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (19)

Crack Shot (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Homing Missiles (5)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Fleet Officer (3)

Systems Officer (2)

TIE Shuttle (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

If your using it to support two ships then he has no defense modifiers, and If you use it to support one your other bombers aren't being their full potential.

Plus it still leaves you with some formation restriction which I find lately with bombers its best to try keep them spread apart. Yes it's range 2 not 1 but still you have to keep that distance.

I think the idea with crackshot and homing missles is that with homing missles you prevent ships like fel from getting to use that evade token, paired up with crackshot leaving you a better chance to push that dmg through.

If a ship has 3 evade dice and an evade he can potentially stop 4 hits.

Homing missles with crackshot prevents that from happening.

I may try it out tonight

Whisper, tomax. And Gamma vet with crackshot, lrs and homing missles, as posted above

See I've tried using Fleet Officer and while I want to like it, find the ship that has it dies fast

If your using it to support two ships then he has no defense modifiers, and If you use it to support one your other bombers aren't being their full potential.

Plus it still leaves you with some formation restriction which I find lately with bombers its best to try keep them spread apart. Yes it's range 2 not 1 but still you have to keep that distance.

The only success I've had with Fleet Officer was to stick it on an Omnicron with Adv. Sensors. I flew it with Backstabber, Night Beast, Dark Curse, and 2 Academy Pilots. The 2 free Focus each round really helped keep all the ships alive. Even the Academy Pilots. Night Beast could get his own free Focus and Dark Curse was just a pain. It was great.....as long as you didn't face high agility arc dodgers. Still fun. I named it Space Cowboys....as they herd the space cow around.

See I've tried using Fleet Officer and while I want to like it, find the ship that has it dies fast

If your using it to support two ships then he has no defense modifiers, and If you use it to support one your other bombers aren't being their full potential.

Plus it still leaves you with some formation restriction which I find lately with bombers its best to try keep them spread apart. Yes it's range 2 not 1 but still you have to keep that distance.

The only success I've had with Fleet Officer was to stick it on an Omnicron with Adv. Sensors. I flew it with Backstabber, Night Beast, Dark Curse, and 2 Academy Pilots. The 2 free Focus each round really helped keep all the ships alive. Even the Academy Pilots. Night Beast could get his own free Focus and Dark Curse was just a pain. It was great.....as long as you didn't face high agility arc dodgers. Still fun. I named it Space Cowboys....as they herd the space cow around.

Three Scimitar all with tactician And Mara jade, rebel captive, and Fleet Officer followed by vessery with title. Tractor beam and crackshot. Gives vessery two focuses (passes him one and vessery action for the other) and tl all Day. Works great, but he's still usually the first to die

I don't mind losing a missile. Imo, you're better off with a blocker when wielding TL dependent ordnance anyway

Homing extra Conner D-fire - 28

Homing extra Crackshot Gamma Vet - 27

Another one - 27

TAPs Test Pilot with title - 17

[99 total]

Could also be a crack omega squaddie

Could also be a lowly academy if you want to use Bren or the Inquisitor