You have yet to convince me that not playing my opponents figure for him is cheating. There is nothing in the rules stating it is. Until such exists it won't be seen as cheating. The rules everyone has pointed too are in almost every other FFG game and none of them rule on the side you all seem to think they do. I see now reason for IA to be any different.

Simple answer really.

Answer:

The answer is yes, both players are responsible for maintaining the game state. Mandatory triggers are both players responsibility to recognize, both positive and negative.

I would describe your position as simply as being in denial. Recognizing a trigger but consciously not doing this to gain an advantage is simply cheating. End of story. Exact same expectations as with the other miniature ffg game, such as rebel captive.

From the words of the developer, so I am not sure where the evidence to the contrary is coming from.

You have yet to convince me that not playing my opponents figure for him is cheating. There is nothing in the rules stating it is. Until such exists it won't be seen as cheating. The rules everyone has pointed too are in almost every other FFG game and none of them rule on the side you all seem to think they do. I see now reason for IA to be any different.

I get what you're saying, I really do. It shouldn't be your job to remind your opponent of his missed triggers.

The problem we are all having here, I think, is that there is a misunderstanding about what the current ruling is regarding game state and who's responsibility it is to maintain.

From what I can gather, the rules query about this was officially responded to with; both players are equally responsible for maintaining the game state .

This means, even though you don't want to tell your opponent about his missed mandatory trigger, the rules say you have to.

If you spot the missed mandatory trigger, and decide not tell your opponent about it you have chosen to cheat.

If it's an honest mistake by both parties, and is spotted later it is simply a warning to both players.

It sucks to have to do this, definitely.

But until there is a different ruling, that's the way the game has to be played.

I think most of you are misreading what kennedyhawk is saying. He is not suggesting to not be helpful to yout opponent. He is simply saying, that if both players forget something, it is not ok that both be labeled as cheaters. What kind of gane state is that? Following that logic, we are all cheaters. Every single one who has ever played this game. There was a time we were learning and doing things wrong. Forgetting? Yes. Cheating. No.

I played a game where my opponent forgot to stun his figure after Parting Blow. I forgot, too. That makes me a cheater? No, it majes us both forgetful, because we were both focused on out next turn.

I think most of you are misreading what kennedyhawk is saying. He is not suggesting to not be helpful to yout opponent. He is simply saying, that if both players forget something, it is not ok that both be labeled as cheaters. What kind of gane state is that? Following that logic, we are all cheaters. Every single one who has ever played this game. There was a time we were learning and doing things wrong. Forgetting? Yes. Cheating. No.

I played a game where my opponent forgot to stun his figure after Parting Blow. I forgot, too. That makes me a cheater? No, it majes us both forgetful, because we were both focused on out next turn.

Except that KennedyHawk's example specifically said he would not remind his opponent if they missed a mandatory trigger and KH spotted it.

And by the rules, that is definitely cheating.

That is unless they change the rules to either make mandatory abilities optional or place the burden on the individual players themselves.

Alternatively, you can view it this way;

If your opponent missed their mandatory trigger, and you give them fair chance to notice; call a judge to make them give the player s warning. Problem solved?

Actually, I think this solves all those problems:

My Interpretation of the Missed Opportunities rule would be:
- You forgot one of your own rules, that would have been good for you (e.g. Sentinel): Sorry, you cannot cannot retroactively use it, go on with the game.
- You forgot one of your own rules, that would have been bad for you (e.g. Disposable): You cheated, you'll be punished (somewhere in between a warning and a disqualification).

I think most of you are misreading what kennedyhawk is saying.

He is not suggesting to not be helpful to yout opponent.

my opponent forgot to stun his figure after Parting Blow. I forgot, too.

That is so funny. You say people are misreading the thread, then you have yourself misread what both 'sides' are saying.

I think most of you are misreading what kennedyhawk is saying.

He is not suggesting to not be helpful to yout opponent.

my opponent forgot to stun his figure after Parting Blow. I forgot, too.

That is so funny. You say people are misreading the thread, then you have yourself misread what both 'sides' are saying.

1) KennedyHawk specifically said both "I won't play the game for the opponent." and clarified that he does not tell about mandatory triggers that the opponent misses.

2) Everyone else is saying that if you genuinely don't notice, that is not cheating, it is just an error or forgetfulness. And, it is hard to prove you did in fact notice.

Wonderful. The condescending remark for someone trying to help.

I had forgotten about discussions on the internet for a while. I will leave this topic alone.

I'm sorry for appearing/being blunt. Being a non-native speaker makes me come off like that sometimes.

(I think people are talking beside each other, having two different conversations, or maybe three.)

FFG really just needs a rules section about Missed Required Rules, or something to that effect, that explains what should happen when mandatory triggers/effects are missed.

Missed Opportunities is really not the same thing.

As long as there is no lie detector present, noboby is able to say, if the opponent genuinely just missed it too, or just didn't tell on purpose.

Therefore, for the judge it makes no difference. The judge has to apply the Missed Opportunity rule.

As long as there is no lie detector present, noboby is able to say, if the opponent genuinely just missed it too, or just didn't tell on purpose.

Therefore, for the judge it makes no difference. The judge has to apply the Missed Opportunity rule.

The only problem I have with this stance is that it opens up a massive amount of allowed cheating that cannot be punished in any way. Although you're not saying cheating is okay, having the rule be like this means it is. With no punishment on the table, you encourage cheaters to try to get away with every single little thing they can get away with. If their opponent catches them, "Oops, my mistake. Well, since the timing passed already, your loss."

I asked FFG, how I (being a judge) should behave in a situation, where a mandatory trigger wasn't applied. I gave 2 examples: One situation, where a player forgot a rule of one of his figures, that's positive for himself; and one situation, where a player forgot a rule of one of his figures, that's negative for himself. Both of my examples included, that several activations (and attacks) have been performed, since the mandatory trigger wasn't applied.

I added, that for me as a judge this is a very inconvenient situation. No matter what I decide, it feels wrong.

Thanks for posting that. It pretty much matches what I expected and guessed at in earlier posts.

Funny that they used the wording "the player who was responsible", which in the case of mandatory triggers is supposed to be both players. Yet they managed to not bring that up in their response.

I think people are talking beside each other, having two different conversations, or maybe three.

You are absolutely right. There are two conversations about gaming ethics and one conversation about how to apply the rules to a tournament game.

1st conversation: Is it cheating, if both players just missed a mandatory trigger?

I think, the common answer is, that this is not cheating, because cheating requires intent, but a mistake doesn't.

Still, there is the strong Argument, that a rule has been broke anyways, and that breaking the rules could be seen as cheating.

2nd conversation: Is it cheating, if one player just missed a mandatory trigger and the opponent didn't miss it, but didn't remind his opponent?

Both players are responsible for all mandatory rules. So technically it is cheating.

But as long as the opponent doesn't confess, that he didn't miss the trigger, there is the benefit of the doubt.

3rd conversation:

How should a judge behave in a situation, where a mandatory trigger wasn't applied. Especially, when several activations (and attacks) have been performed, since the mandatory trigger wasn't applied.

Funny that they used the wording " the player who was responsible", which in the case of mandatory triggers is supposed to be both players. Yet they managed to not bring that up in their response.

Make sure they understand that they are responsible for their triggers and abilities.

Actually, my interpretation would have been, that everyone is responsible for the rules on his own cards only...

I think both players being responsible for mandatory triggers means that neither player can be punished (disqualified or whatnot) for missing them.

Consider the following scenario:

I attack an opponent's heavy stormtrooper from 4+ range.

I roll 4 damage, he rolls 1 block.

I say "I rolled 4 damage, you got 1 block, so that's 3 damage."

My opponent puts 3 damage on his heavy and we continue on.

Significantly later, he realizes he should have had 2 blocks from the heavy's mandatory ability. Let's assume we can't rewind for whatever reason.

In this case, I get zero consequences whatsoever for cheating him out of 1 block?

1st: I wouldn't use the word "cheating", if you genuinely missed it.

2nd: [Devil's Advocate] Actually, your opponent cheated, when he put the 3 damage on his figure, when he was obligated to put only two damage on his figure. He broke the rules, when he forgot to add the free block to his result. The Defense roll is the defender's responsibility. [/Devil's Advocate]

Let me explain, why I think, that everyone is responsible for the rules on his own cards only:

Adapt: The first time your opponent plays a Command card each round, choose 1 Spy or Trooper . That figure becomes Hidden.

Last Stand : When you are defeated, choose another figure in your group. That figure becomes Focused.

In both cases, the player was obligated to choose a figure, but didn't do so. Therefore, he is the one that broke the rule. The opponent wouldn't call a judge, to have him punished for breaking the rule. He himself wouldn't insist on someone being punished for breaking the rule, as he would have to be punished himself. Therefore, in the best case, he can still remove 1 Damage from that Trooper. In the worst case, there indeed are zero consequences.

Completely different point of view:

I think both players being responsible for mandatory triggers means that neither player can be punished (disqualified or whatnot) for missing them.

Still the same result: In the best case, he can still remove 1 Damage from that Trooper. In the worst case, there indeed are zero consequences.

Your devil's advocate response ignores the fact that both players are responsible for mandatory triggers.

You also leave this out of your next response. Both players are obligated to make sure the one player chooses a figure.

Of course if we got by the interpretation that both players are not responsible for mandatory triggers (the exact opposite of the rules query response I received), then sure.

I just dislike that this encourages players to try to get their opponents to miss things by misleading them on game state for effects that are essentially part of the figure.

Your proposed ruling suggests that I should play like your abilities don't exist until you bring them up. Doing something like:

I kill your stormtrooper with one figure in a group. I immediately begin moving the next figure in the group in the hopes you forget about Last Stand. Of course, if you remember soon enough, that's fine and I let you have it because speedy play can't force you to skip things. If you don't remember it in time for the "you can't skip things via fast play" rule to be relevant because enough time has passed, you lose it.

vs.

I kill your stormtrooper, ensure you focus one, then continue with the turn.

If both of these lines of play are valid, you're encouraging players to follow the top one as it sometimes presents an advantage.

In the heavy trooper example, you have given the attacking player no reason to ever use the right damage calculation just in case the opponent forgets.

I prefer the tournament rules to encourage following the game rules vs encouraging not following them.

I think most of you are misreading what kennedyhawk is saying.

He is not suggesting to not be helpful to yout opponent.

my opponent forgot to stun his figure after Parting Blow. I forgot, too.

That is so funny. You say people are misreading the thread, then you have yourself misread what both 'sides' are saying.

1) KennedyHawk specifically said both "I won't play the game for the opponent." and clarified that he does not tell about mandatory triggers that the opponent misses.

2) Everyone else is saying that if you genuinely don't notice, that is not cheating, it is just an error or forgetfulness. And, it is hard to prove you did in fact notice.

Wonderful. The condescending remark for someone trying to help.

I had forgotten about discussions on the internet for a while. I will leave this topic alone.

No worries sonny trolls be trolls.

I decided to email FFG and step away from this thread as I was sick of being talked down to.

I did get a response, no one here is going to like it.

Hi KennedyHawk,

Thanks for getting in touch!

I’m curious where the language of “both players are responsible for maintaining the game state” can be found. If you have a moment, would you mind passing it along? I have seen similar language in the past, but cannot find it in any of our current Star Wars ™: Imperial Assault rules documents. I understand you may be pulling from the discussion you have been having with others and the wording might not be yours.

In direct answer to your concern, we do not believe the opponent is responsible for remembering a player’s triggers or abilities. No rules have changed regarding this matter.

Best Regards,

Brendan

I explained multiple situations with these mandatory triggers and asked how we are expected to enforce a rule where your opponent is responsible for reminding his opponent of these triggers etc. Brenden's response basically tells me that this is not the case.

Take it for what it's worth but this it the logical way that all other FFG games apply this rule.

I think most of you are misreading what kennedyhawk is saying. He is not suggesting to not be helpful to yout opponent. He is simply saying, that if both players forget something, it is not ok that both be labeled as cheaters. What kind of gane state is that? Following that logic, we are all cheaters. Every single one who has ever played this game. There was a time we were learning and doing things wrong. Forgetting? Yes. Cheating. No.

I played a game where my opponent forgot to stun his figure after Parting Blow. I forgot, too. That makes me a cheater? No, it majes us both forgetful, because we were both focused on out next turn.

Except that KennedyHawk's example specifically said he would not remind his opponent if they missed a mandatory trigger and KH spotted it.

And by the rules, that is definitely cheating.

That is unless they change the rules to either make mandatory abilities optional or place the burden on the individual players themselves.

Alternatively, you can view it this way;

If your opponent missed their mandatory trigger, and you give them fair chance to notice; call a judge to make them give the player s warning. Problem solved?

All I am saying is no player should be held accountable or called a cheater for not helping his opponent complete his triggers. FFG's rules inquiry agreed.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do this.

In face in one post I did say I usually remind my opponents of triggers in this and other games, but it is by no means a responsibility or a call for cheating if you do not.

Thanks for posting that. It pretty much matches what I expected and guessed at in earlier posts.

Funny that they used the wording "the player who was responsible", which in the case of mandatory triggers is supposed to be both players. Yet they managed to not bring that up in their response.

Based on the email I got this is not true. It is not the responsibility of both players.

In FFG's response they specifically say "Use this as a teaching situation for both players. Make sure they understand that they are responsible for their triggers and abilities, and that sometimes it is impossible to fix a mistake once too much time has passed."

When I read this it implies each player is responsible for his or her own triggers. As would be expected in any game.

The bottom line is we've gotten rules responses both ways. Hopefully this prompts them to clean up the FAQ and end this discussion before Worlds (probably not GENCON)