1. I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

2. No. The only action a KO:d hero can do is to take a Stand Up Action or do nothing. It can't change it's equipment. It is, after all, knocked out.

3. Yes. It goes to the nearest non-lava space. If I remember correctly, this is clarified in the last paragraph under the "Lava" entry in the rulebook.

4. I would say yes, but I suppose it's arguable. The rules state that you take damage when you enter such a space. Not having previously been in that space, you should count as entering it.

5. No clue. I don't recognize the quest and I don't have my quest guide on hand. But if I'm understanding the question right, it has nothing to do with the quest itself. You're asking if you can take one step with a large monster, and then expand it to it's full size? If so, yes. You can even take a move action, expand at the end of it, and then take another move action, or interrupt your move action (such as to attack) and expand, attack, and then move further. It's a handy way to get some extra moves out of a large monster for a savvy Overlord.

A hero would never "rise" in a space, because, as Luckmann explained, their token is placed out of the lava when they are knocked out.

A hero using a "teleporting" feat would not take damage from lava if he was removed from the map and placed as this is not movement and is not considered entering a space. The same is true for familiars.

A hero using a "teleporting" feat would not take damage from lava if he was removed from the map and placed as this is not movement and is not considered entering a space. The same is true for familiars.

Say what? Being placed in a space from another space on the map is very definitely entering a space.

Being placed on the map from off the map (standing up, reinforcements, summoning familiars, etc) is not.

[...]

A hero using a "teleporting" feat would not take damage from lava if he was removed from the map and placed as this is not movement and is not considered entering a space. The same is true for familiars.

Is this clarified anywhere? Like I said in my post, I'm not sure myself, but I'd be inclined to argue that you're entering something whether you moved to do it or not, and whether you were previously adjacent to the square or not.

Edit:

A hero using a "teleporting" feat would not take damage from lava if he was removed from the map and placed as this is not movement and is not considered entering a space. The same is true for familiars.

Say what? Being placed in a space from another space on the map is very definitely entering a space.

Being placed on the map from off the map (standing up, reinforcements, summoning familiars, etc) is not.

I'm inclined to agree with the former, but on the latter point, is that clarified anywhere, then?

Also, most forms of "teleporting" explicitly involves taking your character off the map and then placing them elsewhere. I think that's what he meant.

Such as Tomble Burrowell's Heroic Feat , or Tinashi the Wanderer's Heroic Feat .

Meanwhile, the Sorcerer's Summon does not involve removing the figure.

So using your logic, a Sorcerer summoning another Sorcerer minion into lava, would make that sorcerer take damage from Lava, but if Tomble Burrowell or Tinashi the Wanderer uses their Heroic Feats, they wouldn't take damage (but they'd obviously still die if they end their turn in lava) and I was just wondering why. To me, they'd all be entering a Lava space.

1) You cannot count spaces through doors. there is no "nearest space" on the other side of a door.

2) Yes, heroes can equip items as normal while KO, as this is part of the start of turn phase.

3) Depends. If the hero was defeated because he ended his turn in lava , the rules state he gets placed in the nearest empty non-lava space. If he's defeated by anything else (whether he is in a lava space or not) he stays where he is.

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

5) Yes, but you cannot just shrink and expand for no reason. That is, once you start moving, you can only expand to interrupt the movement, and this has to be done only when your tiny 1x1 shadow dragon could declare an action (and only when he is declaring and action.) That is, your TINY dragon needs to be adjacent to a hero if you want to declare an attack. You can't say, "I'm going to expand and then I'll be in range to attack him." You have to be in range to attack BEFORE you expand.

I swear I remember having the discussion about feats that "remove a character from the map" and entering a space.

I'll defer to Zaltyre's expertise

I swear I remember having the discussion about feats that "remove a character from the map" and entering a space.

I'll defer to Zaltyre's expertise

You might be thinking of "move into a space" for purposes such as nimble, because removing and placing is not that. The similarity between that and what you said is not lost on me.

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

I'm having trouble finding the specific email, but it was in a rules question I asked back toward the end of 2014.

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

You can only enter a space when you are already in another space. Just like you can't enter a car if you are not next to it. So when you are not on the map you 'appear' in a space instead of entering it. Please note that teleporting is not the same as 'appearing' because that figure was already on the map and is thus 'entering' a space.

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

You can only enter a space when you are already in another space. Just like you can't enter a car if you are not next to it. So when you are not on the map you 'appear' in a space instead of entering it. Please note that teleporting is not the same as 'appearing' because that figure was already on the map and is thus 'entering' a space.

In most cases of "teleportation" though, you are explicitly taken off the board before being put back down on the board from outside the map. The only instance I could find of it not being worded that way was actually the Sorcerers (but there may be others).

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

You can only enter a space when you are already in another space. Just like you can't enter a car if you are not next to it. So when you are not on the map you 'appear' in a space instead of entering it. Please note that teleporting is not the same as 'appearing' because that figure was already on the map and is thus 'entering' a space.

In most cases of "teleportation" though, you are explicitly taken off the board before being put back down on the board from outside the map. The only instance I could find of it not being worded that way was actually the Sorcerers (but there may be others).

Actually, when you are 'teleported' in Descent you are not off the map because the abilities that allow you to 'teleport' don't mention that the figure is taken off the map (The physical removal of a figure off the map is not the same as a figure being 'off the map', confusing but true). 'Teleporting' in Descent is just a movement that allows you to ignore the presence of figure between your starting space and the target space. Note that you are still required to count space, which is not possible through obstacles and doors. Which is the case not only for movement, but also for other abilities.

Very confusing, but when in doubt: When a figure goes from point A to point B, that figure is always 'entering' point B.

Luckmann- I understand what you're referring to, where some abilities say "remove and place" and others just say "place." As far as I understand, there is no difference.

The difference between entering and not entering lies in where the motion (be it a move, jump, teleport, whatever) originated- from a space, or from off the map.

In this way, reinforcements or monsters set up on lava don't immediately suffer damage. A hero standing up in a pit doesn't immediately suffer 2 more damage, a wolf summoned near a demonlord doesn't immediately suffer aura.

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

I'm having trouble finding the specific email, but it was in a rules question I asked back toward the end of 2014.

Here you go.

Question:

"Question regarding entering a space: Apart from movement when does a character/monster count as having entered a space? There are several instances where a figure is "Placed" in a space, for example during overlord reinforcement, hero standup/revive and other skills (geomancers "teleport" skill etc). In these situations, does the figure count as having entered that space?"

Answer from Nathan:

" It’s hard to give a umbrella rule for this, but a good rule of thumb is that if the figure was already on the map when it is placed/moved into a new space, that figure is entering that space. If you are not moving the figure from one space to another, but placing a figure that was not on the map, that figure is not entering that space."

Link to original thread.

That was what I was remembering, but obviously, I got some of the details wrong...

[...]

4) No. Standing up, being reinforced, etc, is not "entering a space". In general, if you're being put in a space, and the last place you were is a space, you're going to be "entering a space." If the last place you were was "off the map", you're generally not "entering a space".

[...]

Still not seeing why you'd think that.

I'm having trouble finding the specific email, but it was in a rules question I asked back toward the end of 2014.

Here you go.

Question:

"Question regarding entering a space: Apart from movement when does a character/monster count as having entered a space? There are several instances where a figure is "Placed" in a space, for example during overlord reinforcement, hero standup/revive and other skills (geomancers "teleport" skill etc). In these situations, does the figure count as having entered that space?"

Answer from Nathan:

" It’s hard to give a umbrella rule for this, but a good rule of thumb is that if the figure was already on the map when it is placed/moved into a new space, that figure is entering that space. If you are not moving the figure from one space to another, but placing a figure that was not on the map, that figure is not entering that space."[/size]

Link to original thread.

Thanks a lot, that's really helpful and pretty much confirms it: if it's moved off the map and later placed from outside the map, it doesn't count as entering. This just turned Tomble Burrowell and Tinashi the Wanderer from good to crazy good, imo - at least if you're playing against an overlord that likes his traps, like I do.

Not sure why the distinction was relevant to make, though. I think it just results in some general weirdness when it comes to Terrains and traps and such.

This just turned Tomble Burrowell and Tinashi the Wanderer from good to crazy good, imo - at least if you're playing against an overlord that likes his traps, like I do.

Sorry to jump in the thread from nowhere...

But just to be sure I understand :

- For Tomble Ok it's removed and comes back from nowhere the next turn...

- But for Tinashi unless I didn't understand ... she gains nothing.. as it's stays on the map and the OL can always play his card.. no?

This just turned Tomble Burrowell and Tinashi the Wanderer from good to crazy good, imo - at least if you're playing against an overlord that likes his traps, like I do.

Sorry to jump in the thread from nowhere...

But just to be sure I understand :

- For Tomble Ok it's removed and comes back from nowhere the next turn...

- But for Tinashi unless I didn't understand ... she gains nothing.. as it's stays on the map and the OL can always play his card.. no?

Tinashi's Heroic Feat states: "Use during your turn to choose an empty space within 3 spaces of your figure. Remove your figure from the map and place it in the chosen space."

It's explicitly removed from the map before being placed in the chosen space. It's not entering; it's being placed from outside the map.

The same goes for Tomble for the same reasons, it's just more clear since he's gone for an entire round. The distinction becomes clear when you look at the Sorcerer's Summon ability, which states: "Choose a minion within 3 spaces of this monster. Place that minion in an empty space adjacent to this monster." This figure is specifically not removed from the map before being moved, and would thus count as entering whichever space you move it to.

This just turned Tomble Burrowell and Tinashi the Wanderer from good to crazy good, imo - at least if you're playing against an overlord that likes his traps, like I do.

Sorry to jump in the thread from nowhere...

But just to be sure I understand :

- For Tomble Ok it's removed and comes back from nowhere the next turn...

- But for Tinashi unless I didn't understand ... she gains nothing.. as it's stays on the map and the OL can always play his card.. no?

Tricky one, I would argue that Tinashi doesn't go 'off the map' but does a movement. I think it is bad writing. The reason I believe Tinashi 'stays on the map' is because she ends her heroic feat in the same turn. So let's make some things clear:)

According to the rules (p. 9) 'moving off the map' is spending a movement point on an entrance/ exit tile. The rules further say that 'some quests allow a figures to move off the map'. Therefore, 'moving off the map' seems to be limited to special quest rules.

So I would argue that when abilities instruct you to 'move off the map' in a context other than spending a movement point on an exit/entrance tile, the rules use poor wording to override normal movement rules and do not refer to a figure actually 'moving off the map'.

This just turned Tomble Burrowell and Tinashi the Wanderer from good to crazy good, imo - at least if you're playing against an overlord that likes his traps, like I do.

Sorry to jump in the thread from nowhere...

But just to be sure I understand :

- For Tomble Ok it's removed and comes back from nowhere the next turn...

- But for Tinashi unless I didn't understand ... she gains nothing.. as it's stays on the map and the OL can always play his card.. no?

Tricky one, I would argue that Tinashi doesn't go 'off the map' but does a movement. I think it is bad writing. The reason I believe Tinashi 'stays on the map' is because she ends her heroic feat in the same turn. So let's make some things clear:)

According to the rules (p. 9) 'moving off the map' is spending a movement point on an entrance/ exit tile. The rules further say that 'some quests allow a figures to move off the map'. Therefore, 'moving off the map' seems to be limited to special quest rules.

So I would argue that when abilities instruct you to 'move off the map' in a context other than spending a movement point on an exit/entrance tile, the rules use poor wording to override normal movement rules and do not refer to a figure actually 'moving off the map'.

Why would you think that it's poor wording, when it's so explicit? There's numerous general rules in the rulebook(s) that are superceded by other more specific rules in quests or on cards. When something conflicts with the general rules, the specific rules always take precedent. There's really no reason to think that the one and only way to leave the map would be by spending a movement point on an entrance/exit tile, when there are explicit mention of being taken off the map through other actions, such as by Heroic Feats.

And sloppy wording or not, that's a discussion on RAI, not RAW. The verdict says: " If you are not moving the figure from one space to another, but placing a figure that was not on the map, that figure is not entering that space."

And both Tomble and Tinashi's Heroic Feats state in no uncertain terms that the figures are removed from the map, while there are other, similar abilities that does not explicitly state that the figures are removed from the map (Such as Summon ). Therefore, the distinction is relevant (by RAW; I still do not see why it was necessary to make one, but that's entirely beside the point). Furthermore, on the topic of RAI, it would have been easy to omit the mention of removing the figures from the map, but it wasn't in either case (and other cases), suggesting the intent was for the distinction to be relevant.

@Ceasersalad101 : In fact it's how I understand it.. to resume it's some sort of direct teleportation

@Luckmann, I understand your arguments you stay to the 'text', as we should in such games...

But as it sems implied by Nathan answer, the main point is the figure not being present 'at all' on the board before beeing put somewhere else.
In this regard Tanashi is on the board at the start of the heroes turn ...

It's why I think it's one of the few times where the text is not to be followed / well written.

But I suppose only FFG could give a more explicit answer... If I have time this evening I will send the Question.. unless someone can send it before ?

@Ceasersalad101 : In fact it's how I understand it.. to resume it's some sort of direct teleportation

@Luckmann, I understand your arguments you stay to the 'text', as we should in such games...

But as it sems implied by Nathan answer, the main point is the figure not being present 'at all' on the board before beeing put somewhere else.

In this regard Tanashi is on the board at the start of the heroes turn ...

It's why I think it's one of the few times where the text is not to be followed / well written.

But I suppose only FFG could give a more explicit answer... If I have time this evening I will send the Question.. unless someone can send it before ?

As much as I would be inclined to agree on the basis of RAI and I think that the answer is diffuse (rather than that the abilities themselves being sloppily written), the implications in RAW are pretty clear to me. The figures were not already on the map when they are being moved or placed, but have actually explicitly and clearly been removed from the map as part of the action, prior to being returned to the map.

Such writing would not be necessary if the distinction wasn't relevant, and it's actually been an issue with how some of these are written that has been bothering me; why stipulate that the figure is moved off the map before being put back into the map, instead of just wording it along the lines of how Summon is worded? The only relevant distinction I've found so far would be in cases such as this, when it's relevant as to whether you're on the map or not.

And in the interest of consistency, although I think that the ruling might be odd (I still do not see the practical application of the ruling in a meaningful sense; I feel like it would have been better to just say that whenever you are put onto a tile in which you previously was not standing, you'd be entering that tile - but I could be wrong) I must abide by that RAW, even if that means that both Tomble and Tinashi gets to jump into Lava without taking damage or down pits to get out of Line-of-Sight or something.

At least until there's a ruling better than "as a rule of thumb" or "h ard to give a umbrella rule for" shows up.

This just turned Tomble Burrowell and Tinashi the Wanderer from good to crazy good, imo - at least if you're playing against an overlord that likes his traps, like I do.

Sorry to jump in the thread from nowhere...

But just to be sure I understand :

- For Tomble Ok it's removed and comes back from nowhere the next turn...

- But for Tinashi unless I didn't understand ... she gains nothing.. as it's stays on the map and the OL can always play his card.. no?

Tricky one, I would argue that Tinashi doesn't go 'off the map' but does a movement. I think it is bad writing. The reason I believe Tinashi 'stays on the map' is because she ends her heroic feat in the same turn. So let's make some things clear:)

According to the rules (p. 9) 'moving off the map' is spending a movement point on an entrance/ exit tile. The rules further say that 'some quests allow a figures to move off the map'. Therefore, 'moving off the map' seems to be limited to special quest rules.

So I would argue that when abilities instruct you to 'move off the map' in a context other than spending a movement point on an exit/entrance tile, the rules use poor wording to override normal movement rules and do not refer to a figure actually 'moving off the map'.

Why would you think that it's poor wording, when it's so explicit? There's numerous general rules in the rulebook(s) that are superceded by other more specific rules in quests or on cards. When something conflicts with the general rules, the specific rules always take precedent. There's really no reason to think that the one and only way to leave the map would be by spending a movement point on an entrance/exit tile, when there are explicit mention of being taken off the map through other actions, such as by Heroic Feats.

And sloppy wording or not, that's a discussion on RAI, not RAW. The verdict says: " If you are not moving the figure from one space to another, but placing a figure that was not on the map, that figure is not entering that space."

And both Tomble and Tinashi's Heroic Feats state in no uncertain terms that the figures are removed from the map, while there are other, similar abilities that does not explicitly state that the figures are removed from the map (Such as Summon ). Therefore, the distinction is relevant (by RAW; I still do not see why it was necessary to make one, but that's entirely beside the point). Furthermore, on the topic of RAI, it would have been easy to omit the mention of removing the figures from the map, but it wasn't in either case (and other cases), suggesting the intent was for the distinction to be relevant.

I don't think it is explicit at all, the rulebook could just as easily say something like 'in some cases, like special quests rules and abilities'. There a lot of examples of poor writing from FFG, the fact that there are people who come here to get some rules clarification proves that point, so it is possible we are facing such a case here as well.