>>Dungeons of the Empresses of Eternal Pleasures

>>You rescued the Leather Goddess of Phobos

I need to play in your campaigns, Mr Penguin

>There is also the Stealth Suit that nags you about the Pip-Boy light.

And passive-aggressively guilt-trips you when you take it off...

I'm a bit jealous about your voice ability. I cant even do a decent southern accent and I have lived in Texas for 30 years

I can do a decent 'Southern Belle' too. We play a lot of Shadows of Brimstone and I 'voice' the female characters

A monotask droid is a minion and wouldn't get rank 2, it would just get the general skill. Minions don't get ranks of skills. You'd need 6 droids grouped together for a rank of 5, which really is also against the rules as assistance should be limited to only one other entity, maybe another with GM approval.

One minion group is only one entity within the rules. Besides, a techie leading a small working group of droids makes perfect sense even if you don't like the mechanics of it.

A monotask droid is a minion and wouldn't get rank 2, it would just get the general skill. Minions don't get ranks of skills. You'd need 6 droids grouped together for a rank of 5, which really is also against the rules as assistance should be limited to only one other entity, maybe another with GM approval.

One minion group is only one entity within the rules. Besides, a techie leading a small working group of droids makes perfect sense even if you don't like the mechanics of it.

Working on a single item the size of a handgun? No, it does not make any sense. Just like it makes no sense to have a minion group of Stormtroopers all deployed within engaged range of one another in combat.

Too many cooks spoil the soup.

Plus, since we are going to be all literal in the rules, Skilled assistance specifically says...

"...When a character with a higher characteristic or skill rating provides assistance to another character , the dice pool may use one PC's characteristic, and the other PC's skill rating ."

So technically none of this, 'gaming the droid crafting rules is legal at all', since crafted droids are NPCs at best.

Sure it makes sense to have a team working on a handgun since the handgun is several pieces that are then put together for final assembly.

Your second argument is absurd. If you take it literally, then NPCs cannot assist PCs or each other, and that's just stupid.

Sure it makes sense to have a team working on a handgun since the handgun is several pieces that are then put together for final assembly.

Your second argument is absurd. If you take it literally, then NPCs cannot assist PCs or each other, and that's just stupid.

Clearly don't know much about handguns.

That's RAW in regards to PCs and characters, direct quote from the book.

Sure it makes sense to have a team working on a handgun since the handgun is several pieces that are then put together for final assembly.

Your second argument is absurd. If you take it literally, then NPCs cannot assist PCs or each other, and that's just stupid.

Clearly don't know much about handguns.

That's RAW in regards to PCs and characters, direct quote from the book.

RAW or not, it doesn't pass the makes sense rule. NPCs most certainly should be able to provide each other with skilled assistance.

Not according to the rulebook mister 'don't like the mechanics'.

Not according to the rulebook mister 'don't like the mechanics'.

OK, look at Force and Destiny. It's the most recent rulebook, and it just says 'character' rather than 'PC' when talking about skilled assistance. Consider the Droid Brain attachments that are intended to be used with the skilled assistance rules, and look also at the description of the Speaks Binary (Improved) talent in Special Modifications. All cases make it pretty **** clear what is intended.

Find one reference other than the now-obsolete quote you made that supports your position.

They did change that verbiage in F&D, however in regards to piling up minions,

"Generally only one character can provide assistance at a time. However, the GM may decide that certain situations can accommodate more people. In this case, only one assisting character can offer his characteristic or skill rating, and all other participating characters contribute Boost dice to the check."

F&D CRB p. 34

So, no piling up minions to game skilled assistance. Per EoE, per AoR, and per F&D.

Just to further cement no ranks on a minion droid.

Special Modifications p. 83 Table 3-10.

"Adaptive Programming" Add 1 rank to any skill the droid possesses. This cannot be applied to minion droids. "

That's going to be a lot of Boost if you do it that way.

If you allow a lot of droids on one check, which I've already said on some kind of small item, I wouldn't. Per the RAW.

responding to Qeyleb. The first droid doesnt need 6 advantage on chasis it just needs to succeed

even alone YYGGGB vs 1 difficulty its not that hard to get 6 advantage

My point was not to optimize brokenness but to point out how much easier and cheap it is to program droids with max skills then it is for PC's to earn those skills through xp.

You're right about the first droid, I mixed that up. Still needs to be a specialist chassis since minions can't increase skill. But the directives will still take a while -- according to http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#proficiency=2&ability=3&boost=1&difficulty=1 I show a 10.691% chance to get 6 or more advantages with YYGGGB P. (look at 6 advantages and sum all the percentages of 6, 7, 8, 9 etc.) Not horrid, but you still gotta do it a bunch of times or get really lucky. Tried it just now, it took me 9 rolls, haha!

I maintain it's not broken because it's not easier or cheaper to program droids with max skills, even after getting the GM's blessing. It's a fun/silly kind of side hobby in every way -- you spend a lot of time and money (and have fun if that's your thing - and don't get me wrong, I love it) but you don't get much more than you would have on other paths. Plus if that's ALL you're doing, you don't even need a GM or party to play that game.

All that said, I do quite like the mental picture of a swarm of droids building something, kind of like a miniature robotic assembly line. I think I'd rule that they'd all have to take the Unusual Size effect in order to not get in the way when building smaller things. But only if house-ruled to allow them to assist that way in the first place.

Azrael Macool, I love your schematics template ideas.

Maelora, those varied droid personalities are the best thing I've read all week.

One additional point: If it were this easy to mass produce droids with maxed out skills, then why isnt Industrial Automaton putting out astromechs with five ranks in every single skill?

A dangerous path it is indeed...

That said, to counter the Eternal dice-roll-for-the-uber-mega-god-like-whatsoever-item-session, first of all i reduced "shematics" to one per template, so something that extrem hard to produce will NEVER become an easy-sneezy product.

second, if the constructer rolls to often just to gather boosts for the next roll (because there was a hyperspace jumpe of enought-time-to-do-it serveral-times) I´ll let something interupt him.

I really like the idea of a mechanic that is building, modding and constructing nearly on everything... narrativly.

I don´t like the idea of an player that is only doing it for the min/max output and will imidiatly stop such an attemp...

The fix is written in the book. I think a lot of people look to the rules like an MMO, "how much DPS can I stack with this?!?" without even bothering to read the stuff about the GM and PC having a conversation about what the PC wants to make and the templates they want to access as to whether the GM even allows it.

I know when I would have that conversation and the answer from a PC is to create a bunch of droids to rule lawyer the crafting so I can create a wall of auto-win items, my answer is sorry, no. We aren't here to break the game, we are here to make characters and you aren't doing that.

The 'fix' is right there in the rules.

There are players out there, more than a few -- I think we've all been in games with them -- who really expect the GM to allow whatever the text of the game indicates is possible, and that any limits imposed on that are "unfair".

Thing is, they're not entirely wrong, in the following way: I've also seen "the GM can always make a ruling to fix it" used way too liberally as an excuse for poorly-designed elements in various systems -- as a fig leaf to cover places where the system came apart, or where interactions of different parts of the system were clearly never playtested.

When "the GM is in charge" is used account for the inherent limits of modelling a "reality" with dice and charts and tables... that's good.

When "the GM is in charge" is used as a fig leaf for just plain bad game design... that's bad.

One additional point: If it were this easy to mass produce droids with maxed out skills, then why isnt Industrial Automaton putting out astromechs with five ranks in every single skill?

This is my main point why does the R7 have 3 in astrogate skill ranks instead of 5 if its only 4 advantage away. The answer I think is game balance. A 11,000 credit purchase should make your astrogating and mechanics easier, but shouldn't replace a PC mechanic or astrogater.

And yeah a Nemesis elimination chasis and advanced combat chasis is awesome with combat skill ranks base of 4, my guess is the designers loved HK-50 as much as the rest of us. But you make a highly illegal murder bot and you have to expect something bad is going to happen.

I don't think anyone here is disputing that you can break the game like that, or that the issue isn't game balance. The fulcrum, however is that it's up to the GM maintain that balance by saying "No" and the players to back off from concepts that blatantly break the system.

Unless the campaign consists of people sitting in a room making robots all session long. If that's fun for the group, go for it.

So, one quick aside, I didn't think you could use any of the speak binary talents when you have them assist as they are not making a check. Granted that is pretty much just the matter a few blue dice but something I am curious about.

I'm not sure ..... I'm not sure this is an example of a broken system. I see that term used a lot in this thread but no matter how many times I re-read the original post the amount of time and money expended to get to the point that things are 'broken' is ...... quite large. All rolls are assumed to be at 0 diff (correct me if I"m wrong) so there have been a slew of 'off screen' rolls to get rid of the purple dice. It just seems like, in the end, you haven't really broken anything just given yourself the max die pool. I'm also not convinced that it is any 'easier' as implied than spending the xp. According to my research you can get to 7 yellow and 4 boost (5 if you use your special race) with talents and cybernetics. That is before tools, helpers, shop or anything else. Just not seeing what using droids has over doing it yourself or why it 'brakes' the system. So far the only thing I would consider broken about crafting is going in to gambler.

Well the droid is making the check Inventor just says when constructing new items or modying existing attachments, I think technically both the droid and the drall are constructing it together. So they apply and speaks binary says the character grants boost per rank to any task he directts the npc droid to perform. Thus my reading is that they would stack granting 4 boost to the combined check if the droid is making the main check and the drall is offering skilled assistance in constructing the item.

Now a GM could certainly rule that inventor doesn't work when you are merely assisting the construction but that certainly makes Scientist a very silly talent tree.

My guess is in the star wars universe really big stuff is all made by using droids and is in fact impossible or extremely time consuming to do it by hand, we'll see when vehicle crafting comes out.

The main bonus is using money to save 240 xp in mechanics/computers/astrogate and medicine, by keeping your skill at 2 with 7 int you are going to pass most checks and still have access to droids for the really hard stuff.

The book basically created a power creep that was not previously available to the players and that's why I am putting it out there and a suggested way of solving a possible problem. Namely first increase in droid skill 2 advantage second increase in skill 3 advantage third increase in skill 4 advantage. Is 12 advantage possible sure but not likely, which is why R7's are released with mutiple 3's skills and no 5's

The armor power creep really wasn't too bad as armor is like cotton candy compared to weapons in star wars.

The weapon power creep really is only annoying with concussive on a non restricted ranged weapon.

The idea that I most liked in this thread was the idea of restricting what templates people can get using education as a gateway and then making players find, buy, or reverse engineer the templates. I think that adds a fun level to the game and certainly gives the technician motivation to adventure.

Some groups literally do want to play merchants and crafters and charlatans and information brokers. Not every group is going to get into combat every session and not all social encounters have to be boring. Even in a hefty combat campaign you can still have days to a week depending on your hyperspace drive to get somewhere and you can give the crafty people time to build, it doesn't have to take a lot of game time. But you guys make it seem like oh my god 32 hours The other party members are going to be doing stuff and our crafter is going to be doing nothing. That's just a sign of poor gming and not giving everyone a chance to shine. Maybe not everyone wants to play an R2D2 type, but its a valid choice and still very star wars to do so.

By that logic you could line up 5 PCs with 4 ranks of Inventor and have 20 Boost dice. Nope, total rule lawyering.

By that logic you could line up 5 PCs with 4 ranks of Inventor and have 20 Boost dice. Nope, total rule lawyering.

My guess is this is how actual progress is made in the scientific community in star wars terms. You get a lot of scientists working together each with top ranks in their field of study working collaboratively to design the next R7 unit the next A wing etc. While I am not sure you could make a great game with 5 scientists characters if you're group really wanted to try my guess is it would feel like macguvyer in space or starfleet corps of engineers.

Do you think 1 or even two people designed the plans for the death star or built it? No Probably had 100's of top scientists working on different parts of the project from the super laser to core, divided the project into tons of parts and still had teams working together to solve just one thing. You know kind of like how actual engineers work on projects today.

A project of that scope and magnittude would probably take a lead engineer and 10 assistants all stacking their boost dice and inventor ranks to get the gigantic numbers needed to just get the tractor beam alone working properly. Nevermind the hundreds or thousands of droids and contractors that would need to be directed properly to build it.

In your universe 2 people designed and built the deathstar themselves

and that's why I am putting it out there and a suggested way of solving a possible problem.

It's a solution in search of a problem. There are already a series of checks and balances in place to make sure your incredibly specific scenario (seriously, this isn't going to come up unless an asshat player going out of their way to make it happen) doesn't come to pass.

* Money

* Time

* Sitting there bored while the other players do Cool Things

* and the ever popular "The GM says"

(Subtitle: WWE Superstar Daniel Bryan going No! No! No!)

Every game system I have ever played in over the last 25 years can be broken through clever application of the rules. Every . You want easily exploitable? Try the HERO system - that engine can be broken six ways from Sunday, occasionally by accident. FFG is a piker in comparison, with it's autofire and this Robot Making robot.

It is up to the GM to not allow it. In EVERY instance. FFG is no different.

By that logic you could line up 5 PCs with 4 ranks of Inventor and have 20 Boost dice. Nope, total rule lawyering.

My guess is this is how actual progress is made in the scientific community in star wars terms. You get a lot of scientists working together each with top ranks in their field of study working collaboratively to design the next R7 unit the next A wing etc. While I am not sure you could make a great game with 5 scientists characters if you're group really wanted to try my guess is it would feel like macguvyer in space or starfleet corps of engineers.

Do you think 1 or even two people designed the plans for the death star or built it? No Probably had 100's of top scientists working on different parts of the project from the super laser to core, divided the project into tons of parts and still had teams working together to solve just one thing. You know kind of like how actual engineers work on projects today.

A project of that scope and magnittude would probably take a lead engineer and 10 assistants all stacking their boost dice and inventor ranks to get the gigantic numbers needed to just get the tractor beam alone working properly. Nevermind the hundreds or thousands of droids and contractors that would need to be directed properly to build it.

In your universe 2 people designed and built the deathstar themselves

That's a nice rant but we aren't talking reality. We are talking RPG game mechanics and you're gaming the rules, period. 5 paragraph excuses are still that, excuses. If a rule doesn't specifically say you can do something you're making stuff up. Need proof? Look at Improved Speaks Binary where it spefically addresses Assist now applies to that Talent, by your rule lawyering it already should've, but clearly it didn't as fas as the Devs were concerned since they made an improved version of the Talent to address it.

By that logic you could line up 5 PCs with 4 ranks of Inventor and have 20 Boost dice. Nope, total rule lawyering.

My guess is this is how actual progress is made in the scientific community in star wars terms. You get a lot of scientists working together each with top ranks in their field of study working collaboratively to design the next R7 unit the next A wing etc. While I am not sure you could make a great game with 5 scientists characters if you're group really wanted to try my guess is it would feel like macguvyer in space or starfleet corps of engineers.

Do you think 1 or even two people designed the plans for the death star or built it? No Probably had 100's of top scientists working on different parts of the project from the super laser to core, divided the project into tons of parts and still had teams working together to solve just one thing. You know kind of like how actual engineers work on projects today.

A project of that scope and magnittude would probably take a lead engineer and 10 assistants all stacking their boost dice and inventor ranks to get the gigantic numbers needed to just get the tractor beam alone working properly. Nevermind the hundreds or thousands of droids and contractors that would need to be directed properly to build it.

In your universe 2 people designed and built the deathstar themselves

That's a nice rant but we aren't talking reality. We are talking RPG game mechanics and you're gaming the rules, period. 5 paragraph excuses are still that, excuses. If a rule doesn't specifically say you can do something you're making stuff up. Need proof? Look at Improved Speaks Binary where it spefically addresses Assist now applies to that Talent, by your rule lawyering it already should've, but clearly it didn't as fas as the Devs were concerned since they made an improved version of the Talent to address it.

On the other hand, that implies whether or not it worked that way before the improved version was... not addressed either way in RAW?