I've recently been experimenting with Inside turns and forced inside turns. Is anyone else making use of these, especially when ramming to do an IT with Large and Medium ships?

I acknowledge their existance. I even use them occasionally...

... But I find them to be one of those "Hey, I'm actually do it." things... Rather than actually going out of my way to try...

Kind of how I was with the Ackbar Slash at first...

That was "Hey look, Its actually working" and has evolved into me actively looking for opportunities.

Hmm...

Really, I don't see them as significantly different from any other maneuver--just another option out there. Which isn't to say they're not super useful when the time comes--more that I see it as handicapping yourself if you aren't comfortable with using them. You're just denying yourself almost half of your maneuvering options.

I think it was at my first tournament that I figured out the AF2's inside turn with a nav dial,

 [```````````]
 [ {=====}=< ]
 [___________]
<==        , 
   `--__ ,`
        `   

and shortly after that that I realized you could do it with a small ship even more easily; so at this point I'm just as comfortable inside the template as outside. In fact, I never really ran into anybody who wasn't, until I played outside of my local area.

Kind of funny how that works. Different groups picking up and socializing different sets of knowledge, I guess. There are plenty of other things we did wrong for a long time too.

I do think there is some subtlety to using overlaps to get those tight, template-overlapping turns for large ships, though. That's where the skill is, IMO. Pulling off rams to stay in position while keeping your speed up can be a really handy tool to have in your pocket when the time comes... but it's pretty easy to botch it, too.

So in a teaching game last night, an inside turn would have saved an Ackbar Assault Frigate from Goin off the board. I used it as a point to show the new player that Nav commands are extremely useful on all ships. Sadly he had a concentrate fire command and so that Assault Frigate went speed 3 off the board.

As for finding them useful. . . . They are TREMENDOUSLY useful. First the are a shorter turn so you can actually maintain speed but stay out of range in you have the right positioning (usually for small ships only).

Next they change placement compared to the same turn in the other side. This helps you readjust and get the proper positioning.

I don't know the amount of times where an inside turn has proven to be the best play, but I do know that in the Tacoma Regionals, it assisted me getting into a spot that ArmadaJim had thought he had blocked off.

Try them out. They can change a game in the right circumstances

I think that i'm mainly seeing it as an important tool in a meta that is so obsessed with getting to or avoiding close range combat. The inside turn allows you to range game an opponent who is looking to force you into black dice, or into a forward-facing ram.

I think that i'm mainly seeing it as an important tool in a meta that is so obsessed with getting to or avoiding close range combat. The inside turn allows you to range game an opponent who is looking to force you into black dice, or into a forward-facing ram.

It's an important tool in any meta in which positioning and precision navigation are important. Which is to say, in pretty much every meta that's refined beyond "hurr line up and roll some dice".

The ability to dynamically lengthen or shorten your move distance as needed without a nav command, to sideslip your movement to one side or the other, to alter your final orientation and bearing with respect to a stationary point on the table--all super important navigational capabilities.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that this is one of the biggest unforeseen constraints leading to the VSD's weakness: the inability to do that ever (barring ramming shenanigans), even with a dial, is a pretty big deal.

What the hell is an inside turn? Can someone post a pic?

Normally, ships make "outside" turns, where they end up on the outside of their maneuver tool after executing a maneuver. For example, if your tool is on the left, and you turn left, your ship position will be on the outside of the turn angle, probably with the ship rear hanging off into space like you just did a big drift.

An inside turn is where the ship stays on the inside. For example, if a CR90 makes a turn at least one click ahead of the final speed notch, it can make that same left hand turn but with ithe maneuver tool on the right. This means you've shortened the overall distance your ship moved relative to it's start by almost a full base length. But you've still turned left.

A forced Inside turn is where you execute a maneuver that forces your ship to overlap the maneuver tool, which can let a ship execute a maneuver it normally wouldn't be allowed to due to its size, or that the game normally wouldn't allow under any other circumstances.

An example: Normally, if you tried to make a hard inside turn with an ISD, the ISD would overlap its own tool and the tool would have to be adjusted at the end further forward to avoid overlapping. But if that move would end with a legal position, and that legal position would overlap another ship, the ISD will be forced back to it's last legal position even if that would overlap the maneuver tool. So if you set up there you can prepare a ram and place your ship in a position it normally couldn't legally take. for Large ships in particular, this can hold your ship back by several centimeters from black die range, bombers, and special abilities. It can also drastically change the arc of fire towards a direction your opponent isn't prepared for.

This can be really good for a few things, such as:

• Reorienting a ship to position a target into a preferred arc it normally couldn't achieve
• Avoid running off the board
• Preventing an enemy ship from flanking you
• Setting up a juke to the side where an opponent isn't able to follow
• Positioning a ship back from a dangerous position but still facing the correct direction

What the hell is an inside turn? Can someone post a pic?

Here's a quick and dirty one for you....

The Maneuver tool has been clicked Once at Speed 1, and Once at Speed 2. Both times to the right.

This shows what happens when you place the tool on the Right... (The underneath one), which would be a conventional, OUTSIDE turn (your ship is on the outside of the curve the entire time).

The Ship on top, shows what would happen if you placed the Right Turning Tool on the LEFT side of the Ship. As long as the Ship in its final position does NOT overlap the Tool, then its a Legal INSIDE turn.

Note that it DOES effect the final position of the ship.

Of course note that overlapping the tool is generally illegal except for certain situations.

However the beauty of the game is that small ships can do it with no danger of overlapping.

Even a Medium Ship - An AFMK-II - can do it with a Nav Command Dial, taking its "extra" Nav at the First Click, and no other clicks.

The only situation in which you are allowed to be overlapping the tool, is during an overlap when you are forced back along the tool to find placement. You can never intend to overlap the tool.

Even a Medium Ship - An AFMK-II - can do it with a Nav Command Dial, taking its "extra" Nav at the First Click, and no other clicks.

The only situation in which you are allowed to be overlapping the tool, is during an overlap when you are forced back along the tool to find placement. You can never intend to overlap the tool.

The ISD can also do an inside turn under the same circumstances as the Assault Frigate.

Even a Medium Ship - An AFMK-II - can do it with a Nav Command Dial, taking its "extra" Nav at the First Click, and no other clicks.

The only situation in which you are allowed to be overlapping the tool, is during an overlap when you are forced back along the tool to find placement. You can never intend to overlap the tool.

the Hell I can't.

Even a Medium Ship - An AFMK-II - can do it with a Nav Command Dial, taking its "extra" Nav at the First Click, and no other clicks.

The only situation in which you are allowed to be overlapping the tool, is during an overlap when you are forced back along the tool to find placement. You can never intend to overlap the tool.

the Hell I can't.

Well the o lys way to do it is to intend to ram to cause you to overlap for a better position next turn

Here's an example using Vassal to demonstrate. I've slightly repositoned each to make the base borders more visible. All ships are going speed 3. The lower line is Distance 3 from the board edge, the upper is Distance 5.

Ship 1 (far left): A simple outside turn, starting and ending with the tool on the right of a right-and turn. The ship stays on the outside of the curve.

Ship 2, (second from left): A sinple inside turn. Because of the size of the base, the ship overlaps the tool and cannot be placed

Ship 3 (3rd from left): A legal inside turn. The ship turned at speed 1 and left the other 2 joints straight. Notice how it's a few centimeters back from the Ship 1 end position.

Ship 4 (furthest right): A forced inside turn. This ship would have overlapped the Raider, but instead has been forced back to the last legal position. It is drastically far back from the outside turn, and is close enough to overlap its own starting position despite having made a 45 degree turn. And that's at speed 3 ending on speed 2. i could have done it at speed 2 ending at 1.

the Hell I can't.

Disingeneous wording on my part.

My statement is that you cannot plan or plot an illegal maneuver. Its illegal.

You can end up in that position, for sure, due to a ram. But remove all other ships from the equation, and you cannot place the maneuver tool in such a position as to intend to overlap the tool.

Because the rules tell you, straight away, to reset the ships position, pick up the tool, notch it on the other side, and then complete your maneuver.

\

BUT, for the most part. I'm walking away. This, and other threads, are starting to edge far too hostile.

the Hell I can't.

Disingeneous wording on my part.

My statement is that you cannot plan or plot an illegal maneuver. Its illegal.

You can end up in that position, for sure, due to a ram. But remove all other ships from the equation, and you cannot place the maneuver tool in such a position as to intend to overlap the tool.

Because the rules tell you, straight away, to reset the ships position, pick up the tool, notch it on the other side, and then complete your maneuver.

\

BUT, for the most part. I'm walking away. This, and other threads, are starting to edge far too hostile.

*raises hand* my fault again

Yeah I've been already considering most of these possibilities in games already. It's nice to have the formal jargon now b

Yeah I've been already considering most of these possibilities in games already. It's nice to have the formal jargon now b

Yup. Just follow the rules for movement. End on the Side you start on and dont overlap the tool, you will be fine!

the Hell I can't.

Disingeneous wording on my part.

My statement is that you cannot plan or plot an illegal maneuver. Its illegal.

You can end up in that position, for sure, due to a ram. But remove all other ships from the equation, and you cannot place the maneuver tool in such a position as to intend to overlap the tool.

Because the rules tell you, straight away, to reset the ships position, pick up the tool, notch it on the other side, and then complete your maneuver.

\

BUT, for the most part. I'm walking away. This, and other threads, are starting to edge far too hostile.

Sorry, I was joking. Somehow it come across as much more aggressive than intended, I blame being very tired and stressed when I wrote it.

I absolutely can plot an "illegal maneuver" as long as I get to that maneuver using entirely legal means, as seen above. Normally, illegal maneuvers and game abilities would come through upgrades, the difference is that this one is coming through careful positioning and an understanding of how the rules interact.

The power slide is real. Take a nav on a Speed 3 ISD, dropon one Yaw into speed one and you can Mario kart slide a long bloody way, without going froward to much, you save about 1.5cm of drift towards the enemy, which is the difference between dead.

The greatest boon of the inside turns is that the pre measure can give you near 100% information if you see in or out of an arc. If a measurement tool cannot reach inside the ruler along the inside then you can't be hit. Usual one tool rule applies but using sight/finger gives you precicse measurements regarding distance because you don't have to add an invisible base to the outside of manoeuvre tool.

Once again, an inside turn on an Assault Frigate would of saved it from the board edge if it had 2 navigation set. He second would of angled it back on the board just barely.