I saw an interview with some FFG people once where they were saying that (unlike GW) they did market research and discovered that the custom dice and special templates and such are actually far more popular than Tahoe measures and regular dice with tables. People like having everything needed to play included.

Nerd ocd.

Them or me?

Every one of us, never met a fellow nerd without it in some form.

And the point I'm trying to make is that until recently people who would otherwise enjoy warGAMES have been unable to enter the hobby because there has been this second, additional hobby unavoidably attached to it for more than a generation.

I would consider them inextricably linked, rather than simply stapled together.

I am curious, where are you located? Whenever these sorts of discussions come up I always wonder to what extent the differences are cultural, given how very different the gaming landscape is between England and the USA.

I'm Australian

To be honest, I think we agree more than we disagree. Not everyone hates painting and modelling and not everyone loves it either, I think we only disagree about the proportions.

The painting and modeling are the reasons I still like 40k even after the rules and the business model went down the toilet. For the sake of the game, it is far easier to get people I know to buy in when the game is already painted. I do enjoy seeing people's custom jobs, and that's another thing that makes these games great. Paint or not, either way it looks great.

When I played 40k it was unthinkable to play at an event with unpainted minis. It many cases, even against the rules. These days, I can't remember the last time I saw two painted armies on a table. That even includes smaller scale games like Infinity.

As to custom dice, it's all about context. If the symbols on the dice are easy to understand, like in the FFG Star Wars games, no problem. Hell, I actually prefer it. But take a game like Soda Pop's Ninja Allstars. 6 sided dice with unintelligible symbols that require a chart to decode them. Sure, you learn them but it's not inviting or intuitive.

As long as custom dice are consistent and instantly understandable, I think they make a game feel more cohesive. And on the off chance I want more dice, 6 bucks is well within my impulse range. One last thing, I'd rather spend that and roll 3-4 custom dice than a bucket full of D6s into a box lid and spend a few minutes picking out the 4+s.

a very FFG feel to it that not everyone likes. The special movement tool, the special dice, the 'top heavy' approach to the rules...

I saw an interview with some FFG people once where they were saying that (unlike GW) they did market research and discovered that the custom dice and special templates and such are actually far more popular than Tahoe measures and regular dice with tables. People like having everything needed to play included.

Sure, but they aren't marketing to the wargamer crowd. They're marketing to the board gaming/card gaming crowd.

More like they're marketing to a crowd that wanted wargaming more accessible.

Nah, special dice and movement tools makes a game LESS accessible. I can get D6s from anywhere, and tape-measures are like $2 at the hardware store. X Wing templates or Armada maneuver tools, and the relevant dice are much harder to source.FFG markets to a crowd of people who aren't interested in the traditional wargaming staples: Making terrain, assembling, painting and converting models, games where 90 to 120 minutes is the 'standard' play time, etc. They market to a crowd of people who want everything to come in the box, with no extra effort required, where all the input from the player is in the list building and playing of the game.And I'm not passing judgement here, I don't think one way or the other is a better way to play games. I happen to prefer a more traditional wargaming approach, but I have no problem with people who aren't interested in that. But it's important to note that FFG are NOT marketing towards people who want to play Wargames. They are marketing to people who like board games and card games, who might want to give a miniatures game a go.There's a significant gap between people who play card/board games and people who play wargames. And X Wing and to a lesser extent Armada cater to the former crowd rather than the latter. To cater to a wargaming crowd, FFG would be selling unpainted and unassembled kits, have rulebooks instead of cards, actively encourage a range of points sizes and scenarios, use regular D6s and tapemeasures, while selling their own custom D6s and tapemeasures as well, etc. In terms of population demographics we're almost identical, but I don't

More like they're marketing to a crowd that wanted wargaming more accessible.

Nah, special dice and movement tools makes a game LESS accessible. I can get D6s from anywhere, and tape-measures are like $2 at the hardware store. X Wing templates or Armada maneuver tools, and the relevant dice are much harder to source.

FFG markets to a crowd of people who aren't interested in the traditional wargaming staples: Making terrain, assembling, painting and converting models, games where 90 to 120 minutes is the 'standard' play time, etc. They market to a crowd of people who want everything to come in the box, with no extra effort required, where all the input from the player is in the list building and playing of the game.

I think you're both saying the same thing here.

So where are these enormous chunks? Why are most armies unpainted

Well hold on, if you're going to insist that most armies are unpainted (and we're not just talking about 40K, or armies that are temporarily unpainted, but armies that remain unpainted in the larger wargaming community for a protracted period of time) then you'd better start by backing it up. In my experience the vast majority of wargamers enjoy painting and enjoy putting together models and converting them so that their force, and sometimes every model in it, is entirely unique to them. One needs only look at the volume of painting blogs on a site like dakka-dakka to see the popularity. There are nearly twice as many posts in the painting and modelling section of dakkadakka alone , than there are on the entire X Wing forum. Don't forget to factor in sites like Lead Adventure, Warseer, WWPD, TMP etc. Heaps and heaps and heaps of people actually enjoy modelling and painting.

Sure, there ARE hobbiests who are mostly in it for the painting. And there are certainly some who gain equal enjoyment from both the modeling and the game play. But anecdotal evidence over the years suggest that they are quite the minority, and it can't be argued that the modelling aspects of wargaming have kept large swathes of potential customers out of the hobby.

Which is sort of what I've been trying to get at this whole time. People who love wargames (usually) also love painting and modelling and making terrain and doing all the other wargame stuff like creating back-story for your models, playing campaigns and scenarios, playing a range of point sizes, etc. People who aren't interested in those things, won't like wargames. But they might still like a miniatures game, and that's where X Wing comes in with no army lists or rule books, no glue or paints involved, no variation in army sizes or scenarios, it's just pure competition, much like a card-game. I'm sure a lot of wargamers will enjoy X Wing but only for a tiny handful of them will it become their favourite game that they play exclusively.

I am, oddly the reverse of all this. I love the hobbying part first and foremost, and only play a game with my miniatures so that I feel like they have a life AFTER I've finished the modeling part of the experience.

I prefer the gaming more to the painting. I have 2 unpainted infinity armies I play with.

So where are these enormous chunks? Why are most armies unpainted

Well hold on, if you're going to insist that most armies are unpainted (and we're not just talking about 40K, or armies that are temporarily unpainted, but armies that remain unpainted in the larger wargaming community for a protracted period of time) then you'd better start by backing it up. In my experience the vast majority of wargamers enjoy painting and enjoy putting together models and converting them so that their force, and sometimes every model in it, is entirely unique to them. One needs only look at the volume of painting blogs on a site like dakka-dakka to see the popularity. There are nearly twice as many posts in the painting and modelling section of dakkadakka alone , than there are on the entire X Wing forum. Don't forget to factor in sites like Lead Adventure, Warseer, WWPD, TMP etc. Heaps and heaps and heaps of people actually enjoy modelling and painting.

Sure, there ARE hobbiests who are mostly in it for the painting. And there are certainly some who gain equal enjoyment from both the modeling and the game play. But anecdotal evidence over the years suggest that they are quite the minority, and it can't be argued that the modelling aspects of wargaming have kept large swathes of potential customers out of the hobby.

In my experience most gamers enjoy sitting down and getting in a good painting session. Even for X Wing there is a dedicated group of people who enjoy painting their ships. Having to build and paint toy soldiers is part of the attraction of wargaming, and people who are put off by it... well, that hobby isn't really FOR them, is it? It's like loving the idea of snowboarding, but hating the snow, or loving golf but hating swinging clubs and hitting golf balls. If you don't like a key component of the hobby, then the hobby probably isn't for you. Hence the rise of these in-between games like X Wing and Imperial Assault.

But if a company like Gripping Beast or Wargames Foundry decided to stop producing metal or multi-part plastics, and instead only sold pre-painted pre-assembled models they would go out of business in a heartbeat . The people who are interested in buying those models are NOT the people who want to buy pre-painted models.

Which is sort of what I've been trying to get at this whole time. People who love wargames (usually) also love painting and modelling and making terrain and doing all the other wargame stuff like creating back-story for your models, playing campaigns and scenarios, playing a range of point sizes, etc. People who aren't interested in those things, won't like wargames. But they might still like a miniatures game, and that's where X Wing comes in with no army lists or rule books, no glue or paints involved, no variation in army sizes or scenarios, it's just pure competition, much like a card-game. I'm sure a lot of wargamers will enjoy X Wing but only for a tiny handful of them will it become their favourite game that they play exclusively.

Seems a bit unfair (for lack of a better word), nor does it seem to make sense to say if one isn't interested in painting then the wargaming Hobbie isn't for them. Wargaming is wargaming and painting is painting. I shouldn't have to enjoy one to enjoy the other.

I prefer the gaming more to the painting. I have 2 unpainted infinity armies I play with.

Blasphemy!

DEM MINIS!!11

I still the T-65 sits on shelves crying itself to sleep, except in the hands of those who love to field it anyway.

... and the guys like us that are smart enough to know to stay away from Ace-Wing where most ships are reduced to being macho-meanies and thrill killers.

So guys who play macho meanies are dumb?

YES!!!

Just take a second and let that sink in there Joe.

Hey how about you go think about your own postings here of late.

Yeah who on earth would believe a corporation could take take steps against an economic situation? That's just retarded. Yeah.

Or were you perhaps talking about all those posts where I slam PWT haters and the constant complainers? Yes because we were all having loads of fun listening to everyone ***** about X-Wing.

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

I'd give this two likes but the forums won't let me.

... now stop griping about a 40k version of X-Wing and be happy!

Naturally, these different types of thrills lend themselves to all sorts of different games. Just among the offerings from Fantasy Flight Games, you have the capital ship battles of Star Wars™: Armada , the mission-focused ground combats of Imperial Assault , the character-driven storytelling enabled by three different roleplaying games, and the squad-based dogfights of X-Wing™ . You can even recreate the entire Galactic Civil War with Star Wars™: Rebellion . These games provide a wealth of different play experiences from which you can choose, each of which focuses on a different sort of Star Wars thrill.

Nice and sparkling clear... yet?

Not sure I understand this thread has there been a clamouring for a tabletop troops based Game, 40k X wing or do we want unpainted plastic ships from FFG in GW quality?

Do we not already have something in this vein( on a smaller scale) with Imperial Assault?

... now stop griping about a 40k version of X-Wing and be happy!

Naturally, these different types of thrills lend themselves to all sorts of different games. Just among the offerings from Fantasy Flight Games, you have the capital ship battles of Star Wars™: Armada , the mission-focused ground combats of Imperial Assault , the character-driven storytelling enabled by three different roleplaying games, and the squad-based dogfights of X-Wing™ . You can even recreate the entire Galactic Civil War with Star Wars™: Rebellion . These games provide a wealth of different play experiences from which you can choose, each of which focuses on a different sort of Star Wars thrill.

Nice and sparkling clear... yet?

Not sure I understand this thread has there been a clamouring for a tabletop troops based Game, 40k X wing or do we want unpainted plastic ships from FFG in GW quality?

Do we not already have something in this vein( on a smaller scale) with Imperial Assault?

The smaller scale is also the problem.

To butcher the terms, Imperial Assault is a Skirmish game... Small amounts of figures on each side.

What the "40k" system proposes is a Massed Battle game... With potentially Tens, if not Hundreds, of models each side, and appropriate scaling from the lowest of soldier to the largest of war machines...

So, I mean, technically yes, it is in the vein by the fact that they are both ground games..

... But it is like saying Armada and X-Wing are redundant as they are both Space games and there's no room for both.

I would LOVE a proper Star Wars wargame in 28mm. Something where you could have hundreds of models per side, with tanks and AT-ATs and airspeeders, rules for morale and suppression and cover and flanking fire, that would be awesome.

These days, I can't remember the last time I saw two painted armies on a table. That even includes smaller scale games like Infinity.

Amusingly, one of the infinity players at my local store recently was complaining about how many x-wing players were doing repaints of their ships, but none of the infinity players (which included some of the same people) were getting their infinity forces painted.

[Not sure I understand this thread has there been a clamouring for a tabletop troops based Game, 40k X wing or do we want unpainted plastic ships from FFG in GW quality?Do we not already have something in this vein( on a smaller scale) with Imperial Assault?

Yes. Two or three times a year the topic of FFG doing Star Wars mass battles game comes up and the threads always get lots of posts, both for and against. Generally the desire is for a ground game in the same scale as x-wing so the models would be cross compatible.

As for this thread specifically. It is difficult to tell the original intent because JBR7 tends to create threads by just ejaculating words into the computer without any explanation (or coherent sentance structure), but after reading the thread I am pretty sure the point he was failing to make was

"you guys know how a bunch of us keep clamouring for a SW mass battles ground game? Well this quote from the new article indicates that it isn't going to happen because FFG seems to think they have Star Wars covered. So we should probably stop speculating about something that is never going to happen and concentrate on the new toys that we ARE getting."

At least, I THINK that was his point.

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

I am actually one of the many happy good guys here and it is not my (our) fault that people like to come on and make post which the rest of us can clearly see as indicative of a negative-fringe element in our community.

I (we) ain't responsible for your misery and I (we) ain't scared of you either.

i will laugh at you of course because miserable gamers on a forum complaining and writing crazy conspiracy topics is ... well downs right he-lar-Eee-uses... and snarky old englishmen are kinda funny too.

Blah... welcome to IGNORE-Land.

... now stop griping about a 40k version of X-Wing and be happy!

Naturally, these different types of thrills lend themselves to all sorts of different games. Just among the offerings from Fantasy Flight Games, you have the capital ship battles of Star Wars™: Armada , the mission-focused ground combats of Imperial Assault , the character-driven storytelling enabled by three different roleplaying games, and the squad-based dogfights of X-Wing™ . You can even recreate the entire Galactic Civil War with Star Wars™: Rebellion . These games provide a wealth of different play experiences from which you can choose, each of which focuses on a different sort of Star Wars thrill.

Nice and sparkling clear... yet?

Not sure I understand this thread has there been a clamouring for a tabletop troops based Game, 40k X wing or do we want unpainted plastic ships from FFG in GW quality?

Do we not already have something in this vein( on a smaller scale) with Imperial Assault?

Basically I was highlighting this recent FFG guest article because it summed up how well FFG has the myraid of STAR WARS gaming possibilities covered now. There was a little bit of a regulare noise for FFG to make a full on X-WING 40K styled game in the first two years of X-WING and the topic pops up once in a while still.

The reason for my topic was just to smile and thank FFG for being awesome and to kindly in my own view bring the whole subject to rest.

I do like reading Crab's topics about still wanting an X-EPIC-40K styled game still...

I would LOVE a proper Star Wars wargame in 28mm. Something where you could have hundreds of models per side, with tanks and AT-ATs and airspeeders, rules for morale and suppression and cover and flanking fire, that would be awesome.

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

User alert: your ignore list is incomplete.

Yeah... It needs an updating every once in a while dunnit Brah?

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

User alert: your ignore list is incomplete.

Yeah... It needs an updating every once in a while dunnit Brah?

But here comes Joe with his happy go lucky baby talking silly accent, flaming people everyday and we all cheer him on because he has cute spaceship emoticons. Lousy post eh Joe? Better flame em with your spaceships! Anyone who disagrees had better be prepared to be labelled a dumb meanie.

Hey just because we're hiding our intent behind a cheesy attitude doesn't change that it's bad.

User alert: your ignore list is incomplete.

Yeah... It needs an updating every once in a while dunnit Brah?

You're a bad poster too, bro.

I am inclined to post a little tussle... once in a while.

Why don't we think there'll be a planetside element for X-Wing?

Something along the lines of GW Epic?

Or is this thread about a wanting a new game with 40k-style mechanics?

What exactly is this thread about?

[post= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Miniatures] [/post]