I have small question and that is if only the Second Founding Chapters from the Dark Angels are part of the Unforgiven or if all those bearing the geneseed of the Lion are counted as Unforgiven?

The reason for my question is this part on the Lexicanum that has confused me.

The Unforgiven refers collectively to the Dark Angels Space Marine Chapter and their Second Founding successor chapters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Unforgiven

I'll be happy if someone with insight could clear this up for me.

OK, the dark angles and their successors consider themselves 'unforgiven' as long as a single fallen lives. Do not confuse the dark angels with the fallen. The dark angels and the chapters their legion split up into post heresy are all unforgiven.

The dark angel 'curse' is purely a guilt issue the dark Angels choose to feel. It is not a physical, genetic issue like the blood abgels curse of sanguinius or the wolfen issue the space wolves have. So if a chapter we're founded later using the remarkably stable and apparently mutation free dark angel gene seed it may not be told the true history of the heresy and the fallen. It may well be the Inquisition knows the dark angels have an unique and overriding obsession with the fallen that may at times interfere with their duties to the imperium and choose not to inform any new founding chapters using dark angel gene seed that bit.

Again, recall that neither the emperor, the imperium, the lords of terra, the Inquisition, etc has declared.the dark angels or their second founding chapters guiltynir unforgiven. They have adopted that mantle purely for themselves and the vast majority of the imoerium, and indeed most rank and file chapter members inducted in ensuing millennia, know very little re the history of the original chapter or the origin of the unforgiven issue.

Disciples of Caliban founded in late M37 and they are definitely part of the Unforgiven.

well the later founding chapters can be unforgiven I guess. I would not put it past the impetium to make a few chapters using lion el'johnson's geneseed and not tell them the whole story just to cut down on them putting the hunt for the fallen ahead if the imperium, though.

As to the fallen in DW, just imnagibe the fun of putting in a black shield npc who a DA pc suspects is one....that's for particularly evil GMs only, of course.

Disciples of Caliban founded in late M37 and they are definitely part of the Unforgiven.

well the later founding chapters can be unforgiven I guess. I would not put it past the impetium to make a few chapters using lion el'johnson's geneseed and not tell them the whole story just to cut down on them putting the hunt for the fallen ahead if the imperium, though.

As to the fallen in DW, just imnagibe the fun of putting in a black shield npc who a DA pc suspects is one....that's for particularly evil GMs only, of course.

Yes, this was kind of my question. Would all Dark Angel successors be Unforgiven or just the ones that are Second Founding? From the start I thought that the Dark Angels ran a tight ship with their successors and every one of them were in on the hunt and on the secret. But then I found the quoted part that suggested that not all the Dark Angel successors were in fact Unforgiven.

I suppose if it's a legitimate dark angels successor chapter that is founded by the dark angles with, presumably, a nucleus of dark angles who leave the DA to form the core of the chapter than yes they are unforgiven.

your question seemd to imply to me that you were asking if the unforgiven thing might be something connected with the DA geneseed itself. To this I say absolutely no. It's not like the spacewolves Wulfen or the blood angels black rage which are both inherent in the geneseed itself, it's purely a guilt issue the DA chooses to feel. If I took a set of space wolf or blood angel benesee dand implanted into some schmuck who never heard over space marines he could very well develoip the wulfen or black rage curse. if I implanted dark angel geneseed into some schmuch who never heard of them he would not start feeling gulty and unforgiveny,it's not an issue with the geneseed.

I suppose if it's a legitimate dark angels successor chapter that is founded by the dark angles with, presumably, a nucleus of dark angles who leave the DA to form the core of the chapter than yes they are unforgiven.

your question seemd to imply to me that you were asking if the unforgiven thing might be something connected with the DA geneseed itself. To this I say absolutely no. It's not like the spacewolves Wulfen or the blood angels black rage which are both inherent in the geneseed itself, it's purely a guilt issue the DA chooses to feel. If I took a set of space wolf or blood angel benesee dand implanted into some schmuck who never heard over space marines he could very well develoip the wulfen or black rage curse. if I implanted dark angel geneseed into some schmuch who never heard of them he would not start feeling gulty and unforgiveny,it's not an issue with the geneseed.

Ok, sorry if I was obtuse. But I think that the first paragraf answered my question. I was just getting the idea from that article that the Dark Angels didn't like to spread the knowledge of the Fallen so that they basically withheld information from new Chapters with Dark Angel geneseed, while I previously had tought that the Dark Angels ensured every Chapter bearing their geneseed had an inner circle knowing of the Fallen and knew to keep their mouth shut about it to those not initiatied.

yes, I guess when successor chapter is formed you have to start with a core of members from the old one who leave their chapter and found the new one with a lot of support from the imperium, in terms of equipment and such. So they start recruiting noobs from wheverer they start out at and begin training them as members of the new chapter. I suppose they begin drilling the newbs with the original chapter dogma.

I'm almost surprised there Inquisition hasn't founded a chapter ofmarines of their very own to supply desthwatch instead of borrowing marines from other chapters. Likewise these marines could be specially conditioned by the Inquisition for secrecy. I guess there grey knights are kinda close to that, and all terminators too...

I suppose if it's a legitimate dark angels successor chapter that is founded by the dark angles with, presumably, a nucleus of dark angles who leave the DA to form the core of the chapter than yes they are unforgiven.

your question seemd to imply to me that you were asking if the unforgiven thing might be something connected with the DA geneseed itself. To this I say absolutely no. It's not like the spacewolves Wulfen or the blood angels black rage which are both inherent in the geneseed itself, it's purely a guilt issue the DA chooses to feel. If I took a set of space wolf or blood angel benesee dand implanted into some schmuck who never heard over space marines he could very well develoip the wulfen or black rage curse. if I implanted dark angel geneseed into some schmuch who never heard of them he would not start feeling gulty and unforgiveny,it's not an issue with the geneseed.

Ok, sorry if I was obtuse. But I think that the first paragraf answered my question. I was just getting the idea from that article that the Dark Angels didn't like to spread the knowledge of the Fallen so that they basically withheld information from new Chapters with Dark Angel geneseed, while I previously had tought that the Dark Angels ensured every Chapter bearing their geneseed had an inner circle knowing of the Fallen and knew to keep their mouth shut about it to those not initiatied.

The Angels of Absolution are a second founding chapter and pointedly do not use the Unforgiven designation.

And several chapters who are not confirmed to have Dark Angel geneseed react poorly to the notion that they may be successors.

Edit: The designation mentioned here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Redemption's_Lament

OK, my personal guess on the above post and this is just a guess is that some of the DA off shoot shapters basically made a decision to out their duty to the imperium first and foremost and this meant for swearing the whole dark angel 'hunt the unforgiven to the exclusion of all else!' thing.

Maybe some successor chapter did hunt the fallen instead of doing their duty and in some way the inperium suffered for it, and they had to witness the harm their betrayal of their duty caused. Maybe a chapter after seeing the consequences of their selfishness even did the unthinkable and took a vote on whether to maintain their 'unforgiven' creed or put aside their obsession with the fallen and out their duty to humanity first and foremost.

I can see that as a situation that fits the background setting and has a certain honor to it.perhaps the dark angel successors who deny their background are those who may possibly even view the dark angle habit of putting the hunt for the fallen above all else to be almost treasonous.

Ok, that has honor, betrayel, bitter division of brothers and dark secrets. Damned if that doesn't look like a 40k explanation to.me!

Generally speaking only the members of the Inner Circle such as All Chapter Masters, Company Masters, and member of the Deathwing and the Ravenwings' Black Knights are privy to who the fallen actually are each rank underneath them knows less and less with the regular rank and file troops knowing next to nothing other than they should have an absolute hate for anyone bearing the taint of Chaos....avid Dark Angels player in 40k and read all the fluff.

A lot of the fluff contrwdicts itself of it outdated by later editions. In the original fluff the empror founded the dark angels and the chapter master was simply called the custodian.

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Just want to say; thanks guiys, the picture is clearer now.

yes, I guess when successor chapter is formed you have to start with a core of members from the old one who leave their chapter and found the new one with a lot of support from the imperium, in terms of equipment and such. So they start recruiting noobs from wheverer they start out at and begin training them as members of the new chapter. I suppose they begin drilling the newbs with the original chapter dogma.

I'm almost surprised there Inquisition hasn't founded a chapter ofmarines of their very own to supply desthwatch instead of borrowing marines from other chapters. Likewise these marines could be specially conditioned by the Inquisition for secrecy. I guess there grey knights are kinda close to that, and all terminators too...

Who says they haven't?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Hunters

Grey Knights haven't been all Terminators in some time. Which does make sense. Terminator armour is fantastic for defending a static position or for close-up, murderous assaults. But not so good if you need any significant mobility.

at the time j left the gw.40k.universe the gk wwereall tterminators so iIdidn't know tthatthrybusr normslarnor too.

As to the red hunters, lesge it to the iInquisition to foul up a Marine chapter. I mean, let's mind wipe them over and over so they.lose their skills and experience constantly because we're so paranoid

Plus they wwe'refounded to wipe out the ttraitor legions? It's been 10000 years and not one ttraitor legion has been wiped out. Meanwhile severalloyal.mMaries chapters have been wiped out by chaos.

at the time j left the gw.40k.universe the gk wwereall tterminators so iIdidn't know tthatthrybusr normslarnor too.

As to the red hunters, lesge it to the iInquisition to foul up a Marine chapter. I mean, let's mind wipe them over and over so they.lose their skills and experience constantly because we're so paranoid

Plus they wwe'refounded to wipe out the ttraitor legions? It's been 10000 years and not one ttraitor legion has been wiped out. Meanwhile severalloyal.mMaries chapters have been wiped out by chaos.

The Red Hunter writeup would make more sense if they were just intended to hunt Traitor Legionnaires. Eliminating entire Legions is a job for, well, Legions of astartes. Which no longer technically exist.

Though one day, maybe the claims that the Alpha Legion have been wiped out will turn out to be true.

So far, the Alpha Legion has been declared wiped out by the High Lords of Terra no less than three times, in M31 , M32 and M39 . These claims have always been disproved by the continued assaults of the Legion.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion#Post-Heresy

sorry some of my posts suck, but my tablet is actively fighting my efforts to type properly.

Inquisitor: "The alpha legion is dead!"

Gathering of deathwatch marines: *great rejoicing*

Inquisitor (reveals himself to be Alpharius): "We are now the Omega legion! Aahahahha! The look on your faces!"