And yet the stocks are back to almost exactly where they were and the US,Canada and..Germany have firmly stated that they would really like to work a good trade deal with the UK. All this and independence *L*

Don't cry victory just yet.

Until Article 50 has been invoked, nothing has changed, and who will invoke 50? Who dares?

Gah. So I wake up this morning to see on my Facebook timeline a number of well researched, well thought out and eloquently written articles talking about the implications of the United Kingdom's referendum on leaving the EU.

And in the comments section of each, you're all but guaranteed to see a selection of repulsive responses along the following lines:

"FFS another sore loser".

"You lost, get over it".

"LOL shut up already".

And so forth, and so on.

Sore loser? Get over it? Shut up? This isn't the death of a pet goldfish or the result of a football match we're talking about here; it's the economic and political future of our country, and it's place and role in the world community. Having watched approximately 20% wiped off the value of my savings, pension and salary overnight I think a little concern and discussion on the implications still to come is more than warranted.

17 million voted leave, 16 million voted remain. The "United Kingdom" is no longer United. The electorate has been split almost 50-50 by an incredible divisive and destructive campaign.

Scotland voted overwhelming in favour of staying in the EU. They will now seek a referendum of their own ot leave the UK. Having - barely - decided to remain a part of the UK, then a part of the European Union, it's likely that this time the SNP will get their wish.

Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the EU. That result has lead Sinn Fein to declare that the time is right for a united Ireland.

Gibraltar - to the surprise of absolutely no-one - voted overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the EU. The result has led Spain to call for a joint Government in Gibraltar. Like Ireland. I'm unwilling to even contemplate what may happen.

The European politicians are shocked, angry and in many cases, feeling betrayed. The New Yorker cover shown earlier in the topic sums up the impression our counterparts across the Atlantic now have of us. Trade negotiations with not only Europe but our other worldwide partners will become more difficult as a result of this decision, because our negotiating position is nowhere near as strong as it was prior to this result.

Our Prime Minister has resigned. The opposition is in crisis. We are leaderless and directionless.

"Make Britain Great Again" was the Leave slogan. Unfortunately, Britain will essentially no longer exist.

Yeah, even not invoking Article 50, too much has changed.

I voted for Brexit.

In the run up to the vote, people were asking questions that no one in the world knew the answer to. This vote was the first of its kind, unique. There was nothing to compare it to.

For myself, immigration never came into it.

The question I asked myself as I made my X was "Do I trust that we can handle our own affairs?" And my answer was YES.

When I woke up I was very surprised at the result.

"We" presumably meaning Britain? Perhaps you favour even smaller political division - do you trust that we in a given county can handle our own affairs? A given town? As individuals? Or perhaps tectonic activity designed this island to be exactly the perfect size for political organisation. How fortunate.

And yet the stocks are back to almost exactly where they were and the US,Canada and..Germany have firmly stated that they would really like to work a good trade deal with the UK. All this and independence *L*

as Dagonet says, don't cry victory just yet. It might just be that Brit gamers, who are the main people who I have chatted to in the past few days, are a certain type who gravitated towards stay. chatted to about 20 people most of whom are pretty angry at the minute. The politicos probably don't have to worry about them though.

But with some of the major leave promises starting to unravel now, the so called £350 million (doesn't exist and they have spent over £400M in promises anyway), the stopping of free movement of people in Europe (won't happen). Combine that with food/fuel rises due to the weakness of the pound. And the fact that your last statement is off the mark, this wasn't a vote for independence, we were always independent no matter what you think. But we still have to trade with Europe, so that means staying signed up to a lot of things that the out brigade won't like with no say in the rules that govern Europe. If I was David Cameron I wouldn't back down from letting next PM invoke article 50. i'd say screw you, let them handle it when the all those who voted out discover that a lot of what they thought they were voting for were outright lies.

Those are the angry people the politicos had better watch out for.

Here's another laugh...just heard on TV that this means the end for the Tory party arguments over Europe. I'm willing to bet the shirt off my back the Tory party will be arguing over Europe 10 years after we have left :-)

I just read a piece from The Guardian, basically Boris Johnson, as presumptive PM, is screwed. David Cameron has brilliantly outplayed him.

Boris has a few choices:

- run and don't invoke 50, he is finished politically

- don't run, he's finished politically

- run, trigger 50, get confronted with all the doom and gloom of a post-breakup UK.

The rivalry between those two should be enough to fill a few bookshelves, give them both some armies and you could enact the rivalry between Pompey and Caesar.

I voted for Brexit.

In the run up to the vote, people were asking questions that no one in the world knew the answer to. This vote was the first of its kind, unique. There was nothing to compare it to.

For myself, immigration never came into it.

The question I asked myself as I made my X was "Do I trust that we can handle our own affairs?" And my answer was YES.

When I woke up I was very surprised at the result.

"We" presumably meaning Britain? Perhaps you favour even smaller political division - do you trust that we in a given county can handle our own affairs? A given town? As individuals? Or perhaps tectonic activity designed this island to be exactly the perfect size for political organisation. How fortunate.

For a while now, more and more power has been devolved to individual member countries of the UK - Heck, even Manchester itself has been given special status to handle more of its own affairs.

Compare that to Europe.

I think that Europe has no idea what its citizens actually want. It refuses to deviate from "The European Vision" and has invited many more countries to join who really arent in a fit state to join.

Brexit has highlighted those issues.

Europe needs to review its intentions, because there are a lot of other member states that given the chance, would also vote to exit - And all any political party needs do to win the general elections in their country is promise a free vote on its European membership.

If Britain leaves, if Sweden leaves, if Netherlands leave, it France leaves, Italy leaves - Then maybe the problem isnt the people in those countries, maybe its Europe.

Heck, the leavers could form their own union.

Funnily enough, we wouldnt have even been offered this referendum if Scotland hadnt been given their own chance to break away.

Either way, the Rebels have just launched proton torpedoes down the EU's exhaust port.

What stops people from doing that now?

+ education.

Government makes all three better.

If Britain leaves, if Sweden leaves, if Netherlands leave, it France leaves, Italy leaves - Then maybe the problem isnt the people in those countries, maybe its Europe.

Heck, the leavers could form their own union.

I wouldn't mind going back to the original 6 or 7, or even the base 12. That would go a long way to stabilizing the whole thing.

Or a NEU: GB, Benelux, Scandinavia, Germany.

Rich, stable, same outlook on things, not too hung up on national pride.

What Brexit campaigners and Donald Trump realized is the political lessons already in use by republics before the year 0.

- Keep It Stupidly Simpel

- Repetition

Slogans such as:

"money we spend on the EU can go to healthcare."

"If WE control our borders, WE keep foreigners out"

"Make America great again"

"Yes we can"

"Let's take back our country."

They work. Period.

And the weird part is... I can't even remember wishing to "live in interesting times."

I would sooooooo love to be able to read a history textbook from 200 years in the future. What they're going to say about this period would be so fascinating.

I'm afraid it will read like something out a Fallout game.

something among the lines of:

"Britain seceded from the Union... European trade war... Trump elected but is assasinated two days later ... IS destroyed... Ireland invades England...Putin decalred "Russian holy war" against... Belgium wiped out by rage zombies...Contaigon spreads... cure found... 2nd european trade war.. World war III starts... Armageddon day... Cult of X-wing rises ..."

What Brexit campaigners and Donald Trump realized is the political lessons already in use by republics before the year 0.

- Keep It Stupidly Simpel

- Repetition

Slogans such as:

"money we spend on the EU can go to healthcare."

"If WE control our borders, WE keep foreigners out"

"Make America great again"

"Yes we can"

"Let's take back our country."

They work. Period.

Boris nailed it with that "Indepenance day" bit. Altough that should have clued in a couple of people because that new independance day movie is made of stupid!

That was farage, wasn't it?

A turd's a turd, whatever you call it.

I just read a piece from The Guardian, basically Boris Johnson, as presumptive PM, is screwed. David Cameron has brilliantly outplayed him.

Boris has a few choices:

- run and don't invoke 50, he is finished politically

- don't run, he's finished politically

- run, trigger 50, get confronted with all the doom and gloom of a post-breakup UK.

The rivalry between those two should be enough to fill a few bookshelves, give them both some armies and you could enact the rivalry between Pompey and Caesar.

And the weird part is... I can't even remember wishing to "live in interesting times."

I would sooooooo love to be able to read a history textbook from 200 years in the future. What they're going to say about this period would be so fascinating.

I'm afraid it will read like something out a Fallout game.

something among the lines of:

"Britain seceded from the Union... European trade war... Trump elected but is assasinated two days later ... IS destroyed... Ireland invades England...Putin decalred "Russian holy war" against... Belgium wiped out by rage zombies...Contaigon spreads... cure found... 2nd european trade war.. World war III starts... Armageddon day... Cult of X-wing rises ..."

The Cult of X-Wing, anxiously awaiting the reveal of wave 66 with firm believe that FFG still exists. Anyone who dares to doubt that will be gruesomely executed.

I dearly hope that the EU does not severe ties with Britain in some act of childish retaliation, I want Europes lasting peace to be a thing generations after me will still be able to take for granted (even though we shouldn't).

I just read a piece from The Guardian, basically Boris Johnson, as presumptive PM, is screwed. David Cameron has brilliantly outplayed him.

Boris has a few choices:

- run and don't invoke 50, he is finished politically

- don't run, he's finished politically

- run, trigger 50, get confronted with all the doom and gloom of a post-breakup UK.

The rivalry between those two should be enough to fill a few bookshelves, give them both some armies and you could enact the rivalry between Pompey and Caesar.

Cameron hasn't done Boris an favors, but this is mostly Boris defeating himself.

He'll beat up some oink again and all will be well.

I voted for Brexit.

In the run up to the vote, people were asking questions that no one in the world knew the answer to. This vote was the first of its kind, unique. There was nothing to compare it to.

For myself, immigration never came into it.

The question I asked myself as I made my X was "Do I trust that we can handle our own affairs?" And my answer was YES.

When I woke up I was very surprised at the result.

"We" presumably meaning Britain? Perhaps you favour even smaller political division - do you trust that we in a given county can handle our own affairs? A given town? As individuals? Or perhaps tectonic activity designed this island to be exactly the perfect size for political organisation. How fortunate.

For a while now, more and more power has been devolved to individual member countries of the UK - Heck, even Manchester itself has been given special status to handle more of its own affairs.

Compare that to Europe.

When he sais " the complexities of reality"...he means " the manufactured complexities invented by government".

People who put there foot down and say society requires a government and anything else is asinine or deluded or whatever insulting word they choose to use in the moment..

Are not putting forth a reasoned argument at all. They are squirming under the weight of realising that their suppositions are false.

And lashing out with weak ad hominem.sometimes directly sophistic responses designed to belittle someone else's position.

It's ...the sort of defensive and uninteresting stuff one would expect from a government supporter who almost certainly is in on the take.

Receiving some type of subsidy perhaps.some sort of welfare handout. Perhaps has a government job. Or is the product of a government school or has been programmed at a university.

When he sais " the complexities of reality"...he means " the manufactured complexities invented by government".

People who put there foot down and say society requires a government and anything else is asinine or deluded or whatever insulting word they choose to use in the moment..

Are not putting forth a reasoned argument at all. They are squirming under the weight of realising that their suppositions are false.

And lashing out with weak ad hominem.sometimes directly sophistic responses designed to belittle someone else's position.

It's ...the sort of defensive and uninteresting stuff one would expect from a government supporter who almost certainly is in on the take.

Receiving some type of subsidy perhaps.some sort of welfare handout. Perhaps has a government job. Or is the product of a government school or has been programmed at a university.

I think I actually put forth quite a reasoned argument. I won't bother repeating it, but feel free to dissect it if you think it's wrong.

Are you arguing against government then, ie for anarchism?

Don't you think you rather demean your own argument by accusing me of argument ad hominem and in the same post asserting that I must be arguing that way because I'm "on the take"? That's Leave Campaign levels of hypocrisy, you must be proud.

Not really... I mean...I'm not accusing you of using ad hominem. It's not like...my feeling on the matter or an opinion.

It just kind of ...is what happened.

When he sais " the complexities of reality"...he means " the manufactured complexities invented by government".

People who put there foot down and say society requires a government and anything else is asinine or deluded or whatever insulting word they choose to use in the moment..

Are not putting forth a reasoned argument at all. They are squirming under the weight of realising that their suppositions are false.

And lashing out with weak ad hominem.sometimes directly sophistic responses designed to belittle someone else's position.

It's ...the sort of defensive and uninteresting stuff one would expect from a government supporter who almost certainly is in on the take.

Receiving some type of subsidy perhaps.some sort of welfare handout. Perhaps has a government job. Or is the product of a government school or has been programmed at a university.

Universal or near-universal modern health care has been solved fairly well with government in various levels of involvement. It has never been solved without it.

Environmental issues cannot be solved without governments.

Modern education has never been done without government.

Disease eradication has not been done without government.

Modern basic research is almost entirely funded by governments.

Universal Roads.

Universal Power.

Food safety.

None of these things have ever been done without some level of government involvement.

I think you are mistaken on almost all of those points.

The exception being power. But I'm curious to look into it.

I think you are mistaken on almost all of those points.

The exception being power. But I'm curious to look into it.