People starved during the depression because they were allowed to playarket roulette...

Your words.

Allowed.

By the government protecting big business.allowed... very interesting.

Still I'm glad we have some common ground.

The state allows and protects unethical business... keeps them afloat long past their expiration date. Protects the owners of the corporations. Makes it so they are not liable for their immoral actions.

I'm glad these things have been addressed in the almost hundred years of increasing government control.

*Knock knock..

Oh, someone's at the door...I'll get it.

Oh hi 2008 . Glad you could join us...whose that with you? Oh...a financial crisis. But..huh.thats wierd.

Also..lord of the flies? Really? Can we stop trying to use fictional work as examples of why it's better to point guns at people to solve social problems?

"Excuse me, Tyson? Your chicken nugget farm is poisoning a river that passes through my property and on which I rely to water my crops and feed my family. Here's the multi-million dollar, multi-decadal data set that proves it."

People starved during the depression because they were allowed to playarket roulette...

Your words.

Allowed.

By the government protecting big business.allowed... very interesting.

Still I'm glad we have some common ground.

The state allows and protects unethical business... keeps them afloat long past their expiration date. Protects the owners of the corporations. Makes it so they are not liable for their immoral actions.

I'm glad these things have been addressed in the almost hundred years of increasing government control.

*Knock knock..

Oh, someone's at the door...I'll get it.

Oh hi 2008 . Glad you could join us...whose that with you? Oh...a financial crisis. But..huh.thats wierd.

Also..lord of the flies? Really? Can we stop trying to use fictional work as examples of why it's better to point guns at people to solve social problems?

The fantasy that corporations would somehow magically pay for their mistakes if government just got out of the way is ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that individual citizens armed with lawsuits or their "consumer vote" could have cleaned up our air and waterways?

"Excuse me, Tyson? Your chicken nugget farm is poisoning a river that passes through my property and on which I rely to water my crops and feed my family. Here's the multi-million dollar, multi-decadal data set that proves it."

We should determine what kind of security Mr Tyson has. You could reasonably gather a pretty good posse if other families were down river.

While I'm not opposed to government it's nto as though they can prevent, resolve, or can't cause crises themselves. Just look at Hinkley or Flint.

People starved during the depression because they were allowed to playarket roulette...

Your words.

Allowed.

By the government protecting big business.allowed... very interesting.

Still I'm glad we have some common ground.

The state allows and protects unethical business... keeps them afloat long past their expiration date. Protects the owners of the corporations. Makes it so they are not liable for their immoral actions.

I'm glad these things have been addressed in the almost hundred years of increasing government control.

*Knock knock..

Oh, someone's at the door...I'll get it.

Oh hi 2008 . Glad you could join us...whose that with you? Oh...a financial crisis. But..huh.thats wierd.

Also..lord of the flies? Really? Can we stop trying to use fictional work as examples of why it's better to point guns at people to solve social problems?

The fantasy that corporations would somehow magically pay for their mistakes if government just got out of the way is ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that individual citizens armed with lawsuits or their "consumer vote" could have cleaned up our air and waterways?

"Excuse me, Tyson? Your chicken nugget farm is poisoning a river that passes through my property and on which I rely to water my crops and feed my family. Here's the multi-million dollar, multi-decadal data set that proves it."

We should determine what kind of security Mr Tyson has. You could reasonably gather a pretty good posse if other families were down river.

While I'm not opposed to government it's nto as though they can prevent, resolve, or can't cause crises themselves. Just look at Hinkley or Flint.

Heck without government schools and regulations you and your neighbors wouldn't even know what chromium-6 was or in what industries it was used.

When individuals go up against corporations they are at a monstrous disadvantage even with all the tools government gives them. Best case scenario you are tied up in courts through several generations.

People starved during the depression because they were allowed to playarket roulette...

Your words.

Allowed.

By the government protecting big business.allowed... very interesting.

Still I'm glad we have some common ground.

The state allows and protects unethical business... keeps them afloat long past their expiration date. Protects the owners of the corporations. Makes it so they are not liable for their immoral actions.

I'm glad these things have been addressed in the almost hundred years of increasing government control.

*Knock knock..

Oh, someone's at the door...I'll get it.

Oh hi 2008 . Glad you could join us...whose that with you? Oh...a financial crisis. But..huh.thats wierd.

Also..lord of the flies? Really? Can we stop trying to use fictional work as examples of why it's better to point guns at people to solve social problems?

The fantasy that corporations would somehow magically pay for their mistakes if government just got out of the way is ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that individual citizens armed with lawsuits or their "consumer vote" could have cleaned up our air and waterways?

"Excuse me, Tyson? Your chicken nugget farm is poisoning a river that passes through my property and on which I rely to water my crops and feed my family. Here's the multi-million dollar, multi-decadal data set that proves it."

We should determine what kind of security Mr Tyson has. You could reasonably gather a pretty good posse if other families were down river.

While I'm not opposed to government it's nto as though they can prevent, resolve, or can't cause crises themselves. Just look at Hinkley or Flint.

Without government research and regulation Hinkley and Flint would be the norm. And we wouldn't even know it was bad.

Heck without government schools and regulations you and your neighbors wouldn't even know what chromium-6 was or in what industries it was used.

When individuals go up against corporations they are at a monstrous disadvantage even with all the tools government gives them. Best case scenario you are tied up in courts through several generations.

I'm fairly confident that when a lot of kids in your community end up retarded or sick you'd know something was awry. Certainly the government has a huge hand in resolving or minimizing stuff like this but in Flint and Walkerton at least they had a hand in casunig it too.

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

People starved during the depression because they were allowed to playarket roulette...

Your words.

Allowed.

By the government protecting big business.allowed... very interesting.

Still I'm glad we have some common ground.

The state allows and protects unethical business... keeps them afloat long past their expiration date. Protects the owners of the corporations. Makes it so they are not liable for their immoral actions.

I'm glad these things have been addressed in the almost hundred years of increasing government control.

*Knock knock..

Oh, someone's at the door...I'll get it.

Oh hi 2008 . Glad you could join us...whose that with you? Oh...a financial crisis. But..huh.thats wierd.

Also..lord of the flies? Really? Can we stop trying to use fictional work as examples of why it's better to point guns at people to solve social problems?

The fantasy that corporations would somehow magically pay for their mistakes if government just got out of the way is ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that individual citizens armed with lawsuits or their "consumer vote" could have cleaned up our air and waterways?

"Excuse me, Tyson? Your chicken nugget farm is poisoning a river that passes through my property and on which I rely to water my crops and feed my family. Here's the multi-million dollar, multi-decadal data set that proves it."

We should determine what kind of security Mr Tyson has. You could reasonably gather a pretty good posse if other families were down river.

While I'm not opposed to government it's nto as though they can prevent, resolve, or can't cause crises themselves. Just look at Hinkley or Flint.

Without government research and regulation Hinkley and Flint would be the norm. And we wouldn't even know it was bad.

Heck without government schools and regulations you and your neighbors wouldn't even know what chromium-6 was or in what industries it was used.

When individuals go up against corporations they are at a monstrous disadvantage even with all the tools government gives them. Best case scenario you are tied up in courts through several generations.

I'm fairly confident that when a lot of kids in your community end up retarded or sick you'd know something was awry. Certainly the government has a huge hand in resolving or minimizing stuff like this but in Flint and Walkerton at least they had a hand in casunig it too.

It took 4 decades of fighting to stop big tobacco, and that was with billions in research on the side of science.

Flint or worse was the norm before government stepped in. Communities didn't fix it. Neighborhoods didn't fix it.

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

How do you stop me without government?

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

I own a farm upstream from your farm. Dead carcasses from my farm make your water undrinkable and kill your livestock and children.

How do you stop me without government?

A system perhaps similar to government but without the monopolization of the use of force.

Or perhaps a system that is not at all similar to government ...but still does not have a monopolization on the use of force.

I don`t care how disputes will be resolved. I care that they are resolved in a society that has a respect for property rights and is non aggressive.

imagine the following conversation taking place in the 1850s....

"But without slaves....how will the cotton be picked"?

"I don`t care how the cotton will be picked in the future. I care that it will be picked NOT BY SLAVES"

Nobody at that time could have imagined that in the absence of slavery, the cotton will be picked by incredibly efficient mechanical devices that roam around a field.

so, it doesnt matter if a mugger or a polluting farm or a leprechaun is managed in a way to similar to this one possibility....

or some other potential method.

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

I own a farm upstream from your farm. Dead carcasses from my farm make your water undrinkable and kill your livestock and children.

How do you stop me without government?

A system perhaps similar to government but without the monopolization of the use of force.

Or perhaps a system that is not at all similar to government ...but still does not have a monopolization on the use of force.

I don`t care how disputes will be resolved. I care that they are resolved in a society that has a respect for property rights and is non aggressive.

imagine the following conversation taking place in the 1850s....

"But without slaves....how will the cotton be picked"?

"I don`t care how the cotton will be picked in the future. I care that it will be picked NOT BY SLAVES"

Nobody at that time could have imagined that in the absence of slavery, the cotton will be picked by incredibly efficient mechanical devices that roam around a field.

so, it doesnt matter if a mugger or a polluting farm or a leprechaun is managed in a way to similar to this one possibility....

or some other potential method.

Actually, the answer would have been "I don't care - pick it yourself if you want, and if you can't then that's your problem, not society's."

Are you likening the problems of one rich landowner being unable to make money for doing nothing, with the situation of anybody not strong enough to protect themselves from oppression?

When you're talking about eradicating the system we have for protecting the most vulnerable, for spreading wealth and resources more fairly through society, it's on you to explain what you'd replace it with.

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

What insults?

What fictions?

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

I own a farm upstream from your farm. Dead carcasses from my farm make your water undrinkable and kill your livestock and children.

How do you stop me without government?

A system perhaps similar to government but without the monopolization of the use of force.

Or perhaps a system that is not at all similar to government ...but still does not have a monopolization on the use of force.

I don`t care how disputes will be resolved. I care that they are resolved in a society that has a respect for property rights and is non aggressive.

imagine the following conversation taking place in the 1850s....

"But without slaves....how will the cotton be picked"?

"I don`t care how the cotton will be picked in the future. I care that it will be picked NOT BY SLAVES"

Nobody at that time could have imagined that in the absence of slavery, the cotton will be picked by incredibly efficient mechanical devices that roam around a field.

so, it doesnt matter if a mugger or a polluting farm or a leprechaun is managed in a way to similar to this one possibility....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmCPtD16G3Q

or some other potential method.

Edit: watched the clip. If you can believe a system like that can provide the level of security from harm that we experience then absolutely nobody is going to be able to make you see reason.

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

I own a farm upstream from your farm. Dead carcasses from my farm make your water undrinkable and kill your livestock and children.

How do you stop me without government?

A system perhaps similar to government but without the monopolization of the use of force.

Or perhaps a system that is not at all similar to government ...but still does not have a monopolization on the use of force.

I don`t care how disputes will be resolved. I care that they are resolved in a society that has a respect for property rights and is non aggressive.

imagine the following conversation taking place in the 1850s....

"But without slaves....how will the cotton be picked"?

"I don`t care how the cotton will be picked in the future. I care that it will be picked NOT BY SLAVES"

Nobody at that time could have imagined that in the absence of slavery, the cotton will be picked by incredibly efficient mechanical devices that roam around a field.

so, it doesnt matter if a mugger or a polluting farm or a leprechaun is managed in a way to similar to this one possibility....

or some other potential method.

I just watched that video. So what I said earlier what exactly right - what you want to do is privatise the ability to use force to get your way.

What a democratic government, particularly a left wing one, does, is redistribute the ability to enforce your will from rich to poor. What a free market like you propose does is the opposite.

What your saying is not true. Nothing is settled regarding what the causes of the great depression were.but of course nobody cares about facts when it's so much easier to hurl more insults at me.

Here's the easy mode wiki link... because... apparently its my job and my job only to know how everything gets done...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

You want to know how disputes can be resolved peacefully in a stateless society?

Go look it up.

If you don't care how these problems can be resolved then ..don't care.n it ive Definetly had enough of being talked down to. Especially by a crowd who has basic facts so wrong but then has the nerve to try and squeeze me for answers on how to handle ....fictions?

I own a farm upstream from your farm. Dead carcasses from my farm make your water undrinkable and kill your livestock and children.

How do you stop me without government?

A system perhaps similar to government but without the monopolization of the use of force.

Or perhaps a system that is not at all similar to government ...but still does not have a monopolization on the use of force.

I don`t care how disputes will be resolved. I care that they are resolved in a society that has a respect for property rights and is non aggressive.

imagine the following conversation taking place in the 1850s....

"But without slaves....how will the cotton be picked"?

"I don`t care how the cotton will be picked in the future. I care that it will be picked NOT BY SLAVES"

Nobody at that time could have imagined that in the absence of slavery, the cotton will be picked by incredibly efficient mechanical devices that roam around a field.

so, it doesnt matter if a mugger or a polluting farm or a leprechaun is managed in a way to similar to this one possibility....

or some other potential method.

I respectfully disagree with your belief that any and all government is automatically bad, and I have a few issues with the ideas presented in the video.

1. First, I don't even really understand the point. So, instead of handing authority to a bunch of government agencies with internal checks and balances, we hand it to a bunch of private agencies with external checks and balances. I guess that accomplishes your purpose of removing government, but functionally, how is it any different than under government?

2. What happens to those who don't have a firm to represent them? Is protection of basic human rights to be just a service that can only be achieved if you pay for it?

3. As much as the video emphasized bad reputations being the punishment to keep the system in line, I simply don't find this is believable. For one thing, once you have a few large, established firms, what happens if they all decide to act in cahoots (happens in current businesses all the time)? More importantly, how do you get people to care enough to do something about it? Most people, once they've gotten used to paying their monthly check, aren't going to do anything if it doesn't directly affect them ("My firm decided to stop covering motorcycle theft? Good thing I don't own a motorcycle!"), and many, quite frankly, won't even bother knowing much of anything about their firm! This whole plan requires a level of involvement, responsibility, and competence that I, personally, find lacking in the average citizen. And in a government-free, consumer-driven system like this, the average citizen will be what matters.

I have other questions concerning standards and laws, but it sounds like the guy covers it in the next video, so I'll hold off until I've had a chance to view it (even if I disagree with the concept, it's still a fascinating theory). In the end, I agree that our current governments are too large and powerful, but to go to the opposite extreme and annihilate them completely would be, in my mind, very foolish indeed. Especially when the suggested alternative has every bit as much possibility for corruption, but without all the bureaucracy to help limit/contain it.

As I've said before (not on this message board, so don't bother looking), the worst thing about bureaucracy is that it makes it tough to implement change. On the other hand, the good thing about bureaucracy is that it makes it tough to implement change.

...Thinking that abolishing "government" will also abolish human nature is naive in the extreme and aptly demonstrated throughout history to not work. Ever read "Lord of the Flies"? (Good lord, high school English class was just useful).

This made me smile, and I considered saving it so I can use it the next time a student asks me why s/he needs to study what we're working on. But then it occurred to me that "So you can make a valid point in an online discussion about government and anarchy" probably isn't the best answer to that question...

A governmentless society is like communism, fine in theory but in reality it will fall to the first dictator who will keep it as a thin veil to hide behind.

...Thinking that abolishing "government" will also abolish human nature is naive in the extreme and aptly demonstrated throughout history to not work. Ever read "Lord of the Flies"? (Good lord, high school English class was just useful).

This made me smile, and I considered saving it so I can use it the next time a student asks me why s/he needs to study what we're working on. But then it occurred to me that "So you can make a valid point in an online discussion about government and anarchy" probably isn't the best answer to that question...

A valid point in an online discussion about government and anarchy on a forum dedicated to playing with toy spaceships.

Yeah. It's not that compelling except to a certain mindset, I suppose.

But what about that great drama unfolding in the UK now?

Labour imploded, destroyed, the shadow minister of finance deleting key files and notes off the shared hard drive.

The Conservatives, well. That's just Shakespearean, the Fall of the Etonites, stabbed in the back by Gove who is now equally as hard dismissed.

A governmentless society is like communism, fine in theory but in reality it will fall to the first dictator who will keep it as a thin veil to hide behind.

I don't think that's the problem with communism, you could have democratic communism if enough people supported it. I think perhaps a key problem (other than lack of support) is enacting it on a per country basis, with the rest of the world not playing by the same rules. I haven't really thought about it though.

someone just said... a governmentless society is like communism.

i need to take a moment on that.

communism....the largest and most controlling form of centralized control.

is the same as .... a stateless society...

like...they essentially just said......Black is the same thing as white.

someone just said... a governmentless society is like communism.

i need to take a moment on that.

communism....the largest and most controlling form of centralized control.

is the same as .... a stateless society...

like...they essentially just said......Black is the same thing as white.

Well, comprehensive reading is not your strong suit, I understand.

Maybe try reading that again? And this time more than the first few words? A comma (,) is not the same as a period (.), a sentence does not end with a comma.

I've got to give you that good sir. I missed the mark.

someone just said... a governmentless society is like communism.

i need to take a moment on that.

communism....the largest and most controlling form of centralized control.

is the same as .... a stateless society...

like...they essentially just said......Black is the same thing as white.

Well, comprehensive reading is not your strong suit, I understand.

Maybe try reading that again? And this time more than the first few words? A comma (,) is not the same as a period (.), a sentence does not end with a comma.

A semicolon would have been the more fitting punctuation mark in that sentence. Very underused, the semicolon.

I've got to give you that good sir. I missed the mark.

Man, I wish I agreed with your argument now, for the sake of that pun!

Another reason why I'd prefer to leave the EU, or at least trim it down a whole lot: They are now messing with our pension funds. New legislation is being ramrodded through our parliament "so as not to hinder the planning of the EU", while the world is distracted by the Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutions_for_Occupational_Retirement_Provision_Directive

60% of all currently set aside pension funds are Dutch, we *really* take care of our old age, in total the funds have more than 1250 billion euro's. That is money already set aside, where other countries might have their pensions as an item on the budget (such as Greece). The EU will allow pension funds to move to different countries and will take away the oversight from the Dutch.

The Germans are exempt, they were smart enough to not hand control over to the EU, but our parliament is too scared of the EU and hasn't been paying attention either.

LOL weasel farrage quit!

"well chaps, I got you all in a nice mess, didn't I? My job here is done!"

So cameron, boris and nigel have alread quit over the brexit. (wich they have made possible btw) Amazing. Am-fukkin-azing.

Can't say I'm even surprised at this point.

There used to be a conspiracy theory that Trump would drop out of the race won he'd won the nomination so Clinton could get the presidency by default (I vote for third parties, but I'm realistic in my assessment of their probability of winning); maybe politicians the world 'round have just decided to do terrible things to screw up their countries...

Hmm, and after the Panama Papers were leaked, this almost could make sense in a Dan Brown novel.

Oh, when I say "screw up their countries," I'm not implying that Clinton would be worse than Trump; merely pointing out that the vitriol Trump spews does no one any good.