I think Dagonet's job already was in Amsterdam.

Both my home-nations heavily depend on trade and transportation, accounting for two of the largest ports in Europe and the world.

Getting out of the EU would anihalate our economy.

And whatever the cost of the EU, as long as France, Germany, and the UK are bound together by economy, they don't have aan wish to send their soldiers to meet in the middle.

I like that a LOT

Instead you get your job moved to Amsterdam though?

I'm disappointed by everyone calling for the EU's destruction. It may not be what it was, but the EU was founded as a force for peace after the most damaging war in human history.

My grandmother was an au pair in Germany up until 1938, for a Jewish family. She got out before the war, but the whole family was annihilated at Auschwitz. She couldn't ever talk to another German person again in her life.

But she voted to join the EU and supported its aims fully for the rest of her life, because she had seen what happens when Europe is not peaceful, and didn't want that to happen to her children or her grandchildren or her great grandchildren.

Sadly, her first great grandchild will probably grow up without it.

And we won't have any hope of bringing it back to what it should have been if we take our toys and sail off into the sunset - or is that a giant tyre fire, who knows?

Close by Amsterdam, but even if everything moved to Frankfurt it would make no sense to move us there. Right now we've duplicate departments, one in NL and one in London, if London falls away, it'll just be us.

I'm not convinced it is the EU as it currently is, that we need to keep peace, nor that its dissolution would lead to war (talk about fear mongering, it isn't just the leave camp that used scare tactics).

The EU expanded way too quickly for my taste, adding loads of countries that were economically not up to standards, nor socially. And that just to add more markets for the larger economies, mostly Germany, or more political prestige and power. Add to that the dictatorial attitude, the disparity (France and Germany having deficits higher than allowed other countries and reglations), the too nationalistic attitudes of several countries.

No, the EU either goes too far, or not far enough, it should dial down or turn into a united states of Europe. The latter will not happen, the cultural differences are too large, too old, too deep.

I'm not suggesting it leads directly to war. I am suggesting that it might well lead to the further rise of the far right, further divisions between the member states, etc etc etc.

It's a tough thing to discuss, because it makes you sound paranoid and godwinny when you compare things to Hitler, but... there are disturbing parallels between the political and economic situations in Europe in the twenties and thirties and today, and to the rise of right-wing thinking, the rise of hate speech and persecution of minorities, the denigration of intellectuals and experts, and the rise of elitist politicians leading to an isolated political class and the majority searching for an alternative voice which is being provided by the right because the politicians are also rightist so they're more interested in quashing the left than the further right.

It's really, really worrying; that's what's scaring me more than any economic consequences of the decision. That ten years from now I'll be living in V For Vendetta.

Exactly it was the last wave of EU members that buggered things up royally.

We didn't sign up to the EU to bankroll countries that can't or won't manage their own economies, you think Greece isn't a big part of some people's desire to leave?

Oh and the fact you can be a founder member and just have your vetoes ignored 23 times shows how little English opinions mattered to the EU.

I'm not suggesting it leads directly to war. I am suggesting that it might well lead to the further rise of the far right, further divisions between the member states, etc etc etc.

It's a tough thing to discuss, because it makes you sound paranoid and godwinny when you compare things to Hitler, but... there are disturbing parallels between the political and economic situations in Europe in the twenties and thirties and today, and to the rise of right-wing thinking, the rise of hate speech and persecution of minorities, the denigration of intellectuals and experts, and the rise of elitist politicians leading to an isolated political class and the majority searching for an alternative voice which is being provided by the right because the politicians are also rightist so they're more interested in quashing the left than the further right.

It's really, really worrying; that's what's scaring me more than any economic consequences of the decision. That ten years from now I'll be living in V For Vendetta.

Well, I doubt it's as bad as all that. If it is, however, I wonder if this is a lead in to the events described in Revelation, or merely another speed bump along our way there...

I'm not suggesting it leads directly to war. I am suggesting that it might well lead to the further rise of the far right, further divisions between the member states, etc etc etc.

It's a tough thing to discuss, because it makes you sound paranoid and godwinny when you compare things to Hitler, but... there are disturbing parallels between the political and economic situations in Europe in the twenties and thirties and today, and to the rise of right-wing thinking, the rise of hate speech and persecution of minorities, the denigration of intellectuals and experts, and the rise of elitist politicians leading to an isolated political class and the majority searching for an alternative voice which is being provided by the right because the politicians are also rightist so they're more interested in quashing the left than the further right.

It's really, really worrying; that's what's scaring me more than any economic consequences of the decision. That ten years from now I'll be living in V For Vendetta.

Well, I doubt it's as bad as all that. If it is, however, I wonder if this is a lead in to the events described in Revelation, or merely another speed bump along our way there...

Obama already had his seven years and according to republicans he's the antichrist, so I think we are safe.

I'm not suggesting it leads directly to war. I am suggesting that it might well lead to the further rise of the far right, further divisions between the member states, etc etc etc.

It's a tough thing to discuss, because it makes you sound paranoid and godwinny when you compare things to Hitler, but... there are disturbing parallels between the political and economic situations in Europe in the twenties and thirties and today, and to the rise of right-wing thinking, the rise of hate speech and persecution of minorities, the denigration of intellectuals and experts, and the rise of elitist politicians leading to an isolated political class and the majority searching for an alternative voice which is being provided by the right because the politicians are also rightist so they're more interested in quashing the left than the further right.

It's really, really worrying; that's what's scaring me more than any economic consequences of the decision. That ten years from now I'll be living in V For Vendetta.

Well, I doubt it's as bad as all that. If it is, however, I wonder if this is a lead in to the events described in Revelation, or merely another speed bump along our way there...

Obama already had his seven years and according to republicans he's the antichrist, so I think we are safe.

According to which Republicans? This one never thought that (and neither did any of the others with whom I regularly converse).

I don't expect WW3 to break out as soon as te UK has left.

Though the EU was formed to strengthen ties between former enemies. To prevent such wars from happening again. It wasn't meant to quietly grow into the European Confederacy (I refer here to the type of cooperation, not one of the participants of the US Civil War)

So what worries me is the rapid decay of an institution which created an unheard of period of peace and (relative) stability

We stil have NATO/OTAN, so no immediate fear for another Anglo-Dutch war at sea, French soldiers spreading revolution, or German panzers in the Ardennes.

(No offense meant People! Long time ago!)

I might have to fear the US, after all they have the Scheveningen-invasion Act

I don't expect WW3 to break out as soon as te UK has left.

Though the EU was formed to strengthen ties between former enemies. To prevent such wars from happening again. It wasn't meant to quietly grow into the European Confederacy (I refer here to the type of cooperation, not one of the participants of the US Civil War)

So what worries me is the rapid decay of an institution which created an unheard of period of peace and (relative) stability

We stil have NATO/OTAN, so no immediate fear for another Anglo-Dutch war at sea, French soldiers spreading revolution, or German panzers in the Ardennes.

(No offense meant People! Long time ago!)

I might have to fear the US, after all they have the Scheveningen-invasion Act

Are you talking about the American Service-Members' Protection Act? How does that figure in?

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen and The Hague on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

The Hague is the seat of several international courts of justice.

The law states litterally the US is allowed to use 'any force necessary' to free any service member.

I must add here that I made this remark tongue-in-cheek though. I do expect our allies to use other solutions than outright invasion

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

WHAT? It allows them to do an amphib-HOW? WHY? It's the internatonal court of Justice! Is this in the case the court would become corupt? Why would you need a protection act? If you wanna get your boys out, just get 'em out! Are they seriously gonna go full Omaha beach on holland and then wave some legal paper going "No, it's cool! We have permit!" - Yes that does sound like americans to me.

Aaaand now the rules lawyer in me is taking over: it says amphibious assualt on Sheveningen to free US service members...

So they can't airdrop paratroops ? And they can only target Sheveningen? I suppose they are suposed to rescure the people they have come for and then leave, or can they just effin' invade and occupy half the country?

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

I don't expect WW3 to break out as soon as te UK has left.

Though the EU was formed to strengthen ties between former enemies. To prevent such wars from happening again. It wasn't meant to quietly grow into the European Confederacy (I refer here to the type of cooperation, not one of the participants of the US Civil War)

So what worries me is the rapid decay of an institution which created an unheard of period of peace and (relative) stability

We stil have NATO/OTAN, so no immediate fear for another Anglo-Dutch war at sea, French soldiers spreading revolution, or German panzers in the Ardennes.

(No offense meant People! Long time ago!)

I might have to fear the US, after all they have the Scheveningen-invasion Act

Problem is the UK and France were like the mainstream of a "european army" without the brits we're left weaker.

Also seriously doubt we'll ever see another dutch anglo sea war, not after last time (sailing up the Thames, buring the docks and stealing the britsch flagship, will leave something of a lasting impression.)

Nah we'll probably end up starting WW3 with Russia over them not buying our produce anymore.

Or we'll get invaded by Iceland- I'm starting to think these guys can do anything.

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

WHAT? It allows them to do an amphib-HOW? WHY? It's the internatonal court of Justice! Is this in the case the court would become corupt? Why would you need a protection act? If you wanna get your boys out, just get 'em out! Are they seriously gonna go full Omaha beach on holland and then wave some legal paper going "No, it's cool! We have permit!" - Yes that does sound like americans to me.

Aaaand now the rules lawyer in me is taking over: it says amphibious assualt on Sheveningen to free US service members...

So they can't airdrop paratroops ? And they can only target Sheveningen? I suppose they are suposed to rescure the people they have come for and then leave, or can they just effin' invade and occupy half the country?

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

The law says 'any force necessary' so a bunch of paratroopers dropping in is possible too.

The terms Scheveningen or The Hague Invasion act are nicknames as The Hague is the seat of several international courts of Justice.

The official name is the American Service Members Protection Act.

It was rumoured to have been implemented to prevent US service members being charged with committing War Crimes and/or crimes against humanity and subsequently face trial in at the International Court of Justice or a War Crimes Tribunal, instead of a US court.

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

WHAT? It allows them to do an amphib-HOW? WHY? It's the internatonal court of Justice! Is this in the case the court would become corupt? Why would you need a protection act? If you wanna get your boys out, just get 'em out! Are they seriously gonna go full Omaha beach on holland and then wave some legal paper going "No, it's cool! We have permit!" - Yes that does sound like americans to me.

Aaaand now the rules lawyer in me is taking over: it says amphibious assualt on Sheveningen to free US service members...

So they can't airdrop paratroops ? And they can only target Sheveningen? I suppose they are suposed to rescure the people they have come for and then leave, or can they just effin' invade and occupy half the country?

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

Technically, it says the USA will use "all means necessary and appropriate" to secure our people, so I would assume that diplomacy would be a priority and armed invasion an absolute last resort sort of thing.

...though with this current crop of presidential candidates, I can't absolutely guarantee that.

(And shame on you, Mr. Rules Lawyer, for going off of the interpretation of someone on a message board rather than looking up the official printing! XD

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c107:7:./temp/~c107pw4YAz:e237332: Sec. 2008 (a)

Meaning no offense, of course. I appreciate a good, thorough understanding of the rules as much as anyone else! )

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

That's always worked out well for you guys.

Technically, it says the USA will use "all means necessary and appropriate" to secure our people, so I would assume that diplomacy would be a priority and armed invasion an absolute last resort sort of thing.

...though with this current crop of presidential candidates, I can't absolutely guarantee that.

(And shame on you, Mr. Rules Lawyer, for going off of the interpretation of someone on a message board rather than looking up the official printing! XD

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c107:7:./temp/~c107pw4YAz:e237332: Sec. 2008 (a)

Meaning no offense, of course. I appreciate a good, thorough understanding of the rules as much as anyone else! )

Trump would probaly drop a wall on us...

Hehe! no problem! Also I've played a few games of Paranoia, an RPG where displaying knowledge of things from the GM's section of the book was punishable (said so in the rules) by execution of your character. So I tend be carefull about official printing. - Actualy I was to lazy to look that up!

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

WHAT? It allows them to do an amphib-HOW? WHY? It's the internatonal court of Justice! Is this in the case the court would become corupt? Why would you need a protection act? If you wanna get your boys out, just get 'em out! Are they seriously gonna go full Omaha beach on holland and then wave some legal paper going "No, it's cool! We have permit!" - Yes that does sound like americans to me.

Aaaand now the rules lawyer in me is taking over: it says amphibious assualt on Sheveningen to free US service members...

So they can't airdrop paratroops ? And they can only target Sheveningen? I suppose they are suposed to rescure the people they have come for and then leave, or can they just effin' invade and occupy half the country?

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

Technically, it says the USA will use "all means necessary and appropriate" to secure our people, so I would assume that diplomacy would be a priority and armed invasion an absolute last resort sort of thing.

...though with this current crop of presidential candidates, I can't absolutely guarantee that.

(And shame on you, Mr. Rules Lawyer, for going off of the interpretation of someone on a message board rather than looking up the official printing! XD

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c107:7:./temp/~c107pw4YAz:e237332: Sec. 2008 (a)

Meaning no offense, of course. I appreciate a good, thorough understanding of the rules as much as anyone else! )

As said I do expect other means first.

But when the bill got passed and news reached the small nation, there was a short upheavel of jokes about US invasion.

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

That's always worked out well for you guys.

Only because ze germans didn't understand the concepts of "fair play", "neutrality" and "no means no".(okay if there was a chance I could bypass the heavily defended French border and strike from another angle I would have done to)

Also as king Albert told der kaiser: "I run a country, not a road!"

"'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.

'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.

'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both.'"

...you know, I'm sure there's a deep, philosophical lesson about international politics somewhere in there.

It allows the US to use an amphibious assault on Scheveningen on the Dutch coast to free any US service member held in custody there to face the International Court of Justice.

They better not come trough Knokke-Heist! Belgium is neutral dammit!

That's always worked out well for you guys.

As said I do expect other means first.

But when the bill got passed and news reached the small nation, there was a short upheavel of jokes about US invasion.

Would be funnier if it was the other way around: The Netherlands invading Statten Island in order to reclaim New York, or as it was once called, New Amsterdam.

And Belgium could help and invade Florida, capture Baton Rouge and New Orléans (you know, 'cus we speak frensh )

"'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.

'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.

'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both.'"

...you know, I'm sure there's a deep, philosophical lesson about international politics somewhere in there.

The entire LOTR is about WWII, altough Tolkien denied Sauron was Adolf...

But Look at Mordor, that's basically a WWI battlefield. (okay there were no volcanoes on the western front, or fell beast, or- you know what I'm trying to say!)

"'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.

'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.

'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both.'"

...you know, I'm sure there's a deep, philosophical lesson about international politics somewhere in there.

"'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.

'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.

'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both.'"

...you know, I'm sure there's a deep, philosophical lesson about international politics somewhere in there.

The entire LOTR is about WWII, altough Tolkien denied Sauron was Adolf...

But Look at Mordor, that's basically a WWI battlefield. (okay there were no volcanoes on the western front, or fell beast, or- you know what I'm trying to say!)

It would have been interesting if the ground had opened up and swallowed the German army when Adolf killed himself.

"'It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned,' said Gimli.

'I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves,' said Legolas.

'I have heard both,' said Gandalf; 'and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both.'"

...you know, I'm sure there's a deep, philosophical lesson about international politics somewhere in there.

No worries! The Netherlands and Belgium relatively recently have, after a fallout in the 1830's, put their navies under a joined command so when we substract the ships in repair, patroling the North Sea, sweeping mines of wars long passed, and patroling the caribean we can aid our allies with probably 3 ships and 1 helikopter

He's lying folks, our Belgian navy isn't much. Enough to protect shipping agains pirates. But the dutch actualy have submarines.