The problem with any actions based on fears over immigration or refugees is that those problems are really just getting started. They're up, but the numbers of people fleeing tropical or sub-tropical zones of chaos is going to skyrocket in the next century. There is no getting around it. You either build walls and shoot everyone who tries to come over or you work on large scale plans to bring tens of millions of refugees into the first world every year for a century.

The "shoot everyone" option isn't really an option. It'd just mean war and chaos for your own country as well.

Right on. I just was making sure you were being consistent in your desire to use violence against people who disagree with your opinion.

Or rather ....have robots and police use violence against people for disagreeing your opinion.

But really there is no fundamental difference between the two other than one let's you pretend your hands are clean.

Well, one is the basis of modern civilization. So that's another difference.

One would require a significant degree of effort, self-confidence and bravery on my part too, that's another difference.

The problem with any actions based on fears over immigration or refugees is that those problems are really just getting started. They're up, but the numbers of people fleeing tropical or sub-tropical zones of chaos is going to skyrocket in the next century. There is no getting around it. You either build walls and shoot everyone who tries to come over or you work on large scale plans to beings tens of millions of refugees into the first world every year for a century.

Or you get off your collective lazy ases and put some boots on the ground.

Btw, what a bunch of Ramsay Boltons

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/747761311358955521

I think it's disgusting personally. Kid needs to be re-educated.

I'll let you all decide if that's a euphemism or not for yourselves.

I think it's disgusting personally. Kid needs to be re-educated.

I'll let you all decide if that's a euphemism or not for yourselves.

I'm all in favor.

Right im off to an anti racism rally in the city now.

I have a feeling it might 'kick off' so i've got a stab vest under my hoody and a ressie in my daysack.

Call me paranoid but i've been in a riot or two already and i'd rather have them and not need them then need them and not have them.

Hopefully it will be a peaceful protest

I think you've said before you're in Nottingham - are you in any of these pics?

thanks for standing up for what's right.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1103985293043110/permalink/1105519979556308/

Forgive my ignorance on this matter, but could someone please answer a couple questions for me:

What benefit do people think would come from leaving?

What benefit do people think would come from staying?

If possible, I would appreciate something a little more specific than, "the economy will be bad."

Since staying would simply be the status quo, I'll answer in the form of what both parties thought would happen in the event of leaving:

• Leavers thought it would let them stop dirty foreigners entering the country and stealing their jobs by working harder than they do (and yes, by working for less money, which is a fair point given the UK has higher wages than many EU countries).
• Leavers thought it would save us money because the money we pay into the EU (which is in part a pooling of resources to help everybody and part redistribution from rich to poor, both good things in my book) could be spent on the NHS (National Health Service - our socialised healthcare).
• Leavers thought there'd be a bonfire of red tape (the red tape imposed by the EU)

• Remainers thought it would mean we'd send the same amount of money to the EU and obey the same red tape, but without have a vote on the rules
• Remainers thought it would mean multinationals move their HQs out of the UK
• Remainers thought it would mean the breakup of the UK as Scotland leaves in order to remain in the EU
• Remainers thought it would leave England with perpetual Tory governments, resulting in the destruction of human rights and the welfare state
• Remainers thought it would mean what's left of the UK scrapping any pretence at green policies
• Remainers thought it would be symbolic of a Britain turning it's back on progressive politics, on co-operation with friends, and towards nationalism, xenophobia and racism.

The big thing though is that should remain have won they didnt really need a 'plan', we would just continue to enjoy the most prosperous and safe period of european history since WWII. Most people wanted to fix any inequalities from within the system or accept that in a truly 'fair deal' both sides often feel hard done by.

In contrast the leave campaign was largely shackled to jingoism and lies that we would be 'free' (we're not we just no longer have a say in things for along time to come), that we'd have a better ecomomy (well its currently tanking and effecting the rest of the world with it) and that we could have tighter borders (we wont because the 'crossing over points' between Britain and EU member states will only be policed by us now...

So its a lose lose 'win' for 'leave'.

As an added bonus Britain is currently looking like Munich circa 1923 with the far right feeling 'britain is behind them' and attacking people who 'look foreign' in the street.

Here a disgusting verbal attack on an American citzen by a mindless english yob... he's too stupid to realise that America has *nothing* to do with the EU!

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-reaction-racist-abuse-video-11536158

I wish I had a real life HK-47...

Aw, at first I read that as "AK-47". As cool as it would be to have an HK (provided I could keep him from causing too much mayhem), I have to think that taking him to the range and just having him shoot the targets wouldn't be nearly so fun and relaxing as doing it myself.

The problem with any actions based on fears over immigration or refugees is that those problems are really just getting started. They're up, but the numbers of people fleeing tropical or sub-tropical zones of chaos is going to skyrocket in the next century. There is no getting around it. You either build walls and shoot everyone who tries to come over or you work on large scale plans to bring tens of millions of refugees into the first world every year for a century.

The "shoot everyone" option isn't really an option. It'd just mean war and chaos for your own country as well.

Nah we just shoot anyone who objects to the "shoot everyone" plan.

Also we can just lay some mines saves having to watch the border 24/7.

Right im off to an anti racism rally in the city now.

I have a feeling it might 'kick off' so i've got a stab vest under my hoody and a ressie in my daysack.

Call me paranoid but i've been in a riot or two already and i'd rather have them and not need them then need them and not have them.

Hopefully it will be a peaceful protest

I think you've said before you're in Nottingham - are you in any of these pics?

thanks for standing up for what's right.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1103985293043110/permalink/1105519979556308/

Im in the crowd, my friend Callie is there with red hair in the second pic.

I was a young protester in the poll tax riots, i also was in the bradford race riots alongside my asian brothers against the state that was persecuting them at the time.

I've seen 'peaceful protest' go to day sticks and cs gas in minutes.

I've also been trained in the British army for riots in northern ireland. I know how the security forces work, i was one of them.

So forgive me if i turn up to a 'peaceful protest' with a kevlar vest under my hoody, a 'ressie' (thats a 'respirator') in my rucksack (and one for my wife) and anti 'cut' riot gloves in my pockets.

Purely defenisve. nothing offensive but i have seen assmeblies end up in water cannons. I just dont want me or my wife to be choking our guts out or stabbed by a racist agitator. You can laugh, you can call me paranoid but i've been there, i used to be part of the anti Nazi league in the Uk and i've also trained to put down 'civil disorder' onthe other side. its not a fun place to be on either side.

Its foolish to hope for the best while not preparing for the worst.

In 100 % honesty mode, i've have happily brained a nazi had they shown their face but that part of me is why i left the anti nazi league and anti fascist action and similar groups... too many people using 'far left' as an excuse to hurt people they accused of being 'far right'

Si vis pacem, para bellum

edit: seriously, if you've *ever* been CS gassed before you'd take a ressie to public displays of dissent as well, its totally not fun.

The problem with any actions based on fears over immigration or refugees is that those problems are really just getting started. They're up, but the numbers of people fleeing tropical or sub-tropical zones of chaos is going to skyrocket in the next century. There is no getting around it. You either build walls and shoot everyone who tries to come over or you work on large scale plans to bring tens of millions of refugees into the first world every year for a century.

The "shoot everyone" option isn't really an option. It'd just mean war and chaos for your own country as well.

No no no, not walls, a Wall. After all, it's just the Wildings threatening us, right guys? (Love that you made this statement with your Jon Snow avatar...)

Edit: P.S. Gadge, good on you, sir. And you're not paranoid, you're prepared.

I've read that the vote was split on both age and wealth.. Yet the ballot itself doesn't seem to record any of that information (see below). How do they know the age and wealth of those who voted? Anyone from UK care to elaborate? Did the ballots identify the voters in some way?

Polling. Surveys done on possibly-representative samples of ~1000ish people each by independent companies after the vote. I'm usually dubious at best about surveys, but in this case, all of them have agreed in fairly close fashion, and with a yes/no question they're much more likely to be representative than for e.g. a general election, and even more likely to be accurate after the fact.

@Gadge: where do you obtain these items?

When i was in the army i worked in stores for a while while on light duties while i convalesced.

You 'acquire' a lot of extra kit in those roles.

Its also my job to do articles on 20th century military equipment so my office/kit room at home is wall to wall with the stuff

You can commercially buy ECBA body armour, S10 ressies and the like in the UK anyway.

Anything i had left over from the army that was illegal like CS gas pellets I disposed of as soon as I found them in my kit.

While you're supposed to do a 'declaration' after any exercise or detail in which you've been issued ammunition and hand it all back in the reality is that you always end up finding a smoke grenade or a schermully flare or a mini flare pen set stashed in some rucksack pocket you forgot about. Usually you can hand these in no questions asked when you find them but a lot of guys just dont bother and take em home. Its not supposed to happen but it does.

Likewise kit you're issued, you're supposed to hand in everything you were issued, They usually dont care if you keep some items of your uniform, its almost a given you're allowed to keep your beret and boots because they don't 're-issue' those to new recruits. Body armour is usually handed in as we had a shortage at one point, likewise helmets but I managed to hang onto mine.

You arrive well prepared Gadge!

Better safe than sorry

Now we're in for the long haul as not a single politician (UK or EU) wishes to step up and take a decission.

Meanwhile:

- The Flemish regional government continues with a plan to build andere extra highway arround Antwerp without EU-approved funding.

- The Belgian Federal minister of transportation wishes to spend 40million euro's on the train station of her tiny native village so it can have TGV and Eurostar connection.

-The Dutch nationalist party PVV is screaming The Netherlands should leave the EU too, despite the disastrous developments in the UK.

- Amsterdam is inviting anyone of the London financial market to move there.

It's the screaming far-right nationalists that I'm finding most worrying right now. The parallels with Europe in the late 20s are deeply disturbing.

You arrive well prepared Gadge!

Better safe than sorry

Now we're in for the long haul as not a single politician (UK or EU) wishes to step up and take a decission.

Meanwhile:

- The Flemish regional government continues with a plan to build andere extra highway arround Antwerp without EU-approved funding.

- The Belgian Federal minister of transportation wishes to spend 40million euro's on the train station of her tiny native village so it can have TGV and Eurostar connection.

-The Dutch nationalist party PVV is screaming The Netherlands should leave the EU too, despite the disastrous developments in the UK.

- Amsterdam is inviting anyone of the London financial market to move there.

Well, the PVV is always screaming and they might poll popular, but they're not that threatening in the long run. Don't forget though, that a lot of the effects the UK is now suffering is partly because of the way the EU is treating them. If more leave, that would change.

Not just Amsterdam, Paris as well and it's starting to look like a plan has formed:

UK will join EEA

Will get single market access

Will get less migration

Will lose Euro clearing (600 billion to 1 trillion)

Banks will lose passporting, will not be able to deal in the EU, forcing them to leave the City and move to Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam.

Read https://twitter.com/b_judahfor instance.

Also read:

http://tabbforum.com/news/banks-on-edge-over-uk-passporting-options

And the man who f*cked a few millions Britons now pulls out prematurely.

How did you type ≠?

I didn't even know that symbol existed - why do we always use != or <> in programming?

Magic.

Or as it's better known, Googling for "unequal symbol." I try to memorise the unicode commands as I learn them, but haven't yet committed this one to memory. Though it's probably one of my favourite mathematical symbols.

Maybe votes with far-reaching consequences should be weighted based on the fraction of life expectancy remaining.

That's hugely undemocratic though, Should we also do that for medicare? They're old they aren't gonna be around long enough to really benefit, that money could be used elsewhere.

Don't they, at least in America? In an episode of House they were choosing who to give an organ to and his age counted against one bloke.

As we all know, House is an highly-accurate portrayal of how the American political world functions; just like you can ask Doogie Howser, J.D. for his legal counsel and be confident you're getting the truth.

And the man who f*cked a few millions Britons now pulls out prematurely.

Don't worry, Murdoch has endorsed Gove.

We all know who to campaign against now. Not that the Tories have any public accountability in their leadership process unless the MPs can't come to an agreement, and then it's down to the ~150k membership of the party.

Oh, I'm personally not against a Brexit. I think the islands will rebound sooner rather than later. It is also a welcome shock to the EU which could well be its deathblow in the current form.

The financial exodus of London to the mainland is rather good news for me as well as there've been talks lately of moving some departments including mine to London but that now seems highly unlikely, meaning I get to keep my job.

And the man who f*cked a few millions Britons now pulls out prematurely.

Navigator-"That way, go!"

Crew-"Looks rocky."

Navigator-"Those aren't rocks, they're piles of cash."

Captain-"Ok, but this is a bad idea."

Ship-*crashes on rocks*

Captain-"Idiots." *leaves*

Crew-"You're the new captain, navigator."

Navigator-"Are you kidding? Who wants to be captain of a crashed ship?"

And the man who f*cked a few millions Britons now pulls out prematurely.

Navigator-"That way, go!"

Crew-"Looks rocky."

Navigator-"Those aren't rocks, they're piles of cash."

Captain-"Ok, but this is a bad idea."

Ship-*crashes on rocks*

Captain-"Idiots." *leaves*

Crew-"You're the new captain, navigator."

Navigator-"Are you kidding? Who wants to be captain of a crashed ship?"

Seems that Captain was unfit in the first place.

I smells like a setup to me at the moment.

You have Gove who this morning decided to stab Johnson in the back and Johnson accepts it and steps down without a fight and without even acknowledging it?

Or: Johnson is the Judasgoat who leads everyone into the direction of Brexit and then steps down as too tainted, falls on his sword to make way for Gove.

And the man who f*cked a few millions Britons now pulls out prematurely.

Navigator-"That way, go!"

Crew-"Looks rocky."

Navigator-"Those aren't rocks, they're piles of cash."

Captain-"Ok, but this is a bad idea."

Ship-*crashes on rocks*

Captain-"Idiots." *leaves*

Crew-"You're the new captain, navigator."

Navigator-"Are you kidding? Who wants to be captain of a crashed ship?"

Seems that Captain was unfit in the first place.

Oh, I'm personally not against a Brexit. I think the islands will rebound sooner rather than later. It is also a welcome shock to the EU which could well be its deathblow in the current form.

The financial exodus of London to the mainland is rather good news for me as well as there've been talks lately of moving some departments including mine to London but that now seems highly unlikely, meaning I get to keep my job.

Instead you get your job moved to Amsterdam though?

I'm disappointed by everyone calling for the EU's destruction. It may not be what it was, but the EU was founded as a force for peace after the most damaging war in human history.

My grandmother was an au pair in Germany up until 1938, for a Jewish family. She got out before the war, but the whole family was annihilated at Auschwitz. She couldn't ever talk to another German person again in her life.

But she voted to join the EU and supported its aims fully for the rest of her life, because she had seen what happens when Europe is not peaceful, and didn't want that to happen to her children or her grandchildren or her great grandchildren.

Sadly, her first great grandchild will probably grow up without it.

And we won't have any hope of bringing it back to what it should have been if we take our toys and sail off into the sunset - or is that a giant tyre fire, who knows?