So at about 1 hour and 2 minutes into the U.S. national finals, a Dengar vs. Soontir simultaneous attack situation occurs where Soontir has initiative, attacks, does enough damage to destroy Dengar and what happens next...

Dengar gets his R5-P8 (which really was never debated much), his payback attack (pilot ability which was heavily debated as counting as an opportunity to attack), and his normal attack before being removed from play!

I like it, and I think we have a final decision given that multiple FFG judges were watching! Thank you Jeff Berling for helping to settle the matter, albeit probably unintentionally.

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https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/223041-origins-2016-footage/

Edit - fat fingered R5-P8

That was always going to be the case; since Simultaneous Fire keeps Dengar around until his regular attack, so of course he's free to resolve all of those effects.

It only gets interesting if Dengar has initiative and shoots first, because Simultaneous Fire does nothing for him there...

That was always going to be the case; since Simultaneous Fire keeps Dengar around until his regular attack, so of course he's free to resolve all of those effects.

It only gets interesting if Dengar has initiative and shoots first, because Simultaneous Fire does nothing for him there...

Could not agree more, but I had an opposite ruling previously, so it was good to see it put to rest.

What's the case if it isn't simultaneous fire though.

Say dengar dies to omega leader.

R5-P8 and Payback attack?

What's the case if it isn't simultaneous fire though.

Say dengar dies to omega leader.

R5-P8 and Payback attack?

According to the rules, he's gone without a payback attack.

That was always going to be the case; since Simultaneous Fire keeps Dengar around until his regular attack, so of course he's free to resolve all of those effects.

But that's not what the rules actually say happens. The simultaneous attack rules state that a ship that shares a PS with the active ship that has not had an opportunity to attack is removed once it has had an opportunity to attack. Precedents have been set that out of activation attacks count as an opportunity to attack (Blinded Pilot + Corran Horn).

RRG, pg. 17:

I just received an email from Frank per this question which I submitted quite a while back (i.e. an FAQ prior to the latest FAQ with the timing chart). Dengar gets both under the new FAQ and consistent with the U.S. Nationals ruling!

"Hello Jeff,

In response to your rules question:

Rules Question:

I have a question concerning X-Wing and Dengar during the simultaneous attack rule, when Dengar does not have initiative and will be destroyed after attacking. My question is, does Dengar get his pilot ability attack (payback) and his normal attack, assuming the opponent is in arc? Or, does Dengar just get one attack before being destroyed and removed from play? I have received rulings both ways from TO's and it is not in the latest FAQ. Thanks! Jeff

As clarified in the latest FAQ in the Timing Chart for Performing an Attack, destroyed ships are not removed until the end of the attack (step 10), so his ability still triggers even if he is destroyed.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

[email protected]"

What's the case if it isn't simultaneous fire though.

Say dengar dies to omega leader.

R5-P8 and Payback attack?

IF OL is PS9 then so.

I just received an email from Frank per this question which I submitted quite a while back (i.e. an FAQ prior to the latest FAQ with the timing chart). Dengar gets both under the new FAQ and consistent with the U.S. Nationals ruling!

"Hello Jeff,

In response to your rules question:

Rules Question:

I have a question concerning X-Wing and Dengar during the simultaneous attack rule, when Dengar does not have initiative and will be destroyed after attacking. My question is, does Dengar get his pilot ability attack (payback) and his normal attack, assuming the opponent is in arc? Or, does Dengar just get one attack before being destroyed and removed from play? I have received rulings both ways from TO's and it is not in the latest FAQ. Thanks! Jeff

As clarified in the latest FAQ in the Timing Chart for Performing an Attack, destroyed ships are not removed until the end of the attack (step 10), so his ability still triggers even if he is destroyed.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

[email protected]"

I don;t think this actually answers the question - it's clear that Dengar's ability definitely has the option of triggering, what's not clear is whether he can stay on the board due to Simultaneous Fire if he choose to use it (or doesn't given the option).

Maybe a clearer phrasing of the question would be good.

What's the case if it isn't simultaneous fire though.

Say dengar dies to omega leader.

R5-P8 and Payback attack?

IF OL is PS9 then so.

Per the email above, definitely yes, to both.

It is answered, though Frank could have used more words. To break it down a bit more:

Step 8 is R5-P8.

Step 9 is payback pilot ability.

Step 10, second bullet is the normal attack as usual under simultaneous fire.

To answer the other question, if it isn't simultaneous fire, then you don't get the Step 10, second bullet, simultaneous fire attack - instead, the ship is removed per the first bullet.

We have a ruling at Nationals and an email from the designer confirming this as per the latest FAQ. Glad to have it answered!

Ah I see. Yep, that does clarify it.

And in the way I expected it to work, which is good for Dengar.

Ah I see. Yep, that does clarify it.

And in the way I expected it to work, which is good for Dengar.

That still doesn't answer it. Work through the chart. You get to the final box where ships are removed but may be kept alive by simultaneous fire. Dengar has had an opportunity to attack from his ability so would not be kept alive by simultaneous fire.

You get to step 9 which allows you to use Dengar's counter attack.

You go up to step 1 and work all the way back past step 9 for Dengar's attack that sends you over to 10"

"10. Remove destroyed ships

Working through the chart, his payback is in Step 9 though and is the use of a pilot ability, not his opportunity to attack. Step 10 is still where his opportunity to attack is resolved. Thus, the pilot ability is not considered the opportunity to attack under the simultaneous fire rule. That is consistent with the FFG email, new FAQ and ruling at Nationals.

Working through the chart, his payback is in Step 9 though and is the use of a pilot ability, not his opportunity to attack. Step 10 is still where his opportunity to attack is resolved. Thus, the pilot ability is not considered the opportunity to attack under the simultaneous fire rule. That is consistent with the FFG email, new FAQ and ruling at Nationals.

Go look at the FAQ for the TFA Blinded Pilot crit. Dengar's ability is clearly an opportunity to an attack. That's all the simultaneous fire rules are checking for. They do not differentiate between your normal in activation opportunity and any other.

The email does not seem to address the case of simultaneous fire at all. It only answers the question of whether or not Dengar's ability still triggers, which was clearly answered by the FAQ and the change to the combat sequence. It never mentions whether he gets his normal activation attack.

Frank's Reply:

So that quote thing didn't work like I meant it to.

Agree to disagree I guess. :-)