I think (as some other folks have said) Wulff on Interdictor with an engineering token will probably be awesome.

It's not gonna be as reliably good at defeating Demo as all that. First, the Demo can pack away a Nav token early in the game to prepare for the inevitable Slicer tool. Adding a tractor beam to that mix will definitely help, but tractors are a little harder to bring to bear before the Demo's first jump since they work before . A well flown Demo tends to not be in tractor range before it needs that speed 3+ET move. I'm not trying to poo-poo on everyone's parade, but I'm starting to see the flaws of the Slicer tool+tractor combo to try to counter Demo. It's not quite the 'screw you Demo' tool I originally foresaw.

Agree.

Certainly, it will make Demo's job harder. I often see Demo players navigating on turn 1 to make sure they're positioned right for turn 2... Slicer Tools takes that away. That's pretty much it, though: you just have to make sure you're positioned well off the bat, which isn't terribly difficult to do.

One possibility, though, is to fling Quantum Storm with tractors out at full speed right off the bat to stiffarm the Demo charge. Demo either doesn't close with QS immediately, buying the rest of the fleet time to deal with it, or it does, and QS gets the tractor + ST off. What the flotilla brings to the table in this case is that normally, if you do this with a CR90, it'll get popped right off the bat and you lose the activation. QS's scatter means it can (probably) weather the alpha strike from Demo.

I am seeing people put Sensor team on Demo now.....It makes it a very good Flotilla killer if you have APT's. Issue a concentrate fire order after your initial navigate token banked from round 1. Cancel a blank die from your front arc to get your accuracy and you just need to roll 1 other damage and a hit/crit black to kill the Flotilla. That being said its not a very cost effective use of your Demo and you lose ordinance experts re-rolls but you could get in behind the lines and wreck some flotillas.

I would be stoked if people around here started replacing Demo's OE with ST.

I have always liked Wulff on Demolisher to keep the nav command returning each use. Slicer tools & tractors may make it even more needed.

Veteran captain is a cheaper alternative. Bank a Nav token turn one and you have another if you really need it to activate engine techs for 2 turns in a row even if Slicer tools change your command dial to squadron.

Tractor Beams kills the token first. You have no choice there. So after you lose the token, then lose the dial, you are 1-2 turns out of no Nav.

It's not gonna be as reliably good at defeating Demo as all that. First, the Demo can pack away a Nav token early in the game to prepare for the inevitable Slicer tool. Adding a tractor beam to that mix will definitely help, but tractors are a little harder to bring to bear before the Demo's first jump since they work before . A well flown Demo tends to not be in tractor range before it needs that speed 3+ET move. I'm not trying to poo-poo on everyone's parade, but I'm starting to see the flaws of the Slicer tool+tractor combo to try to counter Demo. It's not quite the 'screw you Demo' tool I originally foresaw.

Agree.

Certainly, it will make Demo's job harder. I often see Demo players navigating on turn 1 to make sure they're positioned right for turn 2... Slicer Tools takes that away. That's pretty much it, though: you just have to make sure you're positioned well off the bat, which isn't terribly difficult to do.

One possibility, though, is to fling Quantum Storm with tractors out at full speed right off the bat to stiffarm the Demo charge. Demo either doesn't close with QS immediately, buying the rest of the fleet time to deal with it, or it does, and QS gets the tractor + ST off. What the flotilla brings to the table in this case is that normally, if you do this with a CR90, it'll get popped right off the bat and you lose the activation. QS's scatter means it can (probably) weather the alpha strike from Demo.

I am seeing people put Sensor team on Demo now.....It makes it a very good Flotilla killer if you have APT's. Issue a concentrate fire order after your initial navigate token banked from round 1. Cancel a blank die from your front arc to get your accuracy and you just need to roll 1 other damage and a hit/crit black to kill the Flotilla. That being said its not a very cost effective use of your Demo and you lose ordinance experts re-rolls but you could get in behind the lines and wreck some flotillas.

So no Ordnance Experts for a reroll! Vader might see an increase in a build like that.

Honestly, I expect to see some people even put a Slicer tool ship in Hyperspace Assault so that they can lock people down.

Oh that's dirty, didn't think about that. Very nice!

I have always liked Wulff on Demolisher to keep the nav command returning each use. Slicer tools & tractors may make it even more needed.

Veteran captain is a cheaper alternative. Bank a Nav token turn one and you have another if you really need it to activate engine techs for 2 turns in a row even if Slicer tools change your command dial to squadron.

Tractor Beams kills the token first. You have no choice there. So after you lose the token, then lose the dial, you are 1-2 turns out of no Nav.

It's not gonna be as reliably good at defeating Demo as all that. First, the Demo can pack away a Nav token early in the game to prepare for the inevitable Slicer tool. Adding a tractor beam to that mix will definitely help, but tractors are a little harder to bring to bear before the Demo's first jump since they work before . A well flown Demo tends to not be in tractor range before it needs that speed 3+ET move. I'm not trying to poo-poo on everyone's parade, but I'm starting to see the flaws of the Slicer tool+tractor combo to try to counter Demo. It's not quite the 'screw you Demo' tool I originally foresaw.

Agree.

Certainly, it will make Demo's job harder. I often see Demo players navigating on turn 1 to make sure they're positioned right for turn 2... Slicer Tools takes that away. That's pretty much it, though: you just have to make sure you're positioned well off the bat, which isn't terribly difficult to do.

One possibility, though, is to fling Quantum Storm with tractors out at full speed right off the bat to stiffarm the Demo charge. Demo either doesn't close with QS immediately, buying the rest of the fleet time to deal with it, or it does, and QS gets the tractor + ST off. What the flotilla brings to the table in this case is that normally, if you do this with a CR90, it'll get popped right off the bat and you lose the activation. QS's scatter means it can (probably) weather the alpha strike from Demo.

I am seeing people put Sensor team on Demo now.....It makes it a very good Flotilla killer if you have APT's. Issue a concentrate fire order after your initial navigate token banked from round 1. Cancel a blank die from your front arc to get your accuracy and you just need to roll 1 other damage and a hit/crit black to kill the Flotilla. That being said its not a very cost effective use of your Demo and you lose ordinance experts re-rolls but you could get in behind the lines and wreck some flotillas.

So no Ordnance Experts for a reroll! Vader might see an increase in a build like that.

but then you have to leave screed at home and he's a guaranteed APT which is much more important than that re-roll. At least in my limited experience with DeMSUs the raider APTs are what add that nasty little bite, One of the few times I played a DMSU i managed to kill an AFMK2 with nothing but a couple of raiders side and rear arcs and 1 front arc shot just because you can guarantee a hull hit so all you need are a couple of lucky Structural crits and the tiny raiders can dismantle an AF.

The guy I was playing was stunned, he couldn't believe he lost the ship to mostly crappy side arcs of badly positioned raiders...

Nav officer and ozzel say hello

I have always liked Wulff on Demolisher to keep the nav command returning each use. Slicer tools & tractors may make it even more needed.

Veteran captain is a cheaper alternative. Bank a Nav token turn one and you have another if you really need it to activate engine techs for 2 turns in a row even if Slicer tools change your command dial to squadron.

Tractor Beams kills the token first. You have no choice there. So after you lose the token, then lose the dial, you are 1-2 turns out of no Nav.

It's not gonna be as reliably good at defeating Demo as all that. First, the Demo can pack away a Nav token early in the game to prepare for the inevitable Slicer tool. Adding a tractor beam to that mix will definitely help, but tractors are a little harder to bring to bear before the Demo's first jump since they work before . A well flown Demo tends to not be in tractor range before it needs that speed 3+ET move. I'm not trying to poo-poo on everyone's parade, but I'm starting to see the flaws of the Slicer tool+tractor combo to try to counter Demo. It's not quite the 'screw you Demo' tool I originally foresaw.

Agree.

Certainly, it will make Demo's job harder. I often see Demo players navigating on turn 1 to make sure they're positioned right for turn 2... Slicer Tools takes that away. That's pretty much it, though: you just have to make sure you're positioned well off the bat, which isn't terribly difficult to do.

One possibility, though, is to fling Quantum Storm with tractors out at full speed right off the bat to stiffarm the Demo charge. Demo either doesn't close with QS immediately, buying the rest of the fleet time to deal with it, or it does, and QS gets the tractor + ST off. What the flotilla brings to the table in this case is that normally, if you do this with a CR90, it'll get popped right off the bat and you lose the activation. QS's scatter means it can (probably) weather the alpha strike from Demo.

I am seeing people put Sensor team on Demo now.....It makes it a very good Flotilla killer if you have APT's. Issue a concentrate fire order after your initial navigate token banked from round 1. Cancel a blank die from your front arc to get your accuracy and you just need to roll 1 other damage and a hit/crit black to kill the Flotilla. That being said its not a very cost effective use of your Demo and you lose ordinance experts re-rolls but you could get in behind the lines and wreck some flotillas.

So no Ordnance Experts for a reroll! Vader might see an increase in a build like that.

but then you have to leave screed at home and he's a guaranteed APT which is much more important than that re-roll. At least in my limited experience with DeMSUs the raider APTs are what add that nasty little bite, One of the few times I played a DMSU i managed to kill an AFMK2 with nothing but a couple of raiders side and rear arcs and 1 front arc shot just because you can guarantee a hull hit so all you need are a couple of lucky Structural crits and the tiny raiders can dismantle an AF.

The guy I was playing was stunned, he couldn't believe he lost the ship to mostly crappy side arcs of badly positioned raiders...

So you lose 2 dice for a single potential to kill a 30 point ship. Well, I do not mind that at all.

Doing this will regulate Demolisher to flotilla hunting which, at that point makes him not scary.

yeah that's not it at all. you are talking about "bringing vader" due to losing out on OE on demo, but the impact of screed across all those little raiders with APT is significant. Sure, the Vader reroll might get you that crit but I have definitely had it happen where the initial roll and the OE roll has come up with no black crits, both on raiders and on demo, and when a good deal of your effectiveness comes from the APT proc having screed as a last-ditch guarantee is a real difference maker. So yeah you gimp demo a bit to pre-empt flotillas but at least you don't potentially gimp the whole fleet.

All in all, I think its generally a good thing as it removes some of the absoluteness of the viability of certain maximizations that make DeMSU deadly, and this is a good thing.

Go right ahead. If your focus is on the Flotilla, the Flotilla wins.

Not sure if this has been addressed already, but can Quantum Storm use Slicer Tools either after its initial move, or after the additional speed one maneuver?

(thinking it's like Demo and engine techs in this regard)

The wording on Slicer Tools is "After you execute a maneuver"

This is the same as Demolisher. "After you execute a maneuver".

Quantum Storm is "After you execute a maneuver,"

Ergo, you can use it after your standard maneuver, or after your Quantum Storm Maneuver

And if it had a Support Team Slot (Which it doesn't)... You could even use it after BOTH.... As their triggering effect is the same time...

What I find so fascinating on these boards is how new ways to use toys pretty much always starts with Rebel fleet usage. It's like Imperial admirals don't care about the latest tricks.

I don't have enough experience to know if it's the threads I read or that Imperials don't think (don't need to think?) much beyond Rhymer and Demolisher. It's like the Imperial fleet is a two trick pony and everything revolves around how you spend your points after adding Demolisher and or a Rhymerball. I really find it disheartening.

Wait until Wave 4.

The ability to Control the Battlefield is (not) insignificant. (Even when compared to the force).

Seriously, I think its mostly because the Imperials have always been considered "straightforward". And "straightforward" means yhou need to find tricky things on the other side.

The Liberty will be suprisingly straightforward for the Rebels. As straightforward as the Imperials have been for the Imperials thusfar!

But the Interdictor will be where the "how do we get all of the tricks out of this." Wave for the Imperials.

I guess its just the feeling behind it all.

The Imperials know what they're doing, and they've got what they have to do it.

They started Baseline, and then Improved in 3 different Directions. (Victory -> ISD. + Gladiator, +Rhymer)

Whereas the Rebels are constantly playing Catchup. As a semi-organised and ragtag group of 'freedom fighters' would be.

What I find so fascinating on these boards is how new ways to use toys pretty much always starts with Rebel fleet usage. It's like Imperial admirals don't care about the latest tricks.

I don't have enough experience to know if it's the threads I read or that Imperials don't think (don't need to think?) much beyond Rhymer and Demolisher. It's like the Imperial fleet is a two trick pony and everything revolves around how you spend your points after adding Demolisher and or a Rhymerball. I really find it disheartening.

nah, it's just that the GR-75 is cheaper and has Bright Hope to facilitate this strategy

Empire gets Suppressor to sorta aid in this style of play (bit risky due to price), but it also gets Vector and incredibly easy synergy with Grand Moff Widow'speak to turn them into stupidly cheap effectively Squadron 3 ships

most likely, the first couple of Gonzatis you'll see will be under him and almost certainly involving Rhymer, because Bomber Command Center with Rhymer is just nuts

I foresee a lot of fireballs or rhymer balls (with just bombers, sans Vector) in the future, especially because they're easily the empire's most effective (perhaps only) means of "long range" firepower

Nav officer and ozzel say hello

I guess I am going to have to swap out Montferrat for Nav officer to combat Slicer Tools on my Demo.

What I find so fascinating on these boards is how new ways to use toys pretty much always starts with Rebel fleet usage. It's like Imperial admirals don't care about the latest tricks.

I don't have enough experience to know if it's the threads I read or that Imperials don't think (don't need to think?) much beyond Rhymer and Demolisher. It's like the Imperial fleet is a two trick pony and everything revolves around how you spend your points after adding Demolisher and or a Rhymerball. I really find it disheartening.

The last couple of weeks Ive been playing two lists - rebels with home one/AF2/2xTRC90 with Ackbar, and Imperials - 2 x ISD1 and 2 x Raider plus token fighters Ozzell.

Ive actually found without Rhymer and Demo, Imperials can get really HARD to play with against people that know what they are doing. The geometry of always going forward and not being able to turn your main guns except in great lazy arcs is completely different to the MC80 and AFs ability to just drift along at speed 1 and adjust their side arc back and forth to keep the death box correctly aligned. The Home One list has been much more successful.

I think this is why Demo and Rhymer are in the game - they add enough disruption that the Imperials have some nasty tricks to mix things up.

The geometry of always going forward and not being able to turn your main guns except in great lazy arcs

Navigate!

My slicer tools and tractor beams kept an Admonition locked down to speed 1 for most of a game and never had a navigate except due to leia. They do a LOT of work

The wording on Slicer Tools is "After you execute a maneuver"

This is the same as Demolisher. "After you execute a maneuver".

Quantum Storm is "After you execute a maneuver,"

Ergo, you can use it after your standard maneuver, or after your Quantum Storm Maneuver

And if it had a Support Team Slot (Which it doesn't)... You could even use it after BOTH.... As their triggering effect is the same time...

Technically, because Slicer tools and Quantum storm have the same timing, you could go Slicer Tools-Quantum Storm-slicer tools again. Because you get to choose the order of effects with same timing, and QS gives a separate maneuver. That's what I thought anyways, but slicer tools actually gets exhausted upon use :'(

Oh the fun one could have. But a last/first activation is close to the same thing.

What I find so fascinating on these boards is how new ways to use toys pretty much always starts with Rebel fleet usage. It's like Imperial admirals don't care about the latest tricks.

I don't have enough experience to know if it's the threads I read or that Imperials don't think (don't need to think?) much beyond Rhymer and Demolisher. It's like the Imperial fleet is a two trick pony and everything revolves around how you spend your points after adding Demolisher and or a Rhymerball. I really find it disheartening.

I grok what you are saying, tho as an imperial favoring player, I do find there are other subtile successful imperial combos that aren't Demo or Rhymer based.

I find it interesting that people are generally up to speed on how to best dispatch Demo and/or Rhymer so turning to other pages in the Imperial playbook isn't a bad idea.

Still, wave 3/4 I think will break plenty of molds and lead to experimentation. I do wonder how current meta fleet builds will fair against the new...