I'm sure this question has been answered - buried deep within a thread somewhere - but my search-fu only reveals the answer up to a point (and it is a very important point).

Here's the tl;dr version: Does damage from a single attack - enough to exceed the wound share of a minion several times over - kill multiple minions of a single group? What if they exceed the damage threshold once and achieve a crit in a single attack? One minion or two?

Has this been answered definitively?

Here's a bit more (in case I sound like an idiot):

The answer in both cases is, "Yes."

Remember, a round can be up to a minute long, and your roll is not an attack , it's a Combat Check . What's the difference? An attack is one swing of the sword, or pull of the trigger. A Combat Check is the entirety of your attempt to wreck face during that potentially-a-minute-long timeframe.

I don't know about you, but last time I watched Jackie Chan, he took out nearly a dozen mooks in a minute.

As an example, your good friend, Saber-Swinging Fool (SSF) dives into a crowd of 10 Stormtroopers and makes a Lightsaber combat check. SSF rolls very well, with 5 successes and 3 advantage, meaning 15 damage and a crit.

The Troopers have a wound threshold of 5 each, so a total wound threshold of 50 for the group. SSF dealt 10 damage +5 damage with his hit and successes, and he also activates a Critical Injury by spending one advantage. The total damage dealt to the Stormtroopers is 20; enough to incapacitate 3 Troopers. So, narratively, as SSF dives in, his first swing decapitates trooper number one; he dodges and weaves between them, keeping their blasters pointed at each other for protection, and skewers trooper number two right through the heart. He withdraws his lightsaber, and sweeps it across, dis-arming Trooper #3 (it was his birthday, too ...) and throws him across the room with a blast of Force (narrative flair, no actual Force dice were rolled in the making of this combat check). And all the while, his flashing saber nicked and cut at a bunch of the others, leaving them hurting and pained, but not incapacitated.

"But wait," I hear you say, "why only three Stormtroopers? He dealt 20 damage! That should be four!" Hold on now, you need to remember that a character is incapacitated when they are ABOVE their wound threshold. Trooper 1 was eliminated when the group had taken 6 wounds (above 5), Trooper 2 was eliminated when the group had taken 11 (above 10), Trooper 3 ("Happy birthday to me..." *sniff*) was eliminated at 16 wounds, and Trooper 4 will be eliminated at 21, and so on.

"Okay, I get that, but wait again! " What is it this time? "Our pal SSF had three advantage and a critical rating of 1; couldn't he inflict 10 more damage and kill 2 more Troopers? Is he a slacker or something?" Well no, not at all! He's only doing his best! Remember that you can inflict only a single Critical Injury per combat check. Yes, SSF could activate his lightsaber's critical rating twice more, and add +10 to the Critical Injury result per extra activation. But since these are minions, there's no reason for him to do so; he's not rolling a Critical Injury result, he's just incapacitating them straight away. He has to choose something else to do with his 2 extra advantage. And he better decide quick, Troopers 4-10 are, understandably, a little cross with him...

I'm not really arguing the logic of "yes" or "no" on the subject. So I won't disagree with any of your examples. I'm just wondering if there has been a definitive "yes" or "no."

In other words, I know the math of it all. There has just never been (to my knowledge) a statement regarding the effects of a single attack on minions.

I'm away from my books right now so I can't quote chapter and verse, but I know it's in there, and I'm sure the devs have commented on it, too.

I'm not really arguing the logic of "yes" or "no" on the subject. So I won't disagree with any of your examples. I'm just wondering if there has been a definitive "yes" or "no."

Per RAW, yes, multiple minions can be taken out by a single combat check.

Trust me: I'm absolutely fine if that is indeed RAW, but I've been up and down the books and have been unable to find any statement to address that specifically. So a page reference would be appreciated (if you have the time).

Remember, a round can be up to a minute long, and your roll is not an attack , it's a Combat Check . What's the difference? An attack is one swing of the sword, or pull of the trigger. A Combat Check is the entirety of your attempt to wreck face during that potentially-a-minute-long timeframe.

That's a lovely way to e'splain it.

Trust me: I'm absolutely fine if that is indeed RAW, but I've been up and down the books and have been unable to find any statement to address that specifically. So a page reference would be appreciated (if you have the time).

EotE CRB Page 390 under the subject Minions can fight as a group.

"Each time any member of the group suffers wounds, the wounds are applied to the group's wound threshold. Individual members are defeated one at a time, each time the total wounds suffered exceeds that group member's share of the wound threshold."

Each minion in a group adds up the total wound threshold,

each time a minions personal threshold is exceeded he dies.

This can happen mutiple times in one combat check.

And thinks can get really messy... once our SSF get´ s a grip on a pair of paired lightsabers.

an example that happen just this friday:

a minion group of 10 Stormies; good old SSF jumps in... 6 + 4 + 1 Resullting in 16 Dmage x2(activating pair) = 32 +2 x crit (each hit can generate one of them) = 8 Dead Stormies... now imagine he would have talents like deadly precission, anatomie lesson, softspot and so on...

Trust me: I'm absolutely fine if that is indeed RAW, but I've been up and down the books and have been unable to find any statement to address that specifically. So a page reference would be appreciated (if you have the time).

EotE CRB Page 390 under the subject Minions can fight as a group.

"Each time any member of the group suffers wounds, the wounds are applied to the group's wound threshold. Individual members are defeated one at a time, each time the total wounds suffered exceeds that group member's share of the wound threshold."

Yes. I wouldn't have brought this up if I hadn't read the main entry on the subject (at least). But there is ambiguity in that entry. That can easily be interpreted as being from a single attack, over a series of consecutive attacks, or both.

This can happen mutiple times in one combat check.

That's the simple line that has been missing from all explanations and examples on the subject.

To be clear, I play it as a single attack can take out multiple minions. And, yes, I am aware that it is my game and I can play it how I like. I'm just curious if this has ever been officially defined.

I think what people are trying to drive at is there doesn't need to be any officially defined explanation because the RAW clearly states the rule. I think any ambiguity is someone trying to read into things too deeply.

Also, you are playing it correctly.

The gunslinger in our group took out 5 minions in two shots (two-weapon fighting and tricked out blasters) last week with a single combat check. That is how the rule is intended to work.

I think what people are trying to drive at is there doesn't need to be any officially defined explanation because the RAW clearly states the rule. I think any ambiguity is someone trying to read into things too deeply.

I know there doesn't need to be an official answer. That's why it is curiosity rather than a burning need. But it seems my question has been answered. It has not been officially defined.

I think what people are trying to drive at is there doesn't need to be any officially defined explanation because the RAW clearly states the rule. I think any ambiguity is someone trying to read into things too deeply.

I know there doesn't need to be an official answer. That's why it is curiosity rather than a burning need. But it seems my question has been answered. It has not been officially defined.

If only one minion could be defeated in an attack then there's no need for any of that text. The whole "pool" concept wouldn't do anything.

Look at it the opposite way; how would the "pool" work if only one minion at a time could be defeated in an attack? I can't see how it could.

This is like saying that you're not sure if there's an elephant in a toaster oven because nobody explicitly says there isn't one in there. In reality you know there isn't an elephant in there because it can't fit. No need to point out the obvious.

I think what people are trying to drive at is there doesn't need to be any officially defined explanation because the RAW clearly states the rule. I think any ambiguity is someone trying to read into things too deeply.

I know there doesn't need to be an official answer. That's why it is curiosity rather than a burning need. But it seems my question has been answered. It has not been officially defined.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but what you're asking for is an entry that plainly states something like "minions take damage as a group and are defeated whenever that minion's wound threshold would be exceeded, even in a single combat check". Also forgive me if I come off as rude in text form, I assure you I mean to help.

I think it can reasonably be extrapolated from the entry I partially quoted yesterday that that is exactly what the book states, just not in necessarily in the exact words you are wanting it to say.

How can I say this?

Let's take a look further at what the entry on page 390 actually says.

"The minion group has a single wound threshold, shared by all members of the group. This wound threshold is equal to the sum of the wound threshold of every member of the group."

Okay so they pool their wounds together into a single target. Simplifies combat.

"Each time any member of the group suffers wounds, the wounds are applied to the group's wound threshold."

Okay so again, single target, pooled wound threshold between the members. This also includes the that each successful combat check would apply soak only once rather than for each individual minion, because soak applies once for each combat check made. Otherwise, 4 stormtroopers wouldn't ever get defeated with a combined soak of 20 without players using a dang missile tube, a thermal detonator or some other overly powerful means.

"Individual members of the group are defeated one at a time, each time the total wounds suffered exceeds that group member's share of the wound threshold."

Alright, so Let's say I attack this group of 4 Stormtroopers. With a soak of 5 and a group wound threshold of 20, I manage to deal 7 wounds to the group after applying soak. That's one more than needed to defeat one of the Stormtroopers in the group. What do I do with the remaining wounds? According to the book it would apply those extra wounds to the group wound threshold. Okay so now we're looking at a group of 3 stormtroopers with a group wound threshold of 7/20.

So if that scenario works, in which the remainder of wounds is still applied to the group, then this scenario should work as well:

Same group of 4 stormtroopers, only this time I manage to deal 11 damage after applying their soak. That's enough to defeat 2 of the 4 stormtroopers!

Oh but the book says that minions are defeated one at a time. It also says in the same sentence that individual members are defeated once the group suffers wounds over their threshold. Just in case, I look up synonyms for the phrase "one at a time" and find the word "Individually". Okay so that means that each individual in the group has to be defeated for the group to be defeated. That makes logical sense but still, which is the correct choice?

Would you:

A. Apply all the wounds suffered to a single minion in the group, because minions are "defeated one at a time" and ignore the remainder of wounds suffered (which has no precedent in this system to ever ignore wounds unless in the case of reaching twice a PC/Rival/Nemeses' threshold in wounds, which isn't something even considered for Minions),

or

B. Apply the wounds to the group threshold as written, resulting in 2 Stormtroopers being defeated due to the group wounds exceeding their individual threshold and resulting in a group of 2 undefeated Stormtroopers at 11/20 wounds.

Surely B is the correct choice since there is precedence for it in all the book's examples. Just to be sure, let's examine some FFG Developer answered questions from one of the pinned posts on the forum. That might give better insight into the matter.

" How does blast damage work against minions?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

How blast damage works against minion groups depends on whether the minions are engaged with each other or not. If a group of minions is spread out across a room, and I throw a grenade at one, then the Blast quality cannot affect the group. In that case, the grenade deals direct damage to the minion group's combined wound threshold (if it deals 9 damage, and the minion has a soak of 3 and wound threshold of 4, then one minion drops, and the group still has two additional damage. This may represent random flying shrapnel, but could just as easily represent the stress of seeing a comrade killed).

If multiple minions are engaged with each other, then the damage from the Blast quality can do damage to as many additional minions as are engaged with the first minion. (Grenade hits a three minion group who are all engaged with each other. The grenade deals 9 damage, plus 7 blast damage, against the same minions as described earlier. Since the blast damage hits each individual separately, they apply their soak to it in every case, but the damage is still enough to wipe out the entire minion group with 2 damage left over).

All in all, grenades are a great way to take out tight clusters of faceless mooks; as they should be."

I bolded the section that shows a single combat check (in this case, a thrown frag grenade) can result in an entire minion group being defeated. Yes, It required the Blast quality to be activated to accomplish this and yes the Blast itself has to apply to each minion separately (because they are all Individuals and Blast applies to each engaged Individual) but that doesn't exclude the fact that each individual minion in the group was defeated in a single combat check.

I hope this helps show that RAW and RAI both state that multiple minions in a group can be defeated in a single combat check. You have been ruling it correctly and it is written out the same, just maybe not with the terminology you are looking for.

I think I see the confusion. The "minions are defeated one at a time" bit is to tell the GM when to downrank minion groups when they take damage. It's not literally saying only one can be defeated per combat check. Consider a minion group of 4 with WT 20 takes 15 damage (after soak). If that line wasn't there, the GM could say "you greatly injure many of them, however none are defeated by your attacks" (read: spread the damage out between all the minions) and roll with a full dice pool next turn.

Now consider the same scenario but taking the line to also mean only one can be defeated per combat check. The first minion goes down when the group takes 6 of the damage, but what about the other 9 damage? It's enough that it should kill another minion, but it can't under this interpretation. It doesn't require a clairification because this interpretation doesn't make sense.

Personally, I think it makes the game more challenging if you do limit damage to just one minion per combat check. It also makes things like blast, and auto-fire more powerful and desirable in my opinion. But to answer the question, according to RAW you deal damage to a "minion group" not an individual minion.

That said, you can't apply multiple crits to take out multiple minions.

Personally, I think it makes the game more challenging if you do limit damage to just one minion per combat check. It also makes things like blast, and auto-fire more powerful and desirable in my opinion. But to answer the question, according to RAW you deal damage to a "minion group" not an individual minion.

That said, you can't apply multiple crits to take out multiple minions.

While Newtons Law goes flying through the window, in comes the Law of the Inverse Ninja (or stormtrooper) which states that the effectiveness, intelligence and strength of an oppoent goes up or down in inverse proportion to the number of them there are. In the Arrow TV series when the arrow faces one or two League of Assassin members he will have a hard time, face 20 and each will have the intelligence and sense of fairness to attack one at a time and with the effectiveness of a four letter insect with the letter g and ending in nat.

Personally, I think it makes the game more challenging if you do limit damage to just one minion per combat check. It also makes things like blast, and auto-fire more powerful and desirable in my opinion. But to answer the question, according to RAW you deal damage to a "minion group" not an individual minion.

That said, you can't apply multiple crits to take out multiple minions.

Id have to disagree , while you might be erring on the side of realism, and also following the one attack per combat check mind set, the characters are supposed to be cinematic heroes. How many mooks does Jackie Chan or Jet Li take out in one round of fighting, Stallone, Arnie, or any other 80s action hero you care to mention. This is what we aim for and one of the first rules of an action film is that reality goes out the window, when you shoot someone they fly through the open window (Newtons Laws say the same thing should happen to you in the opposite direction, a bullet or laser blast does carry enough kinetic energy to do this).

While Newtons Law goes flying through the window, in comes the Law of the Inverse Ninja (or stormtrooper) which states that the effectiveness, intelligence and strength of an oppoent goes up or down in inverse proportion to the number of them there are. In the Arrow TV series when the arrow faces one or two League of Assassin members he will have a hard time, face 20 and each will have the intelligence and sense of fairness to attack one at a time and with the effectiveness of a four letter insect with the letter g and ending in nat.

It isn't even about realism, it just about making the game more challenging for the PCs. I will say it does cut down on the cinematic flavor that this game does a great job of portraying. I don't always do it, I've run both with RAW and with the "one minion per check", and the latter is much more dramatic and really forces the players to plan their tactics better. I'm also the kind of GM who will, say that if there is only half a minion group left in an encounter, they give up and run away. No sense in dragging the game down just to clean up a few minions.

Personally, I think it makes the game more challenging if you do limit damage to just one minion per combat check. It also makes things like blast, and auto-fire more powerful and desirable in my opinion. But to answer the question, according to RAW you deal damage to a "minion group" not an individual minion.

That said, you can't apply multiple crits to take out multiple minions.

Id have to disagree , while you might be erring on the side of realism, and also following the one attack per combat check mind set, the characters are supposed to be cinematic heroes. How many mooks does Jackie Chan or Jet Li take out in one round of fighting, Stallone, Arnie, or any other 80s action hero you care to mention. This is what we aim for and one of the first rules of an action film is that reality goes out the window, when you shoot someone they fly through the open window (Newtons Laws say the same thing should happen to you in the opposite direction, a bullet or laser blast does carry enough kinetic energy to do this).

While Newtons Law goes flying through the window, in comes the Law of the Inverse Ninja (or stormtrooper) which states that the effectiveness, intelligence and strength of an oppoent goes up or down in inverse proportion to the number of them there are. In the Arrow TV series when the arrow faces one or two League of Assassin members he will have a hard time, face 20 and each will have the intelligence and sense of fairness to attack one at a time and with the effectiveness of a four letter insect with the letter g and ending in nat.

It isn't even about realism, it just about making the game more challenging for the PCs. I will say it does cut down on the cinematic flavor that this game does a great job of portraying. I don't always do it, I've run both with RAW and with the "one minion per check", and the latter is much more dramatic and really forces the players to plan their tactics better. I'm also the kind of GM who will, say that if there is only half a minion group left in an encounter, they give up and run away. No sense in dragging the game down just to clean up a few minions.

I feel like you can just replace minions with rivals when the combat starts to become too easy for PC's rather than counter the game's rules. Heck, give Minions more powerful weapons if you like, make a single large group of minions to intimidate players, etc.

'Course, every GM gets to run things how they like and I'm not knocking anyone's way of running their games. The rules do allow one to easily up the deadliness of combat encounters without the need to increase the amount of time they take by giving the enemies bigger guns than usual rather than increasing their numbers. The threat is increased without a drawn out combat.

Sounds like you're just using a modified version of the squad rules if you do this. Squad rules basically say that every time the PCs get a good hit on a Rival/Nemesis, the said BBEG can sack one of the minion mooks he's with to ignore the attack. Fundamentally that's what you're doing in this case.

If the challenge is lacking wnd as the pcs dmg out becomes more consistent or increases you just throw a few more mooks on the fire , after all this is why we have winter.

Increasing a minion group from 3 or 4 to 6 or 7 increases their dmg output considerably and will make any unprepared PC wish he had put more xp into defensive talents when he faces a 5 or 6 die dice pool.

Personally, I think it makes the game more challenging if you do limit damage to just one minion per combat check. It also makes things like blast, and auto-fire more powerful and desirable in my opinion. But to answer the question, according to RAW you deal damage to a "minion group" not an individual minion.

That said, you can't apply multiple crits to take out multiple minions.

Id have to disagree , while you might be erring on the side of realism, and also following the one attack per combat check mind set, the characters are supposed to be cinematic heroes. How many mooks does Jackie Chan or Jet Li take out in one round of fighting, Stallone, Arnie, or any other 80s action hero you care to mention. This is what we aim for and one of the first rules of an action film is that reality goes out the window, when you shoot someone they fly through the open window (Newtons Laws say the same thing should happen to you in the opposite direction, a bullet or laser blast does carry enough kinetic energy to do this).

While Newtons Law goes flying through the window, in comes the Law of the Inverse Ninja (or stormtrooper) which states that the effectiveness, intelligence and strength of an oppoent goes up or down in inverse proportion to the number of them there are. In the Arrow TV series when the arrow faces one or two League of Assassin members he will have a hard time, face 20 and each will have the intelligence and sense of fairness to attack one at a time and with the effectiveness of a four letter insect with the letter g and ending in nat.

It isn't even about realism, it just about making the game more challenging for the PCs. I will say it does cut down on the cinematic flavor that this game does a great job of portraying. I don't always do it, I've run both with RAW and with the "one minion per check", and the latter is much more dramatic and really forces the players to plan their tactics better. I'm also the kind of GM who will, say that if there is only half a minion group left in an encounter, they give up and run away. No sense in dragging the game down just to clean up a few minions.

It can drag down both ways though. If your minions have say 2 soak and 2 wounds, then a well-rolled hit could drop several of them. But if you make it so that it can't then all that means is that when a player deals 8 damage, half of it just poofs away. This doesn't really make it harder, it makes it longer . Taking more time can increase challenge, but only when there is a time constraint, why not simply throw more minions at them? Or better minions? Or full-blown individual NPCs? More challenge typically results from more challenging obstacles. Things that are harder to hit, hit harder or fight smarter. Challenge rarely results from consuming more time.

If you want to give the minions a bit of an edge against powerful characters without rewriting rules, consider giving them Linked .

If you want to give the minions a bit of an edge against powerful characters without rewriting rules, consider giving them Linked .

Isn't it easier to just give the badguys good equipment and use tactics than introduce extra rules? Just asking. I always consider if there's a way to do things better within the rules before going to houserule.