There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it. I just prefer players play with lists they have constructed fully on their own. It's not a realistic expectation, but something I like to see.What's wrong with that?On an indirectly related note, are we getting to the competitive point that we are taking the MtG approach of "teams" which show to tournaments running the same list/deck which they have put in heavy play testing with? Seems Nova (or at least the Howard brothers), Jeff's crew, Mynock, and so on seem to be taking this approach now.
Not a fan of the game turning that way, but I assume it was inevitable.
Dengar/manaroo
Well as a member of "Jeff's crew" we don't always run the same thing and actually we usually run something different. Plus it wasn't like we all saw his list was like yep that's too good I'm running it too. It came together with help of multiple people. Plus each of us running it have different play styles so we can really find some of the best strategies with certain match ups. Also some of our members are imperial or rebel for life and won't ever run anything else lol. I like team x wing.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it. I just prefer players play with lists they have constructed fully on their own. It's not a realistic expectation, but something I like to see.
What's wrong with that?On an indirectly related note, are we getting to the competitive point that we are taking the MtG approach of "teams" which show to tournaments running the same list/deck which they have put in heavy play testing with? Seems Nova (or at least the Howard brothers), Jeff's crew, Mynock, and so on seem to be taking this approach now.
Not a fan of the game turning that way, but I assume it was inevitable.
Ya don't get me wrong. I don't think that it is a cheap tactic or poor sportsmanship or anything. I just personally, totally individually, for selfish reasons, enjoy players playing lists they have constructed fully on their own. I find it interesting to see what people come up with on their own, and when players bring these home brewed lists to tourneys, the likelihood of list diversity is higher. Like I said, team building is pretty much inevitable and likely the future if X-wing continues to grow in popularity. So all in all, my own selfish desires are my only fuel here.
Is countermeasure so important in the list? Wouldn't an engine upgrade (and a different approach to the match, ie no use of zuckuss) be more helpful agaisnt triple jumps?
If you're considering dropping Zuckuss, then you're missing the entire point of this list.
Countermeasures isn't just an extra agility, it's probably multiple agility because you're going to be shot at by multiple things. With your double focus tokens/Glitterstim/infinite focus if you're using the Overclocked version that extra evade die is probably going to block an extra damage. Naked green dice have 3 of their 8 sides as evades, if you count focuses as evades that jumps to 5 sides out of 8.
So it's going to save you health, and that's not counting the TL ditch it can do, which helps a little against Omega Leaders, Vaders, TL dependant ordnance carriers, etc. Anything that can TL, even preventing Whisper from being allowed to use her FCS lock for a turn (unless gunner, of course).
I'm not considering dropping Zuckuss, as you said that's like the pivotal point of the list. I was considering putting Engine Upgrade on Dengar and not use Zuckuss ability in some matchup that could benefit more from the boost. That's also why I asked about countermeasures, since they must be dropped if I want to make room for EU.
With overclocked I would put countermeasures, but with the pain droid I'm not that sure.
Is there a recorded game that shows this list beating triple uboats? I'm just curious because it seems like such an uphill battle, despite all the shenanigans. It's essentially 18hp/2attacks+gimmicks vs 27hp/3attacks. And even with buffs dengar/manaroo will get hit by torps or R1 PWTs (esp with deadeye combo), so the uboat player will get damage through either way.
I know that's simplistic, but this list does have to make up a 9hp behind 2agi difference while having LESS alpha strike than the uboats. I'd like to see it to be honest.
Edited by Celes
Well as a member of "Jeff's crew" we don't always run the same thing and actually we usually run something different. Plus it wasn't like we all saw his list was like yep that's too good I'm running it too. It came together with help of multiple people. Plus each of us running it have different play styles so we can really find some of the best strategies with certain match ups. Also some of our members are imperial or rebel for life and won't ever run anything else lol. I like team x wing.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it. I just prefer players play with lists they have constructed fully on their own. It's not a realistic expectation, but something I like to see.
What's wrong with that?On an indirectly related note, are we getting to the competitive point that we are taking the MtG approach of "teams" which show to tournaments running the same list/deck which they have put in heavy play testing with? Seems Nova (or at least the Howard brothers), Jeff's crew, Mynock, and so on seem to be taking this approach now.
Not a fan of the game turning that way, but I assume it was inevitable.
Ya don't get me wrong. I don't think that it is a cheap tactic or poor sportsmanship or anything. I just personally, totally individually, for selfish reasons, enjoy players playing lists they have constructed fully on their own. I find it interesting to see what people come up with on their own, and when players bring these home brewed lists to tourneys, the likelihood of list diversity is higher. Like I said, team building is pretty much inevitable and likely the future if X-wing continues to grow in popularity. So all in all, my own selfish desires are my only fuel here.
But people get together and brainstorm ideas. So, sometimes, a list isn't any one person's creation. As well, perhaps people actually enjoy playing the list (Dengaroo looks pretty fun, to be honest).
Your statement makes it seem like you don't like a meta existing - at some point, people repeat lists, either because 1) they're good, and/or 2) they just like the list.
On an indirectly related note, are we getting to the competitive point that we are taking the MtG approach of "teams" which show to tournaments running the same list/deck which they have put in heavy play testing with? Seems Nova (or at least the Howard brothers), Jeff's crew, Mynock, and so on seem to be taking this approach now.
Not a fan of the game turning that way, but I assume it was inevitable.
UMMMMM not part of NOVA squadron but we are all from the same MD/VA region.
The Howards use the same list (but their Dad Doesnt) and Ron is running it as well. The rest of us however were running completely different lists. I was running DMC (Drea Manaroo Contracted Scout) and Derek was running Tel Bossk, Travis was running RAC Whisper, and Chuck was running Soontir Carnor Palp. Of course there will be some people from the same area having the same list as they practice against each other constantly.
Well as a member of "Jeff's crew" we don't always run the same thing and actually we usually run something different. Plus it wasn't like we all saw his list was like yep that's too good I'm running it too. It came together with help of multiple people. Plus each of us running it have different play styles so we can really find some of the best strategies with certain match ups. Also some of our members are imperial or rebel for life and won't ever run anything else lol. I like team x wing.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it. I just prefer players play with lists they have constructed fully on their own. It's not a realistic expectation, but something I like to see.
What's wrong with that?On an indirectly related note, are we getting to the competitive point that we are taking the MtG approach of "teams" which show to tournaments running the same list/deck which they have put in heavy play testing with? Seems Nova (or at least the Howard brothers), Jeff's crew, Mynock, and so on seem to be taking this approach now.
Not a fan of the game turning that way, but I assume it was inevitable.
Heh, it is funny to see this sentiment. Up until this regional season, Rook Squad has never had identical lists being run. Ben was always some sort of Rebels mixed bag, I ran primarily Bwings (double deci's at last years GenCon though), Eric has almost always found a way to include Lando, Phil consistently runs Deci/Whisper, and Jeff ran Dash and Bluex2 to win Nationals last year. I don't know the squad history of a couple of the other guys, but I think they were also doing their own thing.
So, perhaps it is a sign of a more constricted meta when you see teams gravitate to the same list. Lots of behind-the-scenes analysis and practice go into it, and generally speaking it's a meta call. Regardless of the fact that plenty of people bring unique squads to tourneys, you have to be prepared to face the expected meta after the cut. It seems like there are less options at that point than there have been in previous waves, which drives teams to adopt a consistent strategy.
Well as a member of "Jeff's crew" we don't always run the same thing and actually we usually run something different. Plus it wasn't like we all saw his list was like yep that's too good I'm running it too. It came together with help of multiple people. Plus each of us running it have different play styles so we can really find some of the best strategies with certain match ups. Also some of our members are imperial or rebel for life and won't ever run anything else lol. I like team x wing.
There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with it. I just prefer players play with lists they have constructed fully on their own. It's not a realistic expectation, but something I like to see.
What's wrong with that?On an indirectly related note, are we getting to the competitive point that we are taking the MtG approach of "teams" which show to tournaments running the same list/deck which they have put in heavy play testing with? Seems Nova (or at least the Howard brothers), Jeff's crew, Mynock, and so on seem to be taking this approach now.
Not a fan of the game turning that way, but I assume it was inevitable.
Ya don't get me wrong. I don't think that it is a cheap tactic or poor sportsmanship or anything. I just personally, totally individually, for selfish reasons, enjoy players playing lists they have constructed fully on their own. I find it interesting to see what people come up with on their own, and when players bring these home brewed lists to tourneys, the likelihood of list diversity is higher. Like I said, team building is pretty much inevitable and likely the future if X-wing continues to grow in popularity. So all in all, my own selfish desires are my only fuel here.
Ironically I just started flying some scum and had my own list going when I found this topic. I read the Armada threads WAY more but got to thinking about W-boat build as I liked feeding Dengar. My list however is different. I set Dengar up to throw torpedos with Manaroo blocking. I put inertial dampers on Dengar to stop him and move him back if I need a back up to maneuvering. I'm tempted to throw gunner on him too. My only difference is I don't have Zuckuss on him, but know why they do put him on there.
I'm not half the player the high profile users of this list are, but it seems to me that Manaroo is the key. Dengar is the front line and is set up to dodge and tank and dish out damage, while Manaroo feeds him. Manaroo goes down, though, and Dengar is in pretty bad shape. The right strategy for avoiding damage from Dengar while chasing a boosting Manaroo, however, seems hard for most lists.
Dengar is the one to go for first, most lists have the ability to take out manaroo with only part of thier list. Dengar requires your entire list. Drop dengar first. Manaroo is a trap, she's fast durable and stacks tokens, you wont drop her with Dengar pounding on the rest of your list.
Is there a recorded game that shows this list beating triple uboats? I'm just curious because it seems like such an uphill battle, despite all the shenanigans. It's essentially 18hp/2attacks+gimmicks vs 27hp/3attacks. And even with buffs dengar/manaroo will get hit by torps or R1 PWTs (esp with deadeye combo), so the uboat player will get damage through either way.
I know that's simplistic, but this list does have to make up a 9hp behind 2agi difference while having LESS alpha strike than the uboats. I'd like to see it to be honest.
To be fair, EVERY match except Crack Swarm is an uphill battle against Triple JM5K torp boats.
Is there a recorded game that shows this list beating triple uboats? I'm just curious because it seems like such an uphill battle, despite all the shenanigans. It's essentially 18hp/2attacks+gimmicks vs 27hp/3attacks. And even with buffs dengar/manaroo will get hit by torps or R1 PWTs (esp with deadeye combo), so the uboat player will get damage through either way.
I know that's simplistic, but this list does have to make up a 9hp behind 2agi difference while having LESS alpha strike than the uboats. I'd like to see it to be honest.
To be fair, EVERY match except Crack Swarm is an uphill battle against Triple JM5K torp boats.
I feel confident with Brobots, especially with Inertial Dampeners. You can control your engagements really well.
When two large base lists joust each other, you tend to zoom into range 1 quickly especially since a boost can reactively push you 3 base lengths ahead. If only one U-Boat has a range 3 shot at a token stacked Aggressor, it's not going to do much so you can use that to get early damage in/set up FCS.
Another thing is that when you close to range one of the U-Boats, their white sloops are now likely blocked.
U-Boats crush a lot of things no doubt, but they're less harmful to the game than a ship that can pull 3 evades out of its ass on a completely blank roll. Yeah, a B-Wing is dying in 2 torp blasts, but he's not going to punch through an Acewing either.
I played Jeff in the first round of the cut at Nationals and got my ass kicked by it. It is a really good list and Jeff is, obviously, an outstanding player. For me, it is more meta changing than triple u-boats, and something I have to consider in future list building.
This is exactly what this wave 8 did, so nice to see these new lists popping out after the triple U-boat hate frenzy that has been going ever since! Maybe people stop complaining about it anf moved to planning counters!
Fantastic!
We're back to fat double turret lists, and the circle is complete.
We're back to fat double turret lists, and the circle is complete.
Maybe that's bit fast conclusion!
We're back to fat double turret lists, and the circle is complete.
This one at least has some style to it.
So I saw this build, loved it, had ships painted specifically for it and changed it. My list is modified specifically with Jumpmasters in mind.
Dengar-
Lone Wolf
R5-P8
Punishing One
Zuckuss
Glitterstim
Countermeasures
Manaroo-
PTL
Proton Torps
Unhinged Astromech
EM
Gonk
Feedback Array
GC
Now I am a middling player in a highly competitive area but I've had pretty good success with this build out. It is 97 pts and the 3 pt bid is more coincidental. I found people would ignore Manaroo because she just didn't have much punch. With PTL and the Torps she can't be ignored. Vs Jumpmasters Manaroo just tanks Torp shots and uses Gonk to recoup shields. I have yet to play a game in which Gonk didn't get 3 shield tokens before engagement and use at least two of those. Gonk has also been valuable for MOV with Manaroo being large based. My worst fear is indeed Boba on a Torp Jumpmaster firing at Dengar.
The only change I'd make to the original list is to perhaps replace the Plasma and 1 point initiative bid with double flechettes on Dengar. Even if you do not hit with them, they auto-tag aces with stress and even Brobots.
We're back to fat double turret lists, and the circle is complete.
This one at least has some style to it.
The way this build is set up, Dengar does not have the Super Dash loadout. And since he's stressed he cannot reposition. Since you're flying what is essentially a one ship build, you /need/ to use Dengar's ability instead of just drawing ships into chasing you around the board like a *insert derogatory comment about fat turret players here*.
There is some creativity and perhaps some actual skill involved in playing this list.
Edited by ParaGoomba SlayerThere is some creativity and perhaps some actual skill involved in playing this list.
I'm completely enamored with Dengaroo. It is one of the most subversive and elegant designs I've seen in some time, and I'm experimenting with its various incarnations locally.
As for the team approach question, Mynock is primarily a think tank. We do liberally borrow squads from each other, but even at its peak, there were maybe 5 of us running the "Mynock Special". We're a varied group of players, and we assist each other in preparing for tournaments and matches. Having other brains to throw ideas at accelerates the theory crafting to proof of concept pipeline.
I have been having some success with this build out on Manaroo
Manaroo
Opportunist
Ex. Munitions
Proton Torps
K4
Unhinged Astro
Guidance Chips
Paired up with Denger
Dengar
Swarm Tactics
Ex. Munitions
Proton Torps
K4
Unhinged Astro
Guidance Chips
Punishing One
Have not flown against Crack Swarms but Palp Aces has not been a problem.
Edited by catachanninjaThe only change I'd make to the original list is to perhaps replace the Plasma and 1 point initiative bid with double flechettes on Dengar. Even if you do not hit with them, they auto-tag aces with stress and even Brobots.
Also, a 2 attack primary turret is hardly a fat one.We're back to fat double turret lists, and the circle is complete.
This one at least has some style to it.
The way this build is set up, Dengar does not have the Super Dash loadout. And since he's stressed he cannot reposition. Since you're flying what is essentially a one ship build, you /need/ to use Dengar's ability instead of just drawing ships into chasing you around the board like a *insert derogatory comment about fat turret players here*.
There is some creativity and perhaps some actual skill involved in playing this list.
I saw this list and tried running it, obviously not very well, as had never tried it before, I found Dengar carrying all the weight, and manaroo, trying to stay alive to pass her tokens off.
Are there any videos up of this list playing, would love some insight to how it flies well:-)
Paul
Two things that I've experienced with this list. First, the key is getting the timing of the usage of the Countermeasures and Glitterstim right. It's the difference between a win and a loss vs a good player with a competitive list. Second, unless you have Overclocked Dengar doesn't always fly around with a pile of stress. Even when playing Aces R5-P8 does a good amount of that dirty work. Frankly R5-P8 is so good vs Aces I don't know why anyone would consider replacing him.
I saw this list and tried running it, obviously not very well, as had never tried it before, I found Dengar carrying all the weight, and manaroo, trying to stay alive to pass her tokens off.
Are there any videos up of this list playing, would love some insight to how it flies well:-)
Paul
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fOBNAf1qavM
Edited by catachanninja