There is no meta my friend. Theres only what you do.

The meta is a popularity thing, not a mathematical graph of the most effective lists out there like I once thought it was.

You still don't get it. The meta is not just a popularity contest, people don't play those ships because they're cool or popular. But rather they are popular because they are objectively speaking the best ship/combo/list out there.

People don't play Contracted Scouts because they love the ship or the lore behind it. They play it because they recognize that with given options it's an extremely powerful ship.

What you're trying to do is put the cart in front of the horse and say that the Meta is just about what's most popular, but it's not. The meta is defined by what is most efficient in the current environment and those options naturally become quite popular.

Are those top players static?

To a fairly large degree yes they are.

If we're talking tournaments here and people who want to win tournaments there's a strong chance what's popular at the top is also very good.

People bring what list they feel has the best chance of winning. Now, if they were doing that by imitation only and the 'meta'lists weren't also very strong lists, how come none of the very crafty individuals in the x-wing community hasn't figured out yet how to regularly beat them?

The fact that, despite knowing with pretty high accuracy which the lists to beat are, nobody has managed to beat them consistently is IMO proof that the 'meta'lists are indeed very strong,not just very popular.

The meta is a popularity thing, not a mathematical graph of the most effective lists out there like I once thought it was.

You still don't get it. The meta is not just a popularity contest, people don't play those ships because they're cool or popular. But rather they are popular because they are objectively speaking the best ship/combo/list out there.

People don't play Contracted Scouts because they love the ship or the lore behind it. They play it because they recognize that with given options it's an extremely powerful ship.

What you're trying to do is put the cart in front of the horse and say that the Meta is just about what's most popular, but it's not. The meta is defined by what is most efficient in the current environment and those options naturally become quite popular.

Are those top players static?

To a fairly large degree yes they are.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. Somthing not cool looking or really fluffy, Contracted Scouts in this case, only becomes popular BECAUSE they Mathematically perform better than their counterparts. This doesnt mean they ALWAYS do or that they cant be beat, just that when you look at average, 50%, they perform better than the average, anything from 51% up to 99%, no list is ever 100%.

If we're talking tournaments here and people who want to win tournaments there's a strong chance what's popular at the top is also very good.

People bring what list they feel has the best chance of winning. Now, if they were doing that by imitation only and the 'meta'lists weren't also very strong lists, how come none of the very crafty individuals in the x-wing community hasn't figured out yet how to regularly beat them?

The fact that, despite knowing with pretty high accuracy which the lists to beat are, nobody has managed to beat them consistently is IMO proof that the 'meta'lists are indeed very strong,not just very popular.

To put it another way its popular BECAUSE it does well, not just because people like it. Where Y-Wings, Hawks, or Contracted Scouts really popular and everyone secretly loved running them? OR is it more likely that they did well, Thuglife, TLT HWK, U-Boats, and people wanted to win therefore they become the favorite, aka Popular, thing to run.

The meta is a popularity thing, not a mathematical graph of the most effective lists out there like I once thought it was.

It's both. The effectiveness drives the popularity, but it's much more complicated and interconnected than that. If it was just popularity we'd see X-wings, Falcons, and Firesprays everywhere. Those ships, as popular and iconic as they are, just aren't very effective in the current state of the game so we don't see them much at competitive tourneys.

Palp Aces is the most popular and dominant list now. It is effective, but it can be easily countered with some Rebels lists. Unfortunately, those same Rebel lists suffer greatly against the alpha strike lists like U-boats. U-boats, the new hotness, are popular and effective. They push the rebels out and allow the Palp Aces to run rampant.

With Imperial Veterans, the meta will shift again. Palp Aces may drop an ace for a Defender. Imperial bombers may have an alpha strike list that can match up well against U-boats and Aces. Triple defenders could be a thing. Defenders are very popular amongst the folks that played TIE Fighter back in the day. Now that they're being made more effective you'll see a lot more of them on the table. But I suspect that the Palp Aces will still be on top.

If we're talking tournaments here and people who want to win tournaments there's a strong chance what's popular at the top is also very good.

People bring what list they feel has the best chance of winning. Now, if they were doing that by imitation only and the 'meta'lists weren't also very strong lists, how come none of the very crafty individuals in the x-wing community hasn't figured out yet how to regularly beat them?

The fact that, despite knowing with pretty high accuracy which the lists to beat are, nobody has managed to beat them consistently is IMO proof that the 'meta'lists are indeed very strong,not just very popular.

To put it another way its popular BECAUSE it does well, not just because people like it. Where Y-Wings, Hawks, or Contracted Scouts really popular and everyone secretly loved running them? OR is it more likely that they did well, Thuglife, TLT HWK, U-Boats, and people wanted to win therefore they become the favorite, aka Popular, thing to run.

Defenders are one of the best examples of the opposite of this. People love that ship but only a few have been able to make it work and it's rarely seen despite that.

The meta is a popularity thing, not a mathematical graph of the most effective lists out there like I once thought it was.

You still don't get it. The meta is not just a popularity contest, people don't play those ships because they're cool or popular. But rather they are popular because they are objectively speaking the best ship/combo/list out there. People don't play Contracted Scouts because they love the ship or the lore behind it. They play it because they recognize that with given options it's an extremely powerful ship. What you're trying to do is put the cart in front of the horse and say that the Meta is just about what's most popular, but it's not. The meta is defined by what is most efficient in the current environment and those options naturally become quite popular.

Are those top players static?

To a fairly large degree yes they are.

It's not like the same person has won World's two or three times.

What I am saying, using the words actual defintion, is that mathematically, the Meta lists aren't actually superior until someone says "No, guy. Heres a link to the thing that says you're wrong." The idea that Meta lists are superior is just stupid and doesn't really amount to anything other than them being super popular.

How do you suppose those lists got to be popular in the first place?

Palp Aces has been around since wave 7. At first most people thought the Emperor was overcosted. 8 points to modify one lousy die? Practically useless. Then they began to see how it could work with high-value aces and the first Palp Aces list was born. But it didn't light the world on fire. Why? There were other popular lists that kept them from dominating.

Those lists were Rebels with stress, control and/or regeneration. World's featured two rebel lists in the final. Paul Heaver won and said "everyone should have a stresshog." And they did and there was much rejoicing.

Wave 8 comes out and immediately people can see that three contracted scouts can be kitted out to be very powerful. It has great alpha-strike potential and practically overnight it pushes Rebels from the top of the food chain. People start to complain. They're OP, a huge mistake by FFG. People start to focus on how to counter them. And while no one's looking Palp Aces start winning events. It's mutated now; Vader is gone. The Inquisitor or Carnor take his place. Wampa is seen along with Omega Leader. Paul Heaver starts running them too. Suddenly he's no longer defining the meta, he's chasing it.

None of this happens because people suddenly decide collectively that they really, really like the shuttle that's been around since wave 3.

...fantastic illustration, history and definition of the meta; well played, well typed.

You don't understand, it's because we're all drones picking up our orders from the metagame mothership!

just aren't very effective in the current state of the game so we don't see them much at competitive tourneys.

That's a key part of it, the current state of the game . Because that's what the meta is really all about, and why it changes. Every expansion changes the current state and most times it changes what the most effective lists are.

Some people tend to rail against the meta as something that says "You must play these units and no others" which simply isn't true. The meta doesn't say that. It simply is a list of what we the players have decided are the most effective units/lists are.

The power of these units/lists are normally proven in the fact that so many people consistently win with them.

You don't understand, it's because we're all drones picking up our orders from the metagame mothership!

The metaship, surely.

Ultimately it comes down to what you think the existence of a metagame actually says to you as a player. Way back on the earliest days of The Dojo - the seminal strategy site for Magic: The Gathering, so we're talking 1994 or so - the very idea of a metagame became born and popularised in what was called "Decks To Beat".

IMPORTANT: It wasn't "Decks to Play" it was "Decks To Beat".

Understanding what the metagame lists are does not stifle creativity, in fact it's the first step in being creative because the metagame is the puzzle that you're presented with to solve.

The guys that talk about .5 points, and a ship being useless based on mathematical projections.

At the highest level of competition .5 does actually make a difference. I do however agree that a ship like that shouldn't be simply written off, or called worthless.

There's nothing wrong with saying it's a tier 1.5 or tier 2 ship for example so people know there's better options out there in terms of pure efficiency. That way people will know what they're getting. For example if I decide to take a T-65 in a list I'm better off knowing it won't perform as well as some other ships will.

That meta is fake

No it really isn't, it can't be because the term meta means the game outside the game, and the high level competitive meta very much exists.

I can agree with you on that. Real META is kinda cool actually.

The funny thing is when you have been around it as long as we have, some of us get bored by the hyped and often heated chatter surrounding it.

I just saw the entertainment weekly Rogue One stuff for example and it did not get me excited because I already knew about most of it.

I can agree with you on that. Real META is kinda cool actually.

Clearly someone hacked JBR7's account.

There is no meta my friend. Theres only what you do.

No, no.... There is no spoon.

I can agree with you on that. Real META is kinda cool actually.

Clearly someone hacked JBR7's account.

IZ Me-sah!

It all makes sense now. JB7 is really Jar Jar.

The meta is a popularity thing, not a mathematical graph of the most effective lists out there like I once thought it was.

You still don't get it. The meta is not just a popularity contest, people don't play those ships because they're cool or popular. But rather they are popular because they are objectively speaking the best ship/combo/list out there.

People don't play Contracted Scouts because they love the ship or the lore behind it. They play it because they recognize that with given options it's an extremely powerful ship.

What you're trying to do is put the cart in front of the horse and say that the Meta is just about what's most popular, but it's not. The meta is defined by what is most efficient in the current environment and those options naturally become quite popular.

Are those top players static?

To a fairly large degree yes they are.

No I get it. I don't agree with you but I get it. It's what that Stay on the Leader dude said, chicken or the egg. Are they popular because they are effective or does the higher exposure lead to more wins making them more effective than a list that doesn't get as much exposure?

It really doesnt matter. If everyone at a tournement brings 1 headhunter each, the local meta is solo headhunter with huge init bids.

If you're trying to win a tournamnet, you have to beat the meta. Against the solo Z meta, that's easy. Against a meta of everyone else trying to win the tournament, it becomes a matter of half-point efficencies and good flying.

It all makes sense now. JB7 is really Jar Jar.

There is some punk-kid on here that had the audacity to sing up as "Red Seven"... been here a short while now.

It's what that Stay on the Leader dude said, chicken or the egg.

So you're both wrong. It's not chicken and the egg. Sure a lot of people will chase the meta, but the top lists aren't the top lists because they're popular, they're popular because they've been proven to be effective in the current environment.

They've been proven to be effective by several people who take them and do very well with them at several different events. It quite simply can not work like you seem to think it does, because what drives popularity is effectiveness, and so they need to be proven effective before they become popular.

A list no matter how popular that doesn't perform well will never be considered a top meta list.

Edit: For example I'd say that 75% or more of the people who like Rebel ships, love the Elite X type list, some comb of Luke, Wedge, Biggs, Wes, Tarn, ect... Three T-65 aces...

Yet it seldom performs well, so it will never be a top meta list until the current environment changes and they become effective at the higher levels of competition. So no matter how popular that list maybe and the number of "How can we fix the X-Wing" posts prove it's a popular concept it's still not a top meta list.

It's what that Stay on the Leader dude said, chicken or the egg.

So you're both wrong. It's not chicken and the egg. Sure a lot of people will chase the meta, but the top lists aren't the top lists because they're popular, they're popular because they've been proven to be effective in the current environment.

They've been proven to be effective by several people who take them and do very well with them at several different events. It quite simply can not work like you seem to think it does, because what drives popularity is effectiveness, and so they need to be proven effective before they become popular.

A list no matter how popular that doesn't perform well will never be considered a top meta list.

Edit: For example I'd say that 75% or more of the people who like Rebel ships, love the Elite X type list, some comb of Luke, Wedge, Biggs, Wes, Tarn, ect... Three T-65 aces...

Yet it seldom performs well, so it will never be a top meta list until the current environment changes and they become effective at the higher levels of competition. So no matter how popular that list maybe and the number of "How can we fix the X-Wing" posts prove it's a popular concept it's still not a top meta list.

Nicely put, but I do hate the fact you chunked my X-wing die rolling ace in with the "etc."

The obviously strong stuff will become the gatekeepers, the stuff you know will show up and be popular.

The obviously strong stuff will become the gatekeepers, the stuff you know will show up and be popular.

And that's the thing... It's not like we have some vote that takes place to decide what new hot list(s) will be. They just become the hot list because a number of people can see how 1+1=3 in some cases and given ships or combos are better than the sum of their parts.

Like the U-Boat, that didn't become popular because it's a cool ship or sets off our fond memories of the movies or anything, I'm not sure most people even like the design.

But a number of people looked at what it had to offer, what you could put on it, and how much that all cost, and realized that three of them equipped correctly would make a very formidable list. The U-Boat list if anything proves that effectiveness is the cause of popularity.