I really like the idea of running a game where the warband basically gets to officially troll/BLAM! the Ecclesiarchy. Unfortunately not much info exists on the Ordo Sanctorum so I figured a community thread for ideas about them was in order.

My Ideas so far:

What happened to your planet's Ratling population? Abhuman citizens of the Imperium tend to get ethnically cleansed when Fanatic priests roll into town. Though second class citizens their lives belong to the Emperor and wasting those lives due to blind bigotry is heresy.

You aren't the Emperor's special chosen prophet sent to guide Humanity to a knew golden age! BLAM!

You declared a War of Faith, that's a BLAMMIN! So I read 90% of people who call in an Exterminatus are declared Heretics and executed. I like the idea of that applying to Wars of Faith as well.

More to come...

The "Ordo Sanctorum" is a pretty redundant (and only recently invented) adjunct, considering that the Ordo Hereticus practically does the same, just on a broader field. That being said, you should be able to salvage a lot of possible plots for this Ordo Sanctorum just from looking at the Ordo Hereticus' history!

A big example would probably be the declaration of Living Saints. You already kinda alluded to this in your paragraph on "chosen prophets", but the 3E Codex Witch Hunters offers some pretty good insight about how Living Saints are declared, and what role the Inquisition has to play here. Easy tie-in!

Another option would be check-ups on various clerics' influence and martial power. Under the Decree Passive, the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed large armies, but the Frateris Militias occasionally raised by some clerics are obviously skirting the boundaries of the law. Perhaps a warband should investigate a cleric's rumored military build-up to ensure he or she is not preparing for a coup?

The tricky thing here would be that the Frateris Militia is generally tolerated as an independently organised group of "concerned citizens" merely wishing to protect their church, so the Inquisition may have to investigate just how much control the clergy has over these fighters (did they form on their own and just listen to what the guy has to say, or was that cleric actively recruiting an army?), or if there is even a pressing need to have so many of them (defending the church vs the church attacking someone else), or just what sort of weapons they have at their disposal and where they are coming from. Most importantly: is there any dirt on this cleric? What does he want with those warriors? Thinking about possible motifs and collecting evidence might make for an intriguing investigation. Especially if some of those zealous followers don't appreciate the nosy Acolytes. Some might even try to kill them as "heretics", but are those assassinations their own individual doing, or is the clergy condoning or even ordering them?
I'd recommend the 2E Codex Sisters of Battle for more reading on the Frateris Militia.

Though second class citizens their lives belong to the Emperor and wasting those lives due to blind bigotry is heresy.

That sounds awfully 21st century. In codex fluff at least, mutation is interpreted as a sign of corruption, so it's not so much "blind bigotry" as it is just doing what the officially sanctioned state-religion teaches people.

However, maybe a case could be made where those killings actively hamper Imperial economy? For example, nobody cares to what happens to some dregs in the underhive, but if a particularly zealous preacher stages a pogrom on Imperial slave labour, which results in a production loss of critical war materials, that might certainly warrant intervention.

But what sort of adventure would you actually craft around this? I don't see much room for intrigue or even combat, unless you'd want to deepen the plot a little -- such as by said cleric actually being a deep cover infiltrator of some Chaos cult maybe?

You declared a War of Faith, that's a BLAMMIN!

Wars of Faith are declared by the Ecclesiarch and need to be greenlighted by the Senatorum Imperialis before they're actually launched. Sounds a bit "high level" if you want to go and basically depose all the High Lords, not to mention that other Inquisitors might not appreciate such a bold move.

Also, where's that 90% number from?

The Ordo Hereticus does cover essentially every branch of humanity. Considering the Ordo Sanctorum a specific sub-faction might make sense.

The Ecclesiarchy is one of the largest and most byzantine organisations within the Imperium, so a dedicated group policing it is quite reasonable - especially since a lot of the important policing needs to be done with a certain amount of consent - yes, Inquisitors are the Left Hand Of The Emperor yadda yadda yadda, but the Ecclesiarchy is one of those entities with no shortage of Peers Of The Imperium within its own ranks too.

Abhumans or mutants getting purged biting into a planet's productivity is a nice call. As noted, the Imperium doesn't really care what you do on your own world as long as the output (tithes, troops, psykers) are met and there's no specific heresies going on. At the same time, the Imperium has to be pragmatic at times. Those filthy mutants are churning out the resources which fuels a nearby warzone, making Triggerhappy Redepmtionist Nutbar #231,421's actions directly responsible for the loss of a battle.

Areas where there are nice political shenanigans going on for the Inquisition to get involved in:

• Lines Of Succession - A cardinal-astral is a hugely authoritative Peer Of The Imperium. Whilst planetary governors and rogue traders tend towards dynastic succession, you don't get the same 'heir apparent' bloodlines in the church. Faction fights over who gets to be the next senior ecclesiarch could get nasty, fast, and who knows what the various cardinals will stoop to, or who they'll make bargains with, to get ahead. In fact, Inquisitorial meddling in the ordination of a cardinal is the mission described in Dark Heresy:Ascension , if I recall.
• The Doctrine of the Faith - what is heresy? It's a serious question. Yes, the image of a psychotic frothing-at-the-mouth preacher who'll burn anyone who can't recite an obscure variation on the Fede Imperialis from memory in High Gothic or who has an upturned nose or an ill-placed wart is a popular one, but at the same time, the Missionaria Galaxia is often nothing like that judgemental. If you have a monotheistic religion that they can identify "God" with "The Emperor" and insert appropriate traditions (civil obedience good, mutants bad), the Ecclesiarchy is often fairly open-minded. The problem is at what point do you decide a theological deviation is unacceptable, and at what point is it unforgivable? And what happens if two prominent factions in a sector Synod disagree?
• Wars of Faith - as noted, a War Of Faith is an Imperial Crusade by any other name. If it's done illegally (i.e. without the support of the High Lords) then by all means bring the rogue cardinal to heel. But at the same time, if the crusade's actually winning, then the ideal thing to do is not simply crush it, but take control of it and redirect it under new management.
• Sainthood - as noted, the Inqusition has fingers in pies with regards to living saints (and probably beatification of dead saints). At the same time, an organisation with unlimited influence and access to many secrets, xenos technology and psykers could be in a good position to 'manufacture' miracles and hence saints, if they were of a mind to create a 'spokesman' to direct the beliefs of the populace in a given direction.
• Secrets best kept - The Ecclesiarchy is, at a fundamental level, founded on pretty shaky bedrock. After all, the object of their devotion is a God who (a) insisted he wasn't a god and (b) specifically forbade anyone (and they're supposed to obey his will, remember) to worship him, and the original core of their theology was written by a being who is one of the blackest traitors in the history of the Imperium (Lorgar). Of course, both these details are obscured by ten thousand years of history and countless distortions, revisions and myths, but there will be someone who still knows. Possibly even has hard evidence to that effect. How do you suppose a devout, genuinely pious priest would react to reading a copy of the bombardment order for Monarchia?

After all, the object of their devotion is a God who (a) insisted he wasn't a god and (b) specifically forbade anyone (and they're supposed to obey his will, remember) to worship him, and the original core of their theology was written by a being who is one of the blackest traitors in the history of the Imperium (Lorgar).

To be fair, this bit doesn't exist anywhere in 40k except for a singular novel series written by Black Library freelancers. It's a popular novel series, but personally I'm a bit skeptical as to how easily it seems to get accepted by parts of the community, especially when said novels obviously contradict GW core material on certain issues.

Pretty much a matter of personal interpretation, so if a group agrees on using these books for their common ground then by all means, go for it! I just wanted to point this out anyways on the off chance that someone believes the Lorgar stuff to be some sort of universally accepted "truth" in the setting, akin to Ultramarines wearing blue armour.

Good point on the "manufacture of miracles" bit, though! That one actually ties in nicely with one of my theories on Saint Celestine's true nature.

Notably, such a campaign could also yield some interesting Inquisitor-vs-Inquisitor intrigue as factions clash. Apparently, one example for this could be the Saint Jehialia, as mentioned in the article on Ephrael Stern posted on GW's website here :

"The only previous occasion this has occurred in an investigation I have been a part of was the renunciation of the so-called Living Saint Jehialia of Khandis V, in which a strong Thorian faction amongst the beati's advocates sealed all records regarding her ancestry."

Seems like someone had something to hide, huh?

Pretty much a matter of personal interpretation, so if a group agrees on using these books for their common ground then by all means, go for it! I just wanted to point this out anyways on the off chance that someone believes the Lorgar stuff to be some sort of universally accepted "truth" in the setting, akin to Ultramarines wearing blue armour.

The "Lorgar stuff" isn't exactly Horus Heresy series only, though.

The "Secular Imperium", I'll agree, came out of Horus Rising and the follow-on (although it's core enough to that series that it filters through into the Forgeworld black books and referenced in very occasional 40k stories written since (mostly from a few "what the traitors did next" books like the Ahriman series, Talon of Horus, and Eater of Worlds - admittedly all written by people who are also Horus Heresy authors, although I think I recall The Emperor's Gift, Pandorax and The Keeler Image also having references in passing).

The idea that a lot of the 'bedrock theology' of the Imperium came from Lorgar (one of it's most infamous traitors and heretics) is perfectly sensible, though; even if you think his "telling off" was entirely that he wasn't taking worlds fast enough, he was explicitly a theologian deifying the Emperor during the crusade, and one of the twenty most important individuals in the Imperium at the time (Primarchs, Malcador and the Emperor).

Therefore, even if you disregard the Horus Heresy novels (and I think it's fair to say that doing that puts you in a minority) that assuming the core elements of the early church beliefs came from Lorgar is reasonable since he is the only named individual we know who was establishing them.

Notably, such a campaign could also yield some interesting Inquisitor-vs-Inquisitor intrigue as factions clash. Apparently, one example for this could be the Saint Jehialia, as mentioned in the article on Ephrael Stern posted on GW's website here :

"The only previous occasion this has occurred in an investigation I have been a part of was the renunciation of the so-called Living Saint Jehialia of Khandis V, in which a strong Thorian faction amongst the beati's advocates sealed all records regarding her ancestry."

Seems like someone had something to hide, huh?

In Dark Heresy 1 in the Radical's Handbook, there's quite a few indications that what happened to General Saint Drusus was in some way involving the more nefarious branches of the Inquisition, as I recall. This in no way turns around and bites everyone in the arse in the Apostasy Gambit campaign book. Honest.

The idea that a lot of the 'bedrock theology' of the Imperium came from Lorgar (one of it's most infamous traitors and heretics) is perfectly sensible, though; even if you think his "telling off" was entirely that he wasn't taking worlds fast enough, he was explicitly a theologian deifying the Emperor during the crusade, and one of the twenty most important individuals in the Imperium at the time (Primarchs, Malcador and the Emperor).

I don't think it is sensible at all. It's safe to say that the nascent Inquisition and other Loyalist forces would have hunted down the followers and works of one of the biggest traitors to the Imperium, and this includes his writings. Him being preachy about it would only make it even easier to recognise - and consequently ban - all the things he wrote, at the very least on places belonging to the core territories of the Loyalist Imperium, in particular Holy Terra where (according to Games Workshop) the Ecclesiarchy started, far from Lorgar's conquered territories where he would have been able to publish his books.

Also, Lorgar supposedly being the only named individual establishing Imperial religion is wrong, and this is where the idea of the Ecclesiarchy as based on a traitor's writing clashes with codex material: The 2E C:SoB clearly mentions Fatidicus to be the original prophet of the God-Emperor, based on Terra itself as he used to be a loyalist officer of the Imperial Navy and a survivor of the final battle.

There's only two ways he could have been influenced by Lorgar, and that is him actually being a deep-cover agent for Chaos (which sounds odd as he would've been helping his enemies), or him being entirely unaware of the origin of religious texts that influenced him (which goes back to the Imperium apparently not being able to recognise the author as one of the Imperium's Most Wanted, and it being weird for one of Lorgar's books showing up on Terra of all places).

The codex (and newer iterations) also mentions that the Ecclesiarchy's gospel is not the product of a singular influence, but rather a wild amalgamation of local cults and beliefs that all sprang up independently , and which the original Temple of the Saviour Emperor (Fatidicus' movement on Terra / in the Imperial Navy) gobbled up as it expanded its influence. Here it may be possible that some of Lorgar's stuff may have become absorbed in the form of twisted local cults who passed on Lorgar's teachings without actually remembering his name (else the Imperium would certainly have noticed) or replicating his words 100% (oral tradition), but certainly, if you want to go by GW's original writing, Lorgar can neither be the origin nor a notable influence on the Ecclesiarchy.

Ultimately, all I can say is that not everything in the setting has to be based on some Space Marine, so much so that novel authors retcon decades-old codex fluff for it.

I understand these books are popular, but at the end of the day, they conflict with codex material on a number of things, so people will have to pick their preferred source -- and personally, I'm going to stick with the studio that came up with the setting in the first place, rather than Black Library (or Forgeworld) that keeps publishing derivative works that contradict even themselves. To me, it's just a matter of respecting the IP's origins and of the core material being way more consistent.

Is the majority of players truly preferring novels over codex material? I wouldn't be so sure, and rather suspect they are not aware of the contradictions, as (from what I have seen) a lot of people seem to be far more versed in the novels than GW studio fluff, due to owning more novels than codices (few people own more than the codex of their one army), and fewer people still seem to have read the background articles in White Dwarf such as the Index Astartes series.

On a sidenote: The "Secular Imperium" is another one of those ideas that just doesn't really seem to gel with established works once you consider that the Emperor apparently had no problem with the Cult Mechanicus. Do the novels address/explain this apparent inconsistency in some way? I wouldn't want to discount the possibility that it is justified in some way, but I'd be curious about the "how".

All in all, it just seems like a "twist for a twist's sake" with a bunch of plot holes, but the more I hear about those books the more critical I became of them, so I'm certainly not unbiased here. Take my posts with a grain of salt.

In Dark Heresy 1 in the Radical's Handbook, there's quite a few indications that what happened to General Saint Drusus was in some way involving the more nefarious branches of the Inquisition, as I recall. This in no way turns around and bites everyone in the arse in the Apostasy Gambit campaign book. Honest.

I've not read the Apostasy Gambit, but I already had a feeling something was off in the Inquisitor's Handbook. Glad to see this might be another example.

I actually enjoy poking holes into the Imperium's religions, as I consider the people being misled to be another aspect of what actually makes the setting Grimdark, especially when it is used to justify various atrocities. It's also why I like/prefer the more "scientific" explanations for Living Saints and Acts of Faith. It's just the heavy-handed and retcon'ish approach the Horus Heresy has taken that I'm opposed to. I'll never accept their version of Ollanius Pius either, or "Perpetuals" in general.

I've not read the Apostasy Gambit, but I already had a feeling something was off in the Inquisitor's Handbook. Glad to see this might be another example

Oh, it definitely is. Essentially, someone figures out what was done and how....

To be fair, there's another equally awesome thing in....I think it's Enemies Beyond ?

A saint who's lying in state in a stasis casket at the altar of a major Ecclesiarchy cathedral

Love it! That's exactly the sort of stuff that can make both players and characters go "whoah" in a campaign.

****, reading this actually makes me want for a Dark Heresy game again...

That's not what I remember of the Saint in the stasis casket, it went more along the lines of: