@ pumpkin: You're absolutely correct, "Ordinary", not "Hand Weapons".

Maybe it's just my personal taste but I love the massive flexibility of the game as opposed to games that nickle and dime you with "rules minutia", like huge lists of modifiers and various movement rates. The players in the game I'm running have already switched gears from going through a list of numeric modifiers and an alloted number of "actions", to simply describing what all they're doing on their turn. The narrative description not only adds more "roleplaying" and immersion to the experience but also builds the dice pool while describing things. No need to consult a book or a GM's screen.

As far as the rule presentation goes maybe I'm more forgiving of the layout because I started gaming back in the early 80's. There wasn't a game produced in that decade that was anywhere close to as easy to understand as Warhammer 3E. Take a look at the original AD&D Players Handbook, or Boot Hill, or Rolemaster. Many of us have fond memories of those games but when you objectively look at the rules and the rules presentations, they completely sucked. But it is an evolving art. I do expect more from a game produced these days then I did in the 80's or 90's. Still I don't see where FFG dropped the ball, especially when considering their amount of RPG experience. All things considered they are still relatively new to the RPG world (in terms of game systems of their own design and number of products).

Of all the new games I've played in the past couple of years my players and I have had the least number of questions with Warhammer. And whenever we encounter something that isn't spelled out, the core mechanic really shines by easily and intuitively offering a solution. I think part of the problem for some people is that so much is left open on purpose. I find that refreshing but others may find it incomplete. Earlier this year we tried playing Alpha*Omega. Awesome setting (one of my favorites), gorgeous art and layout, and fantastic rule set. However the problem for us with the game was execution. Virtually every aspect of the game was mechanically spelled out in way too much detail. Each PC had several different move rates (each with different modifers to different types of actions), they could all assume any of several stances (each with different modifers to different types of actions) and only certain stances could be accessed by other stances. Just to determine the basic ability to hit a target several different charts needed to be consulted and at least 6 different modifiers were automatically coming into play, and that was before you looked at things like enviromental conditions and circumstances. Making everything worse the system is so "tightly" constructed that you can't simply ignore parts of it for a more streamlined game, it effects outcomes way to radically. The system become "all or nothing".

Now with Warhammer FRP you have a system that is more "loose". Even if you can't find an exact ruling (say for using your off-hand) it is simple to just throw in a Misfortune die to the pool. Not only is it simple to decide how many dice to add, the system itself is more forgiving (in case you've added too many or too few). Unlike a system where you add a +2 or a -4, the dice in Warhammer can always come up blank, meaning that the bonus or penalty had no impact on the roll. I've also found that this system has changed "table-talk", my players spend less time talking about the rules and more time talking about the story, thier characters, NPC's, and the world around them. Even my "rules lawyer" simply perused the rule book and when I offered to let him take it home to read he said "No, I'm good. It's all pretty straight forward." All of which I find refreshing and exciting.

I should remind people that this thread is not about discussing the rules but more the accessability of the game. I can't comment on the rules just my experiance with dealing with the components and character creation. It has been said in other places how the game plays and people have given thier views both positive and negative. I hope that by letting FFG know of my problems with the games accessability they may take steps to improve it.

I would also like to suggest a character sheet that allows space for most of the card information to be transferred would be a useful fan project. A place to write down talents and a full sized stance meter that could be ticked off. Then the game could be played using just a plain character sheet, a few markers and the action cards which would help those like me who have issues with travel and playing space.

Kaihlik

I found it hilarious to see the number of folks who jumped down your throat and accused you of being a hater because of your post. How paranoid does a fanbois have to be if he thinks someone will run out and drop $100 just to badmouth his holy grail of a game, especially in this economy. Bad reviews of WFRP3 are as welcome here as the Climategate emails at the Copenhagen Summit...

Luther said:

First off - this is the internet; what do you expect? There's bound to be someone...

Second - The VAST majority of people responded saying, "I can see your complaint." Many of those went on to say, "But... if you had done X, or if you try Y that will improve your experience." That's hardly accusing someone of being a hater.

Given the two, do we really need yet another voice in the wild screaming "Fanbois!" or "Haters!" ? It only perpetuates the stereotypes that you seem to be railing against. Most folks around here (lately since the release) have been fairly reasonable.

Just like to endorse the OP view point.

WFRP is an innovative system that I think FFG should be congratulated for but the presentation of the rules is abysmal. My group of seasoned roleplayers whose experience would total treble figures in years have had to read and re-read the rulebook in order to grasp some core mechanics. The lay out is awful and an index should have been in from the start (a separate document via erratta only mitigates this blunder so much).

Anyway a great system but I felt a need to post in support of the OP as some forum members seem totally blind to any form of constructive criticism of the game.

Luther said:

I dunno, the conversation up until this point has been pretty reasonable and tolerant?

I mean, besides one poster on the previous page, everyone has acknowledged the OP's complaints and some have even empathized with him. Some have offered suggestions for how to overcome these hurdles. You know, a constructive debate.

Ironically, the only immature name calling has come from you, actually.

RenoDM said:

Yep, I agree with pretty much that whole post. I think the rule book does take some getting your head round, but the FAQ now clarifies some of the major ambiguities and the rest of it is very much as you say, loose and open to GM's intepretation.

I think the way in which some of the rules are written in the rule book can cause some issues like the OP describes, but I think some of the issues are also caused by people expecting the rulebook to "have a rule for it" when in reality there probably isn't one other than the general one about giving the challenge a rating adding the challenge and misfortune dice and away you go..

The game is going to take some getting used to but I think for people prepared to take some time and effort to do that, it will be very rewarding.

I think that the reason a lot of players get a little "meh" to begin with is that spending a lot of money on something that on the surface looks a little cheap, now I'm not saying that the games values are cheap, the cards and rules are great, fast and loose when you need them to be and with enough weight to make things gamey when you want them to be. Now most roleplayin gamers are used to being able to get "into" a game by one guy buying the core book and all of them sharing it, its ok, most groups then buy more corebooks if they continue playing and one or two of them (normally the gm(s)) will then buy the expansion books that comes out and the rest will use theirs, here is a game that forces you to spend some money on it, custom dice I think was a big issue for a lot of players, oh my god I have to pay for dice, but we tend to forget that most of us have bought set and set again of dice because we liked the colour or because they had chutulu signs on them or for what ever reason. Another was the stand ups that scared some folks off becasue very few of us use mini's when we game and those that do had plenty of those to begin with. Then topped up with a book that was badly written it had some players sign off on the game which was a real pity.

All of that said yes you can scan your cards, hell you can even print them on cartboard the same thinkness as the rest of the games, only cost you a few quid to do so, funny thing is that printing the whole box on your own will be more expensive and very time consuming. What I think a lot of us that jumped on the wagon (trust me I was a naysayer until I tried it) actually want to make the game as accessible as possible, time and time again it has been proven that mass micro sales will generate more profit than a few big expensive ones. Soon players will be able to get the dice they need without getting the box and the Adventures toolkit is all you need if your just going to play one of the 10 careers in that box so a new Adventures Toolkit every 2 - 3 months would be cool, but thats back to me thinkiing that some kind of POD would be good for this game. All in all is still have to say, I want a rewritten rulebook and then I want the guy that compiled the rules that the devs had written to be ashamed of his lack of editing skills, bad editor, bad.

I have to give credit where credits due and thank FFG for releasing the books on PDF. This goes a long way to solving my problem about accessability although I do much prefer owning books and still think that seperate book releases would be a good thing. Will download these when I have the time.

Now if we can get a "card book" and an A4 sized character sheet I will be happy.

Kaihlik