I'm sorry if the "entitled" casual players are shoving their varied gaming down your throats... You can go to a store and pick up a competitive game any day. Get multiple games in a day. Shove your competitive game down the throat of new players.

I'll just have to wait till the 1 player I have found willing just to have a non-ubercompetitive game with me will have his schedule match up with mine... Hopefully I'll be able to get a game in July sometime...

This right here is the cause of the tension between the two groups. There's even another thread on the front page right now about some poor guy getting out of the game altogether because he doesn't like 100/6 games, but that's the only kind of game he can get...

Well, I think the 100 point game is fine where it is and others don't and that's fine. Those people are more than welcome to play as they like. I really don't get the problem I suppose. Whether that's because I don't experience these issues myself, or for some other reason, well... Who cares really. For the record though I have paid cash to play in casual events and enjoyed my time. I'm not resistant to the idea of playing different types of games, I'm resistant to the idea that FFG should do anything at all to change the format of X-WIng. As I've said, the opportunity is there for FFG to make an expansion that would more closely suit the demands of the casual gamers, but I firmly believe there is no room for multiple levels of gameplay in XWing itself. Indeed, if X-Wing were divided into categories or formats it would destroy any opportunity for said expansion and it would further limit the possibilities for further growth. FFG did not make a mistake when they stated the game was to be played at 100 points.

Now, about the new player beat-down. I was standing in the shop waiting to play X-WIng, so was the kid. The shop owner said hey guys, you can play X-WIng with each other! So what I'm supposed to say no thank you and refuse awkwardly? The kid was already set up for a 100 point match. I gave him fair warning about the list and I tried to take it easy on him. Heck, I even let the poor guy drift off a few rocks and I was never rude or critical. He made mistakes concerning action order and checking arc and range out of phase. I didn't say anything because I felt that to point out the rules would have been rude in this case. He was obviously not enjoying having his ships shot so hard, and when he got to return fire he wasn't able to score much thanks to bad dice and modded greens. You can't play a game with someone and hold their hand. That's even worse than being a jerk because it tells the other player that you think they need kid gloves. When our game was done I said thanks, let the kid have a minute and then I walked up and complemented him on his Interceptor which he almost used as a pretty good blocker. I offered him some advice about Whisper and his build for her. I explained how VI was the card that really made her work and that even though my build seemed really good, he had actually made a solid choice in choosing Rec Spec for his Whisper. I also suggested that he try to play more often with Whisper and I explained initiative to him so that he could see why it was important to remember for future builds with her.

Why didn't I have fun? Well it wasn't much fun flying over rocks with my Phantoms and forgetting to grab Whispers free focus and in general trying as best I could to ... fly casual, but not look like it, if you know what I mean... I didn't come down looking for a pick-up game with a new player, I had a plan to get stomped on by JM5Ks and try to learn something. Instead I had to play a match I wasn't interested in really playing simply because the expectation was there that I should do so, either that or look like a snob. I tried to be gentle, I was forgiving of mistakes and I offered help and advice. There was no opportunistic beatdowns or foul play. We agreed to play X-Wing and we did. Am I miffed about kinda blowing 45 minutes of my precious day off when I was supposed to be practicing? Yeah I am, within the context of X-Wing that is. My ire extends to a very small portion of reality and is pretty inconsequential. It's an X-WIng problem, not a big life problem. Will I never play that kid again? No, of course we will play again. Will he be so willing to play against a tournament list now? Well maybe and maybe not. Maybe he is like me and now he'll go out and buy another Phantom and come back looking for revenge? That's what I would do. Was he ostracized by anything other than his own cellphone afterwards? No. Kids these days...

But what really bugs me is the fact that if I had refused a match, I would have been the competitive jerk. I played a match that was fair and honest and I won because of my experience. I'm still the competitive jerk somehow. Mind you this jerk status exists only in the minds of forum-goers and perhaps this new player and if I hadn't said anything no one would have known this happened. So what's the point? Well, by sharing this story now I've allowed myself to be painted up like the bad guy, and that's how most people are going to view my little story. They won't see how compromise can lead to a negative experience , only that I was too competitive to alter my desires. More to the point, there was no deception about what either of us wanted to play. He brought 100 points and so did I. He was looking to play the standard game and again so was I. Was I obnoxious or insulting or condescending? Not at all. But the image in the readers mind is one of a WAAC jerk abusing the inexperience of a new player and that is based solely on the misalignment of the image of the competitive scene by those who do not understand it.

Now that attitude, more than anything is what needs fixed in X-Wing. It is prevalent in all areas of the game and it's at it's worst here in the very home of X-WIng. Name almost any popular card, pilot, or game mechanic and you will find droves of complaints about those things posted here for all to read and be misinformed by. I remember first coming here and reading about TLTs and PWTs and thinking, holy hell I better not play those because I don't want to be associated with all those negative connotations! As a result I missed out on a lot of fun by not buying things based on what the perception of the online community was. Now the K-Wing is at the printer again and I still haven't gotten to play a Fat Han yet. TLT turned out to be fine and PWTs were not the easy-win button that everyone claimed they were. As it turned out, all those things that I had read about online turned out to be mostly anecdotal or straight up false. I'm seeing the same thing with Jumpmasters. We will see the same thing with Wave 9 too. Well, I mean it would be nice if we didn't have a scapegoat in Wave 9 and we could all move along with our lives and stop flaming the boards with anti-whatever posts. Sadly though I think Wave 9 will be complain, learn new tactics, and rinse repeat with the next wave.

I'm sorry if the "entitled" casual players are shoving their varied gaming down your throats... You can go to a store and pick up a competitive game any day. Get multiple games in a day. Shove your competitive game down the throat of new players.

I'll just have to wait till the 1 player I have found willing just to have a non-ubercompetitive game with me will have his schedule match up with mine... Hopefully I'll be able to get a game in July sometime...

See this is exactly what I mean. I want to play a match with the full game rules, against an opponent who can soundly beat me and I am the jerk. My competitive nature is killing X-Wing, obviously. Hey guess what dude, we all get to go to the game store and play. If you're so set in your own ubernoncompetitive ways that you can only get one match in a month with one person who is willing to play with you then maybe, just maaaybe X-Wing isn't to blame?

But no you're right. Hay guys, call FFG and have them put Imp Vets back On The Boat because some of us aren't ready to break out of our casual timid gamer shells yet. I think I would be just unstoppable if I had Imp Vets. Dual TIE Shuttles FFG? What were you thinking? Scimitar Tactician is going to stomp face so hard that no one will play Bombers anymore for fear of deadly reprisal. Can we actually add in a rule that if your opponent thinks your list is too good, you can't use it? Can we do that because man, if I could do that in a tournament, Paul Heaver look out! No list you fly is allowed because you're too good! Haha, I win! But wait, I just get a pink gumball like everyone else?

Yay! Groupthink! ZZZZT! Feed me to your society machine now please, I am sufficiently numb.

Also, cheap win because of optimized build? Have you ever played double Phantoms? Two shields and two hull. A single shot could take out half the list. The game could be over in two shots.

What even is this thread any more?

What even is this thread any more?

Competitive versus Casual, or Why We Can't Have Nice Things.

Maybe there is a mod team, but they've been dead for years still sitting in a forgotten office somewhere in the FFG HQ west wing, decaying in front of their computer screens. The look of shock and disgust still etched on their now crumbling faces...

I will never get the whole WAAC argument, or the other. Everyone plays how they want. Some tend to be more strict, but they are doing nothing wrong, and some prefer to be a go with the flow type, which is fine and dandy as well. I have played in enough tournaments, in enough cities, to know you most likely won't run across someone that is going make the game unfun, because most people are there to have fun and play a game that involves their fandom, or a game with a really good game structure, but more than likely both.

We've had players that pretend to be laid back to lull their opponent then suddenly become incredibly strict at the most advantageous moment. We've had players deliberately not call an opponent out on a recurring rules mistake so that they keep doing it, then suddenly call them out for it when it suits them best. We've had players ask for takebacks, get them, then refuse their opponent the same later on.

They aren't common but they certainly exist.

Why don't they just get good and stop making mistakes?

Neither player is respecting the rules in that situation. You can't claim the high ground when all of a sudden you decide now is the time to play by the rules.

Either enforce the rules or don't. Enforcing them only when it benefits you is just as sh*tty as expecting your opponent to let you break them whenever they see fit. Maybe more so because the latter probably is being duplicitous about it, where the former is.

I think that there isn't that big of a clash.. it's more like the casual players uniting against the few hard core players that claim they are somehow better.

I'm a tournament player, played in my fair share, and my friends and I usually play tournament type builds.

After this year regional I'm highly considering stepping down from the tournament scene and play more epic, casual type games, missions etc

The problem is though ( now this could just be me, or maybe something with human b nature) when I play games and build squads, I know what works with what. I know fel wants ptl, or veteran instinct advanced cloak on whisper, or ptl, daredevil tycho is nuts

What I think maybe hard for me is breaking away from this mentality. I know loading Luke out with Proton Torpedoes is not really an efficient use of pts. Neither is Imperial fett with the title a Torpedoes, with a mercenary co-pilot.

Truthfully, looking back I miss the days when my buddies and I would load up a bounty hunter with mercenary Co pilot or saboteur. Or using krasis with a HLC. Now when I list build, you know it's poe with x, or Dengar with x

This leaves me with epic and mission play. There is no "meta" build in epic that I'm aware of, and missions are a different design so meta build may not work

I think I'm terms of competitive play they need to break away from the standard 100 pt deathmatch, and introduce something like armada uses. A handful of missions, and each player can choose a couple from that and design their lists. This would be a nice change, and imo very possibly make ships otherwise not playable, playable

In a way, I think Krynn has pointed out a part of the problem (perhaps without meaning to). The game is designed at 100 pts/6 rocks. Sure, you CAN play other ways, but other than Epic ships, Wave after Wave of ships is designed for this "tournament" style of play. Even if you play an alternative style, you fall back on 100 point style builds and designs, because that is what makes sense. Going up to 125 points doesn't change much, but 300 points does. Other than the Huge Ships, there is not a single Wave of ships that has been released to encourage this style of play. So, there are 4 "casual" (huge) ships, and 36 "competitive" ships. But there are no starfighters and large ships that actively encourage their use in non-100-point-style play, and thus no smaller ships that engage in creating a "meta" for Epic (which I kinda think of as "casual") play. I would love to see and entire wave of small/large ships that are devoted to large fleet (200+ points) scenarios.

OTOH, I strongly suspect a "wasted " Wave designed for "fun" would seriously hork off many players, given how much a single "useless" news article made a number of people fume.

So, to go back to the OP, I think this creates a false dichotomy of "Do You Play At 100 Points or Do You Not" schism between players who like "official" format games and player that prefer to experiment and break the mold that has been established as the "norm" for play.

As a final point, it annoys me when players say that when lists don't win it's because you are not good enough with it yet. I, for one, am uninterested in a "requirement" to play a list for several months just so I can start to see wins. If the game has that steep of a learning curve, it is hardly "casual" in any sense of the word. Unless by "casual" you mean "I don't mind losing every game until I train like an X-Wing Olympian."

I would love to see and entire wave of small/large ships that are devoted to large fleet (200+ points) scenarios.

I tend to think of the large-base generics in this way...maybe two or three for 'escort' missions [ie, being escorted]...unfortunately, my regular opponent prefers the 100/6, so not much opportunity to try it out, but I live in hope

Clash might be a strong word but a competitive environment can force out casual players to the point that they stop playing and or change games.

In our locas gaming group it was very casual when I started, but as the game grew the playerbase grew tourmanets became bigger and happened more often. Naturally people started playing more compeditive lists and played more often, started to time casual matches and so on.

While the game grew and more and more people started alot of older players got a bit turned off by this and started to attend less and less and then vanished. I can understand some player that have family and job and only gets to play 1-2 games every other week if they are lucky and wants to try out some new ship or combo and some hardocre player meets them, times the match and just steamrolls them with a strong list and good playing skills. Compeditiveness makes the game grow and is very fun but it's also a good way to get casual players to stop playing.

I also see alot of new players being pushed into tournament thinking from the start with poeple giving them buying advice to play stuff like palp aces or crack swarm and while they are good lists there is so many fun ships to paly with then u start the game you don't have to jump into the highest meta list the first week u play. This often leads them to buying things fast then getting crushed in tournaments due to lack of experience. That can in turn lead to the player giving up because no one like to lose everytime no mather how casual you might be.

It's not a huge deal but I have noticed a clear divergence here. Some people are all about the competetive scene, others only care about casual play, and then there's people like me, somewhere in between. Anyway there just seems to be some flack that gets thrown around fairly regularly, from discounting lists that are meant to be casual, or claiming that competetive less thematic lists ruin the game. My opinion is it's just a game and I love both types of squads. But seriously, why the flack? I just don't see why the passions need run so high when we are all just sharing thoughts on a hobby. I don't know, it's just my crazy opinion for the day.

I'm a fun loving player that loves to win, but I only win when I'm taking it thematic and don't really care, haha! ....all other times I loose in great balls of flame! The difference between competitive and relaxed for me is beer: is any being enjoyed? If so, it's the latter....and I might just win.

Why can't casual players just run Casual level events and... do whatever you want! It says you can, so what exactly is the big deal?

When I say FFG should support more scenario play, what I mean is they should make more of them. Anyone can run an X-Wing event and do whatever they want, and if they want FFG to legitimize it, well... they have. It's called Casual Format and you literally have FFGs permission to do whatever you want, you can even buy an event kit and give away those exact same cards that us competitive types worry over.

The thing is that FFG doesn't design for casual play often enough. A 500-word Mission at the end of a rules booklet feels like an afterthought, and is essentially a one-hit-wonder without further FFG-based investment.

It's kinda like NASCAR designing all the cars and telling Sunday drivers "well, you could drive them on the street, so we have met your needs."

So let me preface by stating that 1) I'm very lucky in my gaming group because we're all friends who get along well together and share a similar point of view about what is fun and what is not and 2) I find the entire concept of going to a store to play people I've never met (or only met once or twice at the store) without first arranging a game via facebook or text, completely alien.

So X-Wing goes full on forge the narrative mode, and then what? You can't find a pick up game because no one wants to play your scenario or no one likes X mission because Y pilot is broken in that game with this card.

This is already the case. There are a handful of pilots and builds that are 'broken' in the 100/6 format and no one ever wants to play ANY scenario other than the 100/6 format.

The comment that "competitive gamers are more accepting than casual gamers because they don't care what you bring" misses the point. Competitive gamers might not care what ships you bring, but they're incredibly strict about playing the 100/6 format, which is IMO the greatest tragedy of X Wing. At the risk of beating a dead horse, there is so much range and scope in the Star Wars galaxy! I literally cannot fathom players not wanting to explore that enormous, rich and varied galaxy through X Wing. Doing bombing runs on capital ships, chasing down enemy shuttles and capturing officers, breaking through enemy blockades, laying traps, escorting transports, playing tiny games with duelling aces, playing massive games with multiple squadrons per side, there's just so much out there that I could never limit myself to a single scenario, with a single points value, with prescribed terrain EVERY game!

And the fact that everyone wants to play that format, because they were told it's the standard and because it's used in ALL the tournaments, makes it really hard for someone who wants to explore the rest of X Wing.

Because no one can just play the way they want.

Everyone has to play the way they and their opponent agree to play. And so many people are hardline, 100/6, my way or the highway that many casual gamers never get to play they way they want. I mean, there's half a dozen examples in this thread alone of people either getting turned away, or not wanting to play anything other than the tournament style games.

If you love the 100/6 game then more power to you. I agree, it's a lot of fun. But please, you're never going to have trouble finding that type of game and there'll never be a shortage of people trying to play that type of game, so if someone asks about playing a scenario or mission, or an Epic game or just trying a different points value, please try and be accommodating and realise that maybe, the 100/6 style game isn't the way this person really likes to play. You can get a 100/6 game in later, or tomorrow, or next week but if you say no to that person asking for a different type of game, they might go for a very long time before someone else says yes.

Why can't casual players just run Casual level events and... do whatever you want! It says you can, so what exactly is the big deal?

When I say FFG should support more scenario play, what I mean is they should make more of them. Anyone can run an X-Wing event and do whatever they want, and if they want FFG to legitimize it, well... they have. It's called Casual Format and you literally have FFGs permission to do whatever you want, you can even buy an event kit and give away those exact same cards that us competitive types worry over.

The thing is that FFG doesn't design for casual play enough. A 500-word Mission at the end of a rules booklet feels like the afterthought that it is. It would be like NASCAR designing cars and telling Sunday drivers "well, you could drive them on the street, so we have met your needs."

There's a few important things to point out here.

Having a standard format for x-wing matches is good for a few different reasons:

1. It lets people have fast and easy pickup games

2: It gives the developers a common reference point for balancing the game

3. It is an accessible format for new players while allowing for the development of nuanced tactics and a complex metagame in tournaments

The game that happens in the standard format is basic enough so that it provides a good baseline for just about any other way to play. People focus on it and try to find any and every way to push the limits of the game within that format, and many of those tactics, builds, etc are also effective in other gametypes, so the balancing done with the standard game in mind almost always works for other games.

Playing non-standard (aka casual) games is going to be more difficult, in terms of arranging the game, than playing a standard game. It's really incumbent on the players that want to play those types of games to promote them and find each other, and shouldn't expect everyone to conform to whatever type of game they're trying to play... on the other hand, this goes for everyone. I think its fine to assume that someone is looking for a standard game, but it's not so fine to insist that everyone plays the standard game - I don't see people doing that so much though. More some people expecting to play the 100/6 version of the game, and getting miffed when other people want to play the game differently, although this seems more like a hypothetical scenario rather than something I see happening a lot in stores and clubs.

If you want to play non-standard x-wing, you need to put in some effort beforehand, because it's not standard. People can't and won't know what to expect unless you let them know ahead of time, and they won't necessarily want to play if you don't sell that type of game ahead of time.

As far as FFG specifically supporting non-standard games, I'm all for it and I think there's a market for it. They have been giving us missions for a long time, and a few campaigns with the epic ships, but I'd like to see something more broadly applicable and replayable. Something like a sandbox style campaign, or an adaption of the Aturi cluster campaign.

If you want to play non-standard x-wing, you need to put in some effort beforehand, because it's not standard.

Technically, there are THREE standard formats for X-Wing:

2 players, 100 points, 3x3

2 players, 300 points 3x6

4 players, 200 points each, 3x6.

I see very few official FFG news snippets that talk about the latter 2 unless they are releasing the latest $100 Epic model. For example, it would be a very new thing to have FFG talk about the upcoming TIE/sf's role in a 300-point encounter.

If you want to play non-standard x-wing, you need to put in some effort beforehand, because it's not standard.

Technically, there are THREE standard formats for X-Wing:

2 players, 100 points, 3x3

2 players, 300 points 3x6

4 players, 200 points, 3x6.

I have yet to see an official FFG news snippet that talks about the latter 2 unless they are releasing the new $100 Epic model.

The 100/6 format is the standard, whether or not it is the only official way to play the game. There are epic tournaments but I don't think anyone is under the impression that the vast majority of games are not 100/6, that the 100/6 format is not what small and large ship expansions are balanced for, or that the 100/6 format is not where the game has been played at the highest level of intensity.

*keep in mind that I'm one of the biggest advocates for non-standard aka 'casual' games. I co-founded the only casually oriented x-wing podcast and I promote that way to play the game every week.

If you want to play non-standard x-wing, you need to put in some effort beforehand, because it's not standard.

Technically, there are THREE standard formats for X-Wing:

2 players, 100 points, 3x3

2 players, 300 points 3x6

4 players, 200 points each, 3x6.

Is the Escalation game (60/90/120/150 build-up) not a recognised format ?

(just asking...I've only seen it once at a LGS...)

If you want to play non-standard x-wing, you need to put in some effort beforehand, because it's not standard.

Technically, there are THREE standard formats for X-Wing:

2 players, 100 points, 3x3

2 players, 300 points 3x6

4 players, 200 points each, 3x6.

Is the Escalation game (60/90/120/150 build-up) not a recognised format ?

(just asking...I've only seen it once at a LGS...)

Yep. Forgot that one.

See this is exactly what I mean. I want to play a match with the full game rules, against an opponent who can soundly beat me and I am the jerk. My competitive nature is killing X-Wing, obviously. Hey guess what dude, we all get to go to the game store and play. If you're so set in your own ubernoncompetitive ways that you can only get one match in a month with one person who is willing to play with you then maybe, just maaaybe X-Wing isn't to blame?

But no you're right. Hay guys, call FFG and have them put Imp Vets back On The Boat because some of us aren't ready to break out of our casual timid gamer shells yet. I think I would be just unstoppable if I had Imp Vets. Dual TIE Shuttles FFG? What were you thinking? Scimitar Tactician is going to stomp face so hard that no one will play Bombers anymore for fear of deadly reprisal. Can we actually add in a rule that if your opponent thinks your list is too good, you can't use it? Can we do that because man, if I could do that in a tournament, Paul Heaver look out! No list you fly is allowed because you're too good! Haha, I win! But wait, I just get a pink gumball like everyone else?

Yay! Groupthink! ZZZZT! Feed me to your society machine now please, I am sufficiently numb.

Also, cheap win because of optimized build? Have you ever played double Phantoms? Two shields and two hull. A single shot could take out half the list. The game could be over in two shots.

So....what I am getting from you is that there is the "real" way to play. The "official" way to play. Everyone should just expect to play that...except for those that want to go to their own dark corners of the world to play their own non-standard games. Those games are fine...as long as they don' disrupt your standard games or rules for your standard game or expansions for your standard game. Just.....have FFG crank out stuff for standard play. If you want to play any variant of that, then it's fine....in your own dark corner. Just don't try to bother any "real" X-wing player in their standard format?

Is that how you feel? That's the general gist of what I'm hearing.

It's not a huge deal but I have noticed a clear divergence here. Some people are all about the competetive scene, others only care about casual play, and then there's people like me, somewhere in between. Anyway there just seems to be some flack that gets thrown around fairly regularly, from discounting lists that are meant to be casual, or claiming that competetive less thematic lists ruin the game. My opinion is it's just a game and I love both types of squads. But seriously, why the flack? I just don't see why the passions need run so high when we are all just sharing thoughts on a hobby. I don't know, it's just my crazy opinion for the day.

Not trying to start anything but Comp does to a certain extent effect the game. Every store or area has a "That Guy", you know the one who has to always Win. With the advent of the net the ability to find out what is "Competitive" become quick and easy. Meaning that the "That Guys" of the world could hear about the Comp builds, Brobots/PalpAce/U-Boats, and will then bring them to a casual setting. Now this doesnt happen 100% of the time but it does happen. Where as the goofy movie/fluff lists dont really ever effect competitive. This isnt saying either is bad or that Comp play should stop just that Comp play does have a "Trickle Down" effect on the game, for the better or worse.

Well actually...

It's perfectly normal to get miffed when you blow an easy move or flub a critical dice roll. What? We're supposed to have some kind of filter so that other people don't get offended? Yeah, okay.

I hate this brush that competitive players get painted with, as if every one of them is a big bawling man child who nerd-rages at the first sign of calamity. That's not true any more than the notion that casuals are all hug-lovers.

Here is a suggestion; stop looking for the stereotype and look for the person. You know, maybe buddy guy is mad that he lost at X-Wing because he had a rough day. Maybe that person is going through some emotional stress and their stress relief turned into more stress? Maybe the guy flying Trench Run really just wants to make friends because he doesn't have any? If you judge a person by how they play a game, or by how they react to success and failure, then what makes you so much better that you can pass that judgement?

Really, all this should boil down to one thing. Games are a way for people to come together to share common interests and they provide a stage for social interaction. Interaction of this kind allows us to test our compatibility with others and can form the basis of friendships, if we so choose. There is no line in the sand. I mean, come on guys, it's literally tiddly-winks here. Just because you're incompatible with someone socially doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't make them any more or less than anyone else.

Been gaming almost 20 years now and here is the thing. While not ALL tournaments players are the "bawling man-babies" or "Rules Lawyers" that is thrown at the Tournament crowd it only takes ONE run in with them at a tournament to give a person a bad vibe and to not enjoy the rest of the day. There are cool Tournie guys and some ******* Fluffbunnies, BUT the average is that there are more of the WAAC guys in Tournies than there are in the Casual situations. Hence why Tournament play has earned that label.

Tournaments should be a extension of the base game. Your playing casually why not chip in some money and get some prizes. When you have an ENTIRELY different situation and style in the Tournament group as the Casual group is when the issue flairs up. It should never be about bringing X list that wins 75% of the time but bringing what you like and flying it the best you can. Problem is that some human beings will ALWAYS take the easy way out.

Why can't casual players just run Casual level events and... do whatever you want! It says you can, so what exactly is the big deal?

When I say FFG should support more scenario play, what I mean is they should make more of them. Anyone can run an X-Wing event and do whatever they want, and if they want FFG to legitimize it, well... they have. It's called Casual Format and you literally have FFGs permission to do whatever you want, you can even buy an event kit and give away those exact same cards that us competitive types worry over.

The thing is that FFG doesn't design for casual play often enough. A 500-word Mission at the end of a rules booklet feels like an afterthought, and is essentially a one-hit-wonder without further FFG-based investment.

It's kinda like NASCAR designing all the cars and telling Sunday drivers "well, you could drive them on the street, so we have met your needs."

Well actually NASCAR used to be about racing stock production model cars and in fact if you wanted to enter a car into NASCAR you had to sell a certain number by a certain date leading to the term "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday". NASCAR was really cool back then.

Neat tidbit of stock car info for ya, but anyways...

@ heychadwick

That part you quoted was in respond to someone making some pretty ridiculous statements about my actions forcing people into competitive play, so please bear that in mind when you digest that post. I was speaking, or typing rather, in response to that and I think you can tell I got a little heated. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to enjoy a hobby and if I seem like I am pushing for all competitive play then you're wrong. What I am saying is that X-Wing is designed from a certain perspective, in this case it's the 100 point head on timed match. When designers sit down to create new things they start from this point, this assumption, and they work within that guideline to create what is hopefully a balanced addition to the format. X-Wing is designed to be played at 100 points over a set period of time. That is the game. That's how it was made. This isn't my opinion, it's fact just look at the rules. This isn't about right or wrong ways to play, it's a simple work ethic, a design strategy that allows X-Wing to be this balanced and fair game. If we didn't have this standard design principle in place we would not have the playability that we enjoy today. There would be tiers of ships and this would have to be the case because how can a ship designed for casual play stand up to a ship designed for competitive use. If there was in fact a dedicated design ethos centered around casual play that had to co-exist with the current one we would see more disparity between playstyles and the divide would only widen.

One last time, just so I can be sure I've said it clearly. If FFG wants to capitalize on the more casual side of X-Wing then all they need to do is release a stand-alone rules add-on to X-Wing that caters to those players. You wouldn't need to buy any repackaged ships or replace anything in your current collection, just a book with new rules and scenarios that allow players to explore the Star Wars universe more openly in the context of spaceship combat. If I was a betting man I'd say something like this is already probably in the works.

I shared that story to troll people, I'll admit it. There were no tensions afterwards, we conversed as normal people do, but there was a moment or two in the game where we could both tell we were mismatched. We both handled it like adults, though with the younger generation you can see they struggle with their emotions more. The only misconceptions anyone had about the entire affair were born here when I was attacked for forcing my game on people. So you see, really this schism exists only online.

When designers sit down to create new things they start from this point, this assumption, and they work within that guideline to create what is hopefully a balanced addition to the format. X-Wing is designed to be played at 100 points over a set period of time. That is the game. That's how it was made. This isn't my opinion, it's fact just look at the rules. This isn't about right or wrong ways to play, it's a simple work ethic, a design strategy that allows X-Wing to be this balanced and fair game.

This is true, but I don't really see how it's actually relevant to the discussion to hand.

Many ships are poo in the 100/6 format. Many of those ships get better in larger games, or games that have objectives other than 'kill them all'.

Let's be honest, the game isn't 'balanced' at 100 points. There's an established meta of three or four builds that are more or less balanced, and then there's everything else under them, and then there's the bottom tier 'fun' builds. That's not balance.

The same is true of ANY points value. You don't damage the integrity of the game system by playing at 150 points, or 75 points. You simply shift the goal posts. I mean, just off the top of my head, the X Wing gains a boost in a 3x6 play area because it's dial is more open than say, a Y Wing or B Wing. It can redeploy more quickly from one area to another.

One last time, just so I can be sure I've said it clearly. If FFG wants to capitalize on the more casual side of X-Wing then all they need to do is release a stand-alone rules add-on to X-Wing that caters to those players.

I disagree strongly. The current game caters perfectly well to casual gamers. In fact, I think it caters better to casual gaming than it does to tournaments. Once you strip the Star Wars skin away, you're left with a fairly mediocre game IMO.

What makes X Wing difficult to use for casual gamers, are the competitive gamers. Since I posted last, there's been MORE people on this thread saying "I never get a chance to play anything other than 100/6". THAT'S the problem. The fact that the overwhelming majority of players close ranks and flat out refuse to play ANYTHING other than 100/6.

It's easy to say "well, just play how you want" when everyone already plays the way you want. It's easy to get a game when everyone plays the way you like to play. It's much harder to get a game of 150 points than 100 points. It's much harder to get an Epic game, or a 500 point cinematic game, or a 100 point game with an objective/scenario. It's much harder to get people to play ANYTHING other than 100/6 and frankly it's saddening that you think it's an appropriate response to tell people to try a different game altogether, or to just go and play with other people (when those other likeminded people are few and far between) instead of just trying some new stuff everyone once in a while.

Heroes of the Aturi Cluster is great, not just because it is lots of fun and really polished with super high production values, but because it's a known entity and people have heard about it. It gets people talking and thinking about different ways to use their little ships. Imagine if FFG put some meaningful support behind casual play formats, how that might encourage some of the player base to try things other than 100/6. It's not like 100/6 will ever go away, but currently there's a huge disparity between that format, and everything else, and I think it's incumbent on the majority to help the minority out sometimes. Yes, the casual players absolutely need to go out of their way to try and arrange games of the type they want to play, but it's all worthless if the 100/6 players close ranks and refuse point blank to play anything else. We NEED you guys to display some generosity and curiosity and have a go at some other formats just every now and then. For some of us, it's the only time we'll ever get a game in.

You wouldn't need to buy any repackaged ships or replace anything in your current collection, just a book with new rules and scenarios that allow players to explore the Star Wars universe more openly in the context of spaceship combat. If I was a betting man I'd say something like this is already probably in the works.

I shared that story to troll people, I'll admit it. There were no tensions afterwards, we conversed as normal people do, but there was a moment or two in the game where we could both tell we were mismatched. We both handled it like adults, though with the younger generation you can see they struggle with their emotions more. The only misconceptions anyone had about the entire affair were born here when I was attacked for forcing my game on people. So you see, really this schism exists only online.

Something that was mentioned above - the Escalation tournament - any thoughts on why that's not more popular ?

I've never played in one, but it feels like just the thing to provide an alternative to 100/6 - the lists you build surely have to be quite radically different as there has to be a balance between spending all or saving at each stage...is there any way IT could be a bridge between 100/6 and other formats ?

Cheers

I have played both tournaments and large cinematic games with friends. My personal preference I is 400pt. X 4 players with moving asteroids can be really fun. This is a great rules system. But, don't let the tournament play limitations get in your way for casual play.

Chucknuckle, you say it's on me to change the way I play so that you can play too, but you are the one who won't play a game unless I meet your standard. Do you see the problem in that?

I'm under no obligation to do anything with my time other than what I want and that's a pretty casual attitude. I don't browbeat people with it in real life, I just do what I want to do and if I don't want to participate then it's fine. It's not a reflection on anything but what I desire at that moment. In person I'm often willing to open up around others and try new things after a time of getting to know everyone, but that's not a given. I'm not obligated to do that. But it seems like this casual attitude expects that I should cater to it right now, under it's terms. So what if the casual attitude dictates that I can't play double Phantoms? Do you really think it's acceptable to ask another person to walk back home and get different toys to play with, otherwise they can't play?