Well with the discussion that is now 14 pages long on the do you respect uBoats players, I'm curious what the math wingers say. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I'm just simply curious. I don't want a huge debate. I just personally want to hear what the numbers are. I'm curious what the math experts at this game think, as I feel their numbers and opinions matter

The game in its current state, not counting anything after Imperial veterans (since that's basically out now) is the Jumpmaster overcosted? Undercosted or on par foe the coarse? If it is over/under costed by how many points?

I ask simply because I feel it's undercosted. Many seem to feel that way, while others may not. Seems to be a lot of debate about it, so I'm just curious what the actual math numbers are like.

My apologies if this has been discussed already somewhere.

The numbers aren't good for fans of ships below 4999

Well with the discussion that is now 14 pages long on the do you respect uBoats players, I'm curious what the math wingers say. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I'm just simply curious. I don't want a huge debate. I just personally want to hear what the numbers are. I'm curious what the math experts at this game think, as I feel their numbers and opinions matter

The game in its current state, not counting anything after Imperial veterans (since that's basically out now) is the Jumpmaster overcosted? Undercosted or on par foe the coarse? If it is over/under costed by how many points?

I ask simply because I feel it's undercosted. Many seem to feel that way, while others may not. Seems to be a lot of debate about it, so I'm just curious what the actual math numbers are like.

My apologies if this has been discussed already somewhere.

Id say its a combination of thngs. Now what Im about to say COULD be considered it being Overpriced but Id say its priced right for stats and dial, its the Upgrade slots that throw it off. If it didnt have the EPT it would make it much less agravating in the sense that youd have to be in range to Lock as opposed to just focus and then hope/wait for your opponent to fly into range. Second is the double torpedo slot, its the only large base I can think of with a double ordnance slot that doesnt require a title. If it had had only one Torpedo slot you would still see U-boats, but their damage potential would be cut in HALF if not more. As others have said when a ship that isnt a dedicated ordnance ship can do it better than ships dedicated to ordnance then somthing is off.

Well with the discussion that is now 14 pages long on the do you respect uBoats players, I'm curious what the math wingers say. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I'm just simply curious. I don't want a huge debate. I just personally want to hear what the numbers are. I'm curious what the math experts at this game think, as I feel their numbers and opinions matter

The game in its current state, not counting anything after Imperial veterans (since that's basically out now) is the Jumpmaster overcosted? Undercosted or on par foe the coarse? If it is over/under costed by how many points?

I ask simply because I feel it's undercosted. Many seem to feel that way, while others may not. Seems to be a lot of debate about it, so I'm just curious what the actual math numbers are like.

My apologies if this has been discussed already somewhere.

Id say its a combination of thngs. Now what Im about to say COULD be considered it being Overpriced but Id say its priced right for stats and dial, its the Upgrade slots that throw it off. If it didnt have the EPT it would make it much less agravating in the sense that youd have to be in range to Lock as opposed to just focus and then hope/wait for your opponent to fly into range. Second is the double torpedo slot, its the only large base I can think of with a double ordnance slot that doesnt require a title. If it had had only one Torpedo slot you would still see U-boats, but their damage potential would be cut in HALF if not more. As others have said when a ship that isnt a dedicated ordnance ship can do it better than ships dedicated to ordnance then somthing is off.

At least require a title, even the firespray needed a title. Doesn't seem right

Even so, I'm just curious what the math expert say. I'm not sure if they take upgrades into consideration, or just stats and dial. No idea what formula they use, but curious as to point wise what should it be, giving the information they know

Much of what makes it to the top of competitive play is going to be undercosted when analyzed with math.

Much of what makes it to the top of competitive play is going to be undercosted when analyzed with math.

When the most prized resource is points, those spending the most points will win. And flying something undercosted is free points.

It is a PWT therfore it is broken pettition FFG to ban all PWTs in tournaments _{speling was intentional}

Well for the first time in the history of X-wing it brought the torpedo upgrade slot into use and without a Chardann like removal upgrade. However I think it puts into perspective the power of EPT slots especially on non-unique ships that do not have pilot abilities. Now with most unique pilots you will want an EPT that works great with the pilot ability such as Soontir and PTL or Corran and Predator. Reason is when you spend points on a unique pilot not only are you spending for the pilot skill but the ability as well (such as Nera Dantels with is 2 points more than a Dagger Squadron but only 1 pilot skill higher). However take a non-unique pilot and you are not building on the ability but on the other upgrades, so there is no loss of efficiency when EPTs are put on non-unique pilots.

Well with the discussion that is now 14 pages long on the do you respect uBoats players, I'm curious what the math wingers say. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I'm just simply curious. I don't want a huge debate. I just personally want to hear what the numbers are. I'm curious what the math experts at this game think, as I feel their numbers and opinions matter

The game in its current state, not counting anything after Imperial veterans (since that's basically out now) is the Jumpmaster overcosted? Undercosted or on par foe the coarse? If it is over/under costed by how many points?

I ask simply because I feel it's undercosted. Many seem to feel that way, while others may not. Seems to be a lot of debate about it, so I'm just curious what the actual math numbers are like.

My apologies if this has been discussed already somewhere.

Id say its a combination of thngs. Now what Im about to say COULD be considered it being Overpriced but Id say its priced right for stats and dial, its the Upgrade slots that throw it off. If it didnt have the EPT it would make it much less agravating in the sense that youd have to be in range to Lock as opposed to just focus and then hope/wait for your opponent to fly into range. Second is the double torpedo slot, its the only large base I can think of with a double ordnance slot that doesnt require a title. If it had had only one Torpedo slot you would still see U-boats, but their damage potential would be cut in HALF if not more. As others have said when a ship that isnt a dedicated ordnance ship can do it better than ships dedicated to ordnance then somthing is off.

Agreed.

At least require a title, even the firespray needed a title. Doesn't seem right

Even so, I'm just curious what the math expert say. I'm not sure if they take upgrades into consideration, or just stats and dial. No idea what formula they use, but curious as to point wise what should it be, giving the information they know

Also I HATE the Idea of "Math Wing". I played Star Trek Attack Wing and the thing is that game was Formulaic. A ship with 4 Attack 1 Evade 5 Hull and 4 Shields would cost you 28 points. Dial/Upgrades/Abilites dont mean **** to points cost in that game. What this did was make it where a ship with a better dial and upgrades but the same stats was costed the same as the ship with the shittier ability and upgrades. Yes you HAVE to assign a point to a ship but Im glad there is nothing like "this ability is worth roughly 3 points" kind of math behind it.

Also I actually dislike the idea of any small base being MORE expensive than a Large. I mean the basic DEFENDER is 5 points MORE for a dial that isnt much better and for a extra evade dice. That is nowhere NEAR worth 5 points. If they where to EVER use a "Formula" Id rather it be a minimum cost for Large ships and a maximum for small. Smalls cost no more than 30 base and larges are 30+. Of course that would require a entirely NEW edition with small based ships getting reduced in cost and Larges being increased.

It is a PWT therfore it is broken pettition FFG to ban all PWTs in tournaments _{speling was intentional}

Well for the first time in the history of X-wing it brought the torpedo upgrade slot into use and without a Chardann like removal upgrade. However I think it puts into perspective the power of EPT slots especially on non-unique ships that do not have pilot abilities. Now with most unique pilots you will want an EPT that works great with the pilot ability such as Soontir and PTL or Corran and Predator. Reason is when you spend points on a unique pilot not only are you spending for the pilot skill but the ability as well (such as Nera Dantels with is 2 points more than a Dagger Squadron but only 1 pilot skill higher). However take a non-unique pilot and you are not building on the ability but on the other upgrades, so there is no loss of efficiency when EPTs are put on non-unique pilots.

Remove the EPT from the scout and the Trip U-Boat plays quit a bit different. Instead of Focusing and waiting for enemies to walk into range you HAVE to get into range and lock. Then you have to pray you didnt move to much and they end up range one. Right now with Deadeye you can kind of move the boats slow to keep the range and guarantee the ordnance launches, somthing dedicated BOMBERS cant do, most of the time.

I don't have the time to properly read MJ's mathwing, so even though I could tell you what exactly his math would say given time, I can't.

However, I would suggest that it has a high jousting value. This is mainly due to its ability to fire 2 reliable 4-hit shots per game, then a 2 attack. So, it's a hard one to work out because of this erratic damage over time, but it has an acceptable statline for its cost, with a fairly good dial.

It has some very good options, and some OK options - it's asymmetrical so hard to calculate. I'd probably go for treating the dial as halfway between the colours of the move. E.g the Sloop's are white and red, so MJ's value would be halfway between the red Sloop value and white Sloop value.

Its upgrade bar and actions are also good, meaning it probably has a pretty high non-jousting coefficient too.

All of this means I think it's pretty efficient at jousting and will suggest being undercosted (as is everything that sees play to an extent). However, this is unrealistic because you shouldn't be jousting a torpmaster!

Also I actually dislike the idea of any small base being MORE expensive than a Large. I mean the basic DEFENDER is 5 points MORE for a dial that isnt much better and for a extra evade dice. That is nowhere NEAR worth 5 points. If they where to EVER use a "Formula" Id rather it be a minimum cost for Large ships and a maximum for small. Smalls cost no more than 30 base and larges are 30+. Of course that would require a entirely NEW edition with small based ships getting reduced in cost and Larges being increased.

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the fact that the defender is now one of the most efficient ships in the game - at 28 points, a 1/3/3/3 statline, white K turn and a free evade on 8/17 of its moves (the better 8 of them) with the now-almost-mandatory title. Maths is massively important in a game like this, and maximum values for ships would hurt the game.

My suggestion for Jumpmasters is: 1. Don't change them. They aren't that broken. Or, if anything really needs to happen, it's to increase their cosT BY 1 or maybe 2 points. Removing their EPT would see them fade into insignificance, because they now can't use R4 easily, and they need to be in range 3 after their move (meaning it's easier for the opponent to arc dodge or close to R1) and they have to declare their target meaning they can easily be countered.

The jumpmaster is undercosted, and the designers have stated that they purposely costed it aggressively, but that they went a little too far.

If you compare the jumpmaster to the Kwing. The jumpmaster costs 1 more pt when PS equivalent, has same attack and HP but has +1 agi. Thats pretty crazy.

But honestly, the efficient stats are only half of it, with the right upgrade slots (ept, 2 torps, and salvaged astro) creating a perfect storm.

The ept was a mistake. The generics with ept is a scum theme, but they should have been +2 points and PS5 then.

All that said, scouts are strong but they dont really break the game and they keep 4 tlt in check.

It is a PWT therfore it is broken pettition FFG to ban all PWTs in tournaments _{speling was intentional}

Well for the first time in the history of X-wing it brought the torpedo upgrade slot into use and without a Chardann like removal upgrade. However I think it puts into perspective the power of EPT slots especially on non-unique ships that do not have pilot abilities. Now with most unique pilots you will want an EPT that works great with the pilot ability such as Soontir and PTL or Corran and Predator. Reason is when you spend points on a unique pilot not only are you spending for the pilot skill but the ability as well (such as Nera Dantels with is 2 points more than a Dagger Squadron but only 1 pilot skill higher). However take a non-unique pilot and you are not building on the ability but on the other upgrades, so there is no loss of efficiency when EPTs are put on non-unique pilots.

Remove the EPT from the scout and the Trip U-Boat plays quit a bit different. Instead of Focusing and waiting for enemies to walk into range you HAVE to get into range and lock. Then you have to pray you didnt move to much and they end up range one. Right now with Deadeye you can kind of move the boats slow to keep the range and guarantee the ordnance launches, somthing dedicated BOMBERS cant do, most of the time.

Funny thing is when you look at an upgrade like Deadeye you realize it works best on a lower pilot skill. At the time it came out that really wasn't a significant factor as all EPTs were on unique pilots with a high pilot skill (exception of ships with little to none upgrades). If you look at torpedo boats it plays very similar to an YT-2400 w/outrider+HLC with some notable exceptions. It is not dependent on a unique pilot/upgrade so you can have more than just one and it has a primary weapon attack at range 1.

Now for those dedicated bombers lets say you give Gamma squadron an EPT. Now they can have deadeye but the big drawback is that they still are restricted to attacks inside arc. While the focus-attack is not as much of a risk as target lock-attack still if you have no enemy ships in arc the focus was a wasted action. Where as for the JM5K as long as you are inside range 3 the ship can take a PWT shot at you and spend the focus to modify dice results.

Well with the discussion that is now 14 pages long on the do you respect uBoats players, I'm curious what the math wingers say. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I'm just simply curious. I don't want a huge debate. I just personally want to hear what the numbers are. I'm curious what the math experts at this game think, as I feel their numbers and opinions matter

The game in its current state, not counting anything after Imperial veterans (since that's basically out now) is the Jumpmaster overcosted? Undercosted or on par foe the coarse? If it is over/under costed by how many points?

I ask simply because I feel it's undercosted. Many seem to feel that way, while others may not. Seems to be a lot of debate about it, so I'm just curious what the actual math numbers are like.

My apologies if this has been discussed already somewhere.

Id say its a combination of thngs. Now what Im about to say COULD be considered it being Overpriced but Id say its priced right for stats and dial, its the Upgrade slots that throw it off. If it didnt have the EPT it would make it much less agravating in the sense that youd have to be in range to Lock as opposed to just focus and then hope/wait for your opponent to fly into range. Second is the double torpedo slot, its the only large base I can think of with a double ordnance slot that doesnt require a title. If it had had only one Torpedo slot you would still see U-boats, but their damage potential would be cut in HALF if not more. As others have said when a ship that isnt a dedicated ordnance ship can do it better than ships dedicated to ordnance then somthing is off.

Agreed.

At least require a title, even the firespray needed a title. Doesn't seem right

Even so, I'm just curious what the math expert say. I'm not sure if they take upgrades into consideration, or just stats and dial. No idea what formula they use, but curious as to point wise what should it be, giving the information they know

Also I HATE the Idea of "Math Wing". I played Star Trek Attack Wing and the thing is that game was Formulaic. A ship with 4 Attack 1 Evade 5 Hull and 4 Shields would cost you 28 points. Dial/Upgrades/Abilites dont mean **** to points cost in that game. What this did was make it where a ship with a better dial and upgrades but the same stats was costed the same as the ship with the shittier ability and upgrades. Yes you HAVE to assign a point to a ship but Im glad there is nothing like "this ability is worth roughly 3 points" kind of math behind it.

Also I actually dislike the idea of any small base being MORE expensive than a Large. I mean the basic DEFENDER is 5 points MORE for a dial that isnt much better and for a extra evade dice. That is nowhere NEAR worth 5 points. If they where to EVER use a "Formula" Id rather it be a minimum cost for Large ships and a maximum for small. Smalls cost no more than 30 base and larges are 30+. Of course that would require a entirely NEW edition with small based ships getting reduced in cost and Larges being increased.

To summarize: Math isn't bad for a game as long as it's good math, and Attack Wing used third grade math for a college/grad level problem (Although you could probably get by with High School Honors Math and playtesting if you don't need perfection*)

On topic: Even a 26 point scout would be a completely different animal. That would make 3 plasma+EM scouts impossible, and remove the initiative bid from the current mirror build. Frankly, my gut says that's probably the right price- Even if it did push the boundary a little, it wouldn't be spammable the way it is at 25.

*And for the record, in business, good enough quickly is usually better than perfect after a long time and lots of effort. I know that sounds awful, and I don't actually like that myself especially when people stretch the boundary of "good enough," but history has proven that the people who shoot for perfect usually get left behind in the dust by those who settled for functional.

The JumpMaster is not underpriced; the U-boat configuration is.

By which I mean Deadeye is a problem, because it wasn't designed in an environment with efficient, effective ordnance. R4 Agromech and Deadeye are an underpriced combination for sure, and both Proton Torpedoes and Plasma Torpedoes benefit a great deal from that extra modifier.

By which I mean Deadeye is a problem, because it wasn't designed in an environment with efficient, effective ordnance.

this made me laugh

because it's 100% right

though, to be more correct, it wasn't designed in an environment with ordnance that was designed to be efficient and effective *

imo, R4 aggro is the sticking point. That little guy makes the jumpmasters what they are, and while Deadeye is techncially the lynchpin of the build (r4 wouldn't even work without it) the modifiers that r4 gives are what make the Scouts so scary. Hell, even just crutching on their crappy PWT, at range 1 they tend to murder the living hell out of just about everything short of a palp ace (and even those thread lightly when there's a 4lom aboard)

hell, I played a game this Tuesday where some truly awful dice removed Xizor and set a horrible lategame of 1 Scout v Whisper and Dark Curse. Thought about conceding at this point

turns out a range 1 r4 aggro PWT with 4lom was all we needed to stop the Phantom menace; no fat han required

r4 is a gloriously powerful card, one that I'm still surprised to see didn't get more attention back in wave 7 with the TLT thug. Little bastard could reliably stick damage on motherloving regenerating Poe thanks to the might of those modifiers

and Ordnance without re-rolls is pretty underwhelming

I suppose you're choosing to ignore the fact that the defender is now one of the most efficient ships in the game - at 28 points, a 1/3/3/3 statline, white K turn and a free evade on 8/17 of its moves (the better 8 of them) with the now-almost-mandatory title. Maths is massively important in a game like this, and maximum values for ships would hurt the game.

I'm not sure about that, MJ has repeatedly stated that his number reflect the "jousting" numbers and does not take into account the maneuver dial, white K Turns and such. The math, or so I'm been told, reflects each ships efficiency if they were to line up and fire. The differences in their abilities, that don't directly affect this attack and their maneuvers would still put the overall value up and down.

The game math seems 'massively important' to balance the tournament scene; but even then is end up being subjective after the line up and shoot metrics. For a fun game all that is needed is for the points to be close enough so you're not stomped. Of course in X-Wing there are still synergistic combos that simply dominated poor ones regardless of someone's math.

Do we really need another "sky is falling" thread?

Do we really need another "sky is falling" thread?

Then why do you even waste your time posting

Back under the bridge troll

As stated in my original post I'm curious for my own personal reasons.

There is no sky is falling thread here.

I can understand reading and comprehension is difficult for some, so I won't hold it against Ya

Id say its a combination of thngs. Now what Im about to say COULD be considered it being Overpriced but Id say its priced right for stats and dial, its the Upgrade slots that throw it off. If it didnt have the EPT it would

be borderline useless banta-crap.

that's it.

Id say its a combination of thngs. Now what Im about to say COULD be considered it being Overpriced but Id say its priced right for stats and dial, its the Upgrade slots that throw it off. If it didnt have the EPT it would

be borderline useless banta-crap.

that's it.

well not so much

unlike the Fringer, the scout is very well priced to be a massive pain in the ass blocker

the ept helps it, ofc, (intimidation, adaptability) but it doesn't strictly need it to block things

it needs deadeye to enable the current uboat build, but without r4 aggromech that build wouldn't be nearly as good

the power of the uboat is a combination of the two upgrades, but that's something anyone could have figured out when they first saw Dengar spoiled

due to it being a combination between two specific upgrades, however, it means that the ept slot by itself doesn't actually matter unless there's another "broken" JM5k build available that I'm unaware of

apart from Torpscout, the only other generic Jumpmasters I've seen are bumpmasters and they live and die on Intelligence Agent and Feedback Array ; not so much the ept

The bumpmaster is a really interesting ship with a lot of ways to build more stuff onto it that makes it more of a pain to bump but yeah the combination of slots and powerful alpha strike ability us what makes the ship. It also has some ability to end games with its bumping ability and pwt.

Note that a lot of the pros moved onto the overclocked r4 to make the points back and have more defense.

So no body had those real numbers for the ship how it stands in the meta?

Kinda getting sidetracked here again...

theres literally one actual mathwinger on the forums, and he does not share his secrets

I don't Want to know his secrets, I'm just curious as to what should the real cost of it be. Given all that we know

I don't Want to know his secrets, I'm just curious as to what should the real cost of it be. Given all that we know

He posts a lot less openly these days, so it may be a while before he mentions it in passing or a podcast.

We'll see, I suppose.

But yeah, it's not the base hull that's priced wrong, it's that it has the EPT. That it's PS3 doesn't help either, given that it means it auto-bids past most small-ship generics, but that's just an emphasiser of the EPT to begin with.