I think the real issue here, is that nearly everyone knows that the X-Wing still needs something, but we can't agree on exactly what. But maybe the real issue is simply that the game X-Wing has changed so much over the last 8 waves that a ship like the X-Wing which is a pure jouster simply can never be truly viable in this game.

Good point - sadly....

In some ways though, the x-wing isn't all that different to any other ship in the game - plenty of options, but only a couple of genuinely optimal ones when it comes tourney time. Biggs has come in and out of vogue a few times but always seems to find a way to make a comeback - Wes seems to be having a minor renaissance at the moment - maybe that kind of scenario should be good enough.

After all, is that so different for the other ships?

The TIE Advanced has been "fixed" but nonetheless outside of AC Tempests and ATC Vader, what other builds do you see?

How often do you see a named A-Wing pilot that isn't Jake - or Brobots that aren't B and C?

Name any ship type and there will always be pilots that are overlooked and pilots that have some utility.

But anyway - moving back to the topic - perhaps another approach to capitalise on the IA "fix" would be to produce a range of unique astromechs that are specifically tailored to each of the unique pilot's abilities - cost them according to how good that particular ability is - but offer a discount if it's equipped on a specific named pilot

A 3-4 point turtle-bot that's 1 point on Biggs (when you perform a focus action assign an evade token to your ship) - a similarly priced Recon-spec-bot for Garven -4 point Uber-arc-dodging bot that's only a point on Wedge ....... or something like that.

Biggs has come in and out of vogue a few times but always seems to find a way to make a comeback

Let's be accurate though, if Biggs was on any other ship, he'd be OP'ed most likely. Imagine Bigs on a B-Wing or K-Wing for example. Biggs is not and never is a reason to consider the X-Wing viable, because the only reason anyone takes him is to protect the other ships for a few turns.

Wes seems to be having a minor renaissance at the moment

Wes is good, but consider how strong the pilot abilities of Luke or Wedge really are... It says something that they seen so rarely considering what they offer.

But on the other hand... How much of it is due to groupthink and self fulling prophecy? Someone won a major event with Wes, Wedge and Biggs, so it can be done. Was that a fluke or was it that what 'everyone knows' isn't really true anymore. I have to admit when it comes time to build a list for a tournament T-65's aren't often my first choice, despite the fact that it's my favorite ship in any fiction, and I often put one in anyway. How much of that is because I believe they're not good and how much is because they're really not good?

That said IMO I think the X-Wing still lacks something, I'm not quite sure what but I just feel like it's still under the power curve even if the math-wing says it's about right in terms of jousting ability, and again perhaps that's the real problem jousting in of itself is an inherently inferior tactic and something that's a pure jouster will never be effective because jousting is just a bad choice.

I think the real issue here, is that nearly everyone knows that the X-Wing still needs something, but we can't agree on exactly what. But maybe the real issue is simply that the game X-Wing has changed so much over the last 8 waves that a ship like the X-Wing which is a pure jouster simply can never be truly viable in this game.

Good point - sadly....

In some ways though, the x-wing isn't all that different to any other ship in the game - plenty of options, but only a couple of genuinely optimal ones when it comes tourney time. Biggs has come in and out of vogue a few times but always seems to find a way to make a comeback - Wes seems to be having a minor renaissance at the moment - maybe that kind of scenario should be good enough.

After all, is that so different for the other ships?

The TIE Advanced has been "fixed" but nonetheless outside of AC Tempests and ATC Vader, what other builds do you see?

How often do you see a named A-Wing pilot that isn't Jake - or Brobots that aren't B and C?

Name any ship type and there will always be pilots that are overlooked and pilots that have some utility.

But anyway - moving back to the topic - perhaps another approach to capitalise on the IA "fix" would be to produce a range of unique astromechs that are specifically tailored to each of the unique pilot's abilities - cost them according to how good that particular ability is - but offer a discount if it's equipped on a specific named pilot

A 3-4 point turtle-bot that's 1 point on Biggs (when you perform a focus action assign an evade token to your ship) - a similarly priced Recon-spec-bot for Garven -4 point Uber-arc-dodging bot that's only a point on Wedge ....... or something like that.

Decent generics often seem to get ignored in favor of more uniques for fluff reasons. I know there is more limited design space if FFG are going to rigidly stick to the aim of not replicating card abilities, but imaginative astromechs are still possible. Rebels definitely need some better ones.

I'd agree with that a 2 point RecSpecMech would be a real bonus to T-65s and BFFs with Garven. I'd accept it being unique, but as a generic it would be better. Enhances generic Es which have more use for focus with 3 greens and Xs would gain flexibility from one of their 2 possible actions. Less useful on Ys, but warthog builds might use it

Reverse Agromech: When you spend a TL you may gain a focus token. 2 point generic, with utility for ordnance or defense. Wouldn't be OP on anything that can carry an astromech and buffs ordnance Ys.

I think the real issue here, is that nearly everyone knows that the X-Wing still needs something, but we can't agree on exactly what. But maybe the real issue is simply that the game X-Wing has changed so much over the last 8 waves that a ship like the X-Wing which is a pure jouster simply can never be truly viable in this game.

Good point - sadly....

In some ways though, the x-wing isn't all that different to any other ship in the game - plenty of options, but only a couple of genuinely optimal ones when it comes tourney time. Biggs has come in and out of vogue a few times but always seems to find a way to make a comeback - Wes seems to be having a minor renaissance at the moment - maybe that kind of scenario should be good enough.

After all, is that so different for the other ships?

The TIE Advanced has been "fixed" but nonetheless outside of AC Tempests and ATC Vader, what other builds do you see?

How often do you see a named A-Wing pilot that isn't Jake - or Brobots that aren't B and C?

Name any ship type and there will always be pilots that are overlooked and pilots that have some utility.

But anyway - moving back to the topic - perhaps another approach to capitalise on the IA "fix" would be to produce a range of unique astromechs that are specifically tailored to each of the unique pilot's abilities - cost them according to how good that particular ability is - but offer a discount if it's equipped on a specific named pilot

A 3-4 point turtle-bot that's 1 point on Biggs (when you perform a focus action assign an evade token to your ship) - a similarly priced Recon-spec-bot for Garven -4 point Uber-arc-dodging bot that's only a point on Wedge ....... or something like that.

Decent generics often seem to get ignored in favor of more uniques for fluff reasons. I know there is more limited design space if FFG are going to rigidly stick to the aim of not replicating card abilities, but imaginative astromechs are still possible. Rebels definitely need some better ones.

I'd agree with that a 2 point RecSpecMech would be a real bonus to T-65s and BFFs with Garven. I'd accept it being unique, but as a generic it would be better. Enhances generic Es which have more use for focus with 3 greens and Xs would gain flexibility from one of their 2 possible actions. Less useful on Ys, but warthog builds might use it

Reverse Agromech: When you spend a TL you may gain a focus token. 2 point generic, with utility for ordnance or defense. Wouldn't be OP on anything that can carry an astromech and buffs ordnance Ys.

Sure - I don't suppose there's an obligation for them to be unique - just seems more fluffy to make the Turtle-Bot that buffs Biggs to be R2-Q2 or the Uber-arc-dodge bot to be Wedge's R2-A3

BTW - when did FFG say they wouldn't replicate card abilities ? I must have missed that one

It wouldn't be insurmountable for the suggested recon-spec-bot - reword it slightly to something like "once per round when you spend a focus token, assign 1 focus token to your ship - job done :-)

The notion of designing an astromech to specifically buff the T-65 becomes a significant challenge when anything that buffs the T-65 will likely just be used on the E or T-70. They'd have to be something that works with specific T-65 pilots rather than the ship itself.

It can be done quite easily:

"X-Wing only - this card may not be equipped by a T-70 X-Wing"

Kinda backasswards way of doing it but it checks out

Just make it "X-Wing Only, Rebel Alliance Only".

Or x wing only, you may not equip if you have the boost action in your action bar "

"Rebel Alliance X-Wing Only" would be sufficient, I think. It would make the division between Resistance and Alliance clearer, establish a design space for sub-faction specific cards, and buff the X-Wing.

We could make xwing as a ship biggs themed.

G0-N3, 3 points.Once per round, When a friendly ship within range 1 would be targeted by an attack and the attacker could target you, It must attack you instead. This upgrade costs 0 points on an x wing.

You know, I alluded to it before, but the more I think about it, the more I think about it, the more all this effort to make T-65 only fixes seems pointless since every T-70 not flown by Poe (specifically the PS 8 version. I remain skeptical of the PS 9 version) is in the exact same boat. Which was actually FFG'S plan as I recall- They mentioned trying to keep the T-70 in line with the T-65 since any T-65 fix would apply to both (FFG doesn't appear to want to make distinctions between Rebel Alliance and Resistance based on past quotes, and saying no boost just seems clunky).

Now, Poe is a potential problem, but fixes that don't work with Autothrusters and Regeneration should keep him from becoming a menace.

Refurbished Astromech, 0 cost

Rebel Only.

Action: Perform a barrel roll action, then receive one stress token. You cannot use this ability if you already have a stress token.

Action header because adding BR to the action bar is too good. It's not a free action so no jumping off rocks. Stress because it's zero cost, and no, you can't stack stress with it either.

Gives the X-WIng (and Y-WIng) a much needed repositioning tool while staying out of E-Wing territory. The Y-Wing probably doesn't want to BR at the cost of stress, so really it's an X-WIng astro, but without any real limitations as to who can use it.

Would've worked great if Integrated Astromech was -1pts (or at least discounted the Astromech by 1pt).

I agree about Z-95s needing a generic with an EPT slot. If we follow the Z-95 vs Tie Fighter logic, the rebel Z-95 should be PS5 and cost 14 points, but have an EPT slot for Crackshot. If that pilot existed in the way that Black Squadron pilot exists for Tie Fighters, you'd see Z-95s on the table. Perhaps not in massive swarms, but they'd be solid filler.

I really wish they did that.

Refurbished Astromech, 0 cost

Rebel Only.

Action: Perform a barrel roll action, then receive one stress token. You cannot use this ability if you already have a stress token.

Action header because adding BR to the action bar is too good. It's not a free action so no jumping off rocks. Stress because it's zero cost, and no, you can't stack stress with it either.

Gives the X-WIng (and Y-WIng) a much needed repositioning tool while staying out of E-Wing territory. The Y-Wing probably doesn't want to BR at the cost of stress, so really it's an X-WIng astro, but without any real limitations as to who can use it.

I'm not quite sure I get where you're coming from on this - maybe I'm just up late

why would adding BR to the action bar be that much better than having an action header astro that grants a BR action - I get that it limits the action order for PTL, but that's not really a huge restriction.

also why say "You cannot use this ability if you already have a stress token." - of course you can't use a card with an action header - you're stressed

R1-P2: 0 pt double sided Astromech

Side 1-

Action: perform a free barrel roll, then, flip this card.

Side 2-

Action: flip this card to the other side.

Gives a boost with a repositioning tool but limits it by requiring an action to recharge the boost.

R1-P2: 0 pt double sided Astromech

Side 1-

Action: perform a free barrel roll, then, flip this card.

Side 2-

Action: flip this card to the other side.

Gives a boost with a repositioning tool but limits it by requiring an action to recharge the boost.

I like this. Quite a bit. It might not even need to be restricted to T-65s. It would help put Y-Wings back up as well, right now they're only seen as Stresshogs, and would work really well with PTL.

R1-P2: 0 pt double sided Astromech

Side 1-

Action: perform a free barrel roll, then, flip this card.

Side 2-

Action: flip this card to the other side.

Gives a boost with a repositioning tool but limits it by requiring an action to recharge the boost.

I still don't think people understand how dual cards work. Right now there is no flipping mechanic. it is a standard upgrade that does one thing or another but can be adjusted in a setting with a locked list by each game. As of now it doesn't change until a new game is started.

Now of course a flip mechanic could be added in and it would be very easy for FFG to do, but as for right now dual cards do not flip.

R1-P2: 0 pt double sided Astromech

Side 1-

Action: perform a free barrel roll, then, flip this card.

Side 2-

Action: flip this card to the other side.

Gives a boost with a repositioning tool but limits it by requiring an action to recharge the boost.

I still don't think people understand how dual cards work. Right now there is no flipping mechanic. it is a standard upgrade that does one thing or another but can be adjusted in a setting with a locked list by each game. As of now it doesn't change until a new game is started.

Now of course a flip mechanic could be added in and it would be very easy for FFG to do, but as for right now dual cards do not flip.

You really think people don't know this?? Creativity sometimes doesn't limit itself to current parameters. 99% of people who play this game understand how dual sided cards work.

Refurbished Astromech, 0 cost

Rebel Only.

Action: Perform a barrel roll action, then receive one stress token. You cannot use this ability if you already have a stress token.

Action header because adding BR to the action bar is too good. It's not a free action so no jumping off rocks. Stress because it's zero cost, and no, you can't stack stress with it either.

Gives the X-WIng (and Y-WIng) a much needed repositioning tool while staying out of E-Wing territory. The Y-Wing probably doesn't want to BR at the cost of stress, so really it's an X-WIng astro, but without any real limitations as to who can use it.

I'm not quite sure I get where you're coming from on this - maybe I'm just up late

why would adding BR to the action bar be that much better than having an action header astro that grants a BR action - I get that it limits the action order for PTL, but that's not really a huge restriction.

also why say "You cannot use this ability if you already have a stress token." - of course you can't use a card with an action header - you're stressed

You know what? I'm not sure how you would do an action on a card with a stress token either... Haha!

About the action bar. I thought that by keeping the BR on the card it would prevent a situation like R2D6 where if you IA him you keep your EPT. I think I also wanted this to be something that you couldn't really use with PTL and I guess I didn't know how to convey that properly.

Would this work?

Action: Perform a barrel roll action and receive one stress token. You cannot use this ability if you have already performed an action this round.

Really I'm not sure why I didn't just say that in the first place, lol! I think that puts a nice hefty cap on repositioning your X-Wing. Also, now this way it makes this astro less appealing to T-70s who quite frankly don't need BR.

Edit: Does the wording prevent nesting the stress token until a PTL action is taken? Heck, even if it didn't that's double stress. Maybe it should come with some in-built self harm opportunity?

Well, Push The Limit would just mean that the PTL-er would trigger the BR, then do the second action (TL/Focus?), then receive two stress, one from PTL and one from the 0-cost Astro - how this interaction works has been established with the Oicunn-Dauntless-Engine Upgrade-Daredevil combination.

But on the other hand, I don't see how that combination is broken either. Two stress is a pretty hefty burden.

On the other-OTHER hand, though, it's not much different from Expert Handling, an EPT that's hardly burning up the circuit. If it's designed for the X-Wing, though, stress is a burden that ship can barely afford to take with only four greens on its dial. Hell, BB-8 isn't helping the X-Wing much either.

I think the real issue here, is that nearly everyone knows that the X-Wing still needs something, but we can't agree on exactly what. But maybe the real issue is simply that the game X-Wing has changed so much over the last 8 waves that a ship like the X-Wing which is a pure jouster simply can never be truly viable in this game.

Good point - sadly....

In some ways though, the x-wing isn't all that different to any other ship in the game - plenty of options, but only a couple of genuinely optimal ones when it comes tourney time. Biggs has come in and out of vogue a few times but always seems to find a way to make a comeback - Wes seems to be having a minor renaissance at the moment - maybe that kind of scenario should be good enough.

After all, is that so different for the other ships?

The TIE Advanced has been "fixed" but nonetheless outside of AC Tempests and ATC Vader, what other builds do you see?

How often do you see a named A-Wing pilot that isn't Jake - or Brobots that aren't B and C?

Name any ship type and there will always be pilots that are overlooked and pilots that have some utility.

That's kind of my point. I've chatted with a lot of serious tournament goers and argued for non-standard list builds. The most common refrain I hear is "why spend x points when I can get y for the same?" In other words....why use Maarek Stele when I can get Vader for about the same? The utter efficiency moves everyone to use the most....optimal of options. Each side has a few ultra elite ships that are the best use of points. No one wants to spend their points on someone else that is less efficient. So, you get the utter best or the most acceptable lowest. You never see the guys in the middle.

I was pondering this a bit last night at the gym, and I think what the X-Wing needs is something new and different. I think simply giving it barrel roll or boost isn't the right answer. It could help, but the X-Wing needs IMO something to actually set it apart.

I had an idea, and this is really mostly an example I don't know that the idea I came up with is all that well balanced, but it serves as an example of what I think the type of thing the X-Wing needs.

A title that lets you perform a primary weapon attack as an action then you're not allowed to attack in the attack phase. This would allow X-Wings to attack arc dodgers before they can dodge or even get any tokens for defense, it would also make low to mid PS ships a lot more useful since they could attack first.

It could also be massively broken, so again not saying this is 'the' answer, just an example of something fairly out of the box that I think the X-Wing needs.

T-65 clearly had an issue with defence (an astromech can help with maneuverability). So they add a free special feature. Throw away an upturned damage card. And that's not enough? I wish people would just start flying them and stop whining. I've been to numerous official tournaments since their debut and how many x-wings with IA have I seen? Next to none! So don't knock it before you try it. I've played lots of casual games against them, and they're beasts! Annoying as hell now. We know you guys want FFG to add some crazy extras to them like boost, barrel roll, 5 extra shields, 5 dice attack, but come on!

I think someone needs to find the role for the T-65 before you can definitively fix it.

A 0 point blank astromech brings it in line with a b wing as a jouster.

A 0 point blank astromech brings it in line with a b wing as a jouster.

But that has a couple issues with it.

First off, if it's as good as the B-Wing in terms of jousting, the B-Wing still has a barrel roll.

But the larger issue is, are B-Wings even that useful any more? How often are those seen in regional lists? Is a jouster just not effective in X-Wing any more?

That said, my next several games at league night will be with either all or mostly T-65's to see what I can do with them.

I think someone needs to find the role for the T-65 before you can definitively fix it.

A 0 point blank astromech brings it in line with a b wing as a jouster.

Apart from the one guy who gets bb8

Of course they suck at jousting but that's why these threads keep popping up

Why limit it to one fix? The T-65 is supposed to be the workhorse of the Alliance after all. So anyways here are some ideas:

T-65B (0pt title)

- After an enemy ship executes a maneuver, you may aquire a target lock on that ship if able. You must equip a torpedo upgrade, reducing its cost by 2 to a minimum of 1.

T-65C (2 pt title)

- After you perform a green maneuver you may perform a free barrel roll action. If you do, assign 1 evade token to this ship.

T-65AC4 (?)

- After you perform an attack, you may perform a free boost or barrel roll action.

Now for 2 new astromechs to compliment:

- Ordinance Astromech (1 pt)

- You may reroll up to 2 die when attacking with an equipped torpedo upgrade.

- *Insert name here* (? pts)

- After performing a boost or barrel roll action, you may perform the same action a second time. Then receive one stress token.

Thoughts?