This has been mentioned/hinted at a few times before, by me and others; but I haven't been able to find a definitive conversation so here comes another Newb question:

I know that pilot abilities like Howlie or Eps Lead encourage close range formation flying. But what about non-Imp swarms or flying guys like Zeta Ace? It seems to me they want to be able to do their own things and not be leashed into formation. While I understand concentrated firepower it seems in my games it is easier for me to fly against a formation than to try to dodge shots from 4 or 5 different angles. Different attack vectors also makes target selection more difficult for me. The flip side is I am more likely to have someone in my sights than having jousted/dodged the entire squad and now have to turn around. Maybe I'm just no good at flying formations and looking for an excuse.

Am I making any sense or am I way off base? Thanks for helping me out.

I never fly in formation when having ships not profiting from close range to each other. It's hard to fly to keep firing arcs at the same target although coming from several sides. But if you can handle that, it's also far more difficult for the opponent to handle you.

5 ship swarms

I've see variations of this list before and am tempted to try a few of them but is 5 two dice ships enough? I recognize that these all have ways of increasing their damage output but still, it is situational. I still see it as 10 red dice with good agility but not a lot of HP.

BTW: Thanks everyone for their comments on my original question. I'm learning a lot. Please keep the replies coming.

I may not have Mr Patterson's esteem but I went 13th at yavin with a five ship swarm and never once lacked for firepower. I was able to reliably down aces In one volley and claim big ships in two. I don't think damage output in a five ship swarm is nearly as much an issue as survivability. This is why I ran two comms relay F/O's which really helped out.

Pattison

i agree with you comments. survivablity is exactly why i've never even tried a 5 ship swarm. its really interesting that you did so well with it and is giving me pause for thought. of course, OL is something of a mini-ace, so its almost like you are bridging the gap between swarm and mini-swarm with your list.

There is no need to fly in formation as long as all of your ships have shots.

Flying in formation does absolutely nothing for you if you're not running Howlrunner.

And 5 ships is not a swarm.

There is no need to fly in formation as long as all of your ships have shots.

Flying in formation does absolutely nothing for you if you're not running Howlrunner.

You keep saying that. But that guy a few posts up, you know, the one who actually won a big event, disagrees.

Why no love for 5 ship rebel swarms?

Bbbbz

Xxxxz

Or my favourite (since i only have 3 b wings) bbbaa

Or or or ac dc?

4 accuracy correct or tempest and dark curse

Had good success with the last 2

I feel like these don't have the maneuverability that the Tie Swarm does. Or the speed. If you lose one ship, you lose a significant portion of your list. Now, I'll admit that I haven't really played those, but that's what I think of when I think of the list.

5 ship swarms

I've see variations of this list before and am tempted to try a few of them but is 5 two dice ships enough? I recognize that these all have ways of increasing their damage output but still, it is situational. I still see it as 10 red dice with good agility but not a lot of HP.

BTW: Thanks everyone for their comments on my original question. I'm learning a lot. Please keep the replies coming.

I may not have Mr Patterson's esteem but I went 13th at yavin with a five ship swarm and never once lacked for firepower. I was able to reliably down aces In one volley and claim big ships in two. I don't think damage output in a five ship swarm is nearly as much an issue as survivability. This is why I ran two comms relay F/O's which really helped out.

Pattison

i agree with you comments. survivablity is exactly why i've never even tried a 5 ship swarm. its really interesting that you did so well with it and is giving me pause for thought. of course, OL is something of a mini-ace, so its almost like you are bridging the gap between swarm and mini-swarm with your list.

My bad. I will edit my post!

I did so well predominantly because I avoided facing a bigger swarm. I specifically teched against aces and U-boats by taking the two FO's because OL ruins there day and 4 dice from ZL with a TL happens more than you'd expect and the two jukes stifle thier offensive output at the same time. The two FO's with comms are also practically impossible for the two dice turrets to finish off in the end game V's JM5k's and always make the FO's the least appealing target to shoot with the Torps as the chance of a one shot is so remote. Plus five ships firing before then is generally enough to force the focus to be spend omit even kill the ship.

I'm tempted to drop both blacks for scourge and and academy to give me a blocker and (likely) 10 dice at ps 8-7 to increase the odds of two dead ships from a swarm before they fire, but this weakens the JK5000 matchup my quite a margin.

What I do know for sure is 5 ship swarms can certainly be competitive in the current environment.

Sure fly in formation. Assault missiles here we come.

Ok you waste 5 points on the missiles first.

I've been flying swarms for 2 years and have only seen assault missiles in Epic.

My favorite is starting out all my ships separate from each other and pointing in different directions. My opponents are then surprised to see in 2-3 turns they are all suddenly in formation and lined up perfectly for an attack...

If I'm flying a list that wants to swarm then I'll almost always start in formation.

(Of course my preferred swarm of choice is bbbbz because I'm rebel scum)

Flying in formation doesn't give you any magical powers that you wouldn't have if you weren't in formation, but it does make the job of bringing all your guns to bear in a co-ordinated fashion so much easier.

I've flown games where I've had a lot of ships that weren't in formation and man... That is a headache. It is still possible to converge nicely on your opponent (especially if your ships are fast), but it requires more effort, you take more time planning maneuvers, and you run the not inconsiderable risk of botching the approach & giving your opponent "free" shots at your lead ship(s).

That said it's extremely rare for me to hold formation to the end of the game. There is almost always some point in the game where it benefits to break formation and have ships go their own way.

I guess the skill in that is recognising when you reach one of these points.

5 ship swarms

I've see variations of this list before and am tempted to try a few of them but is 5 two dice ships enough? I recognize that these all have ways of increasing their damage output but still, it is situational. I still see it as 10 red dice with good agility but not a lot of HP.

BTW: Thanks everyone for their comments on my original question. I'm learning a lot. Please keep the replies coming.

I may not have Mr Patterson's esteem but I went 13th at yavin with a five ship swarm and never once lacked for firepower. I was able to reliably down aces In one volley and claim big ships in two. I don't think damage output in a five ship swarm is nearly as much an issue as survivability. This is why I ran two comms relay F/O's which really helped out.

Pattison

i agree with you comments. survivablity is exactly why i've never even tried a 5 ship swarm. its really interesting that you did so well with it and is giving me pause for thought. of course, OL is something of a mini-ace, so its almost like you are bridging the gap between swarm and mini-swarm with your list.

My bad. I will edit my post!

I did so well predominantly because I avoided facing a bigger swarm. I specifically teched against aces and U-boats by taking the two FO's because OL ruins there day and 4 dice from ZL with a TL happens more than you'd expect and the two jukes stifle thier offensive output at the same time. The two FO's with comms are also practically impossible for the two dice turrets to finish off in the end game V's JM5k's and always make the FO's the least appealing target to shoot with the Torps as the chance of a one shot is so remote. Plus five ships firing before then is generally enough to force the focus to be spend omit even kill the ship.

I'm tempted to drop both blacks for scourge and and academy to give me a blocker and (likely) 10 dice at ps 8-7 to increase the odds of two dead ships from a swarm before they fire, but this weakens the JK5000 matchup my quite a margin.

What I do know for sure is 5 ship swarms can certainly be competitive in the current environment.

I may experiment with replacing Mauler with Wampa and using those 3 pts to add Comm Relay to ZL.

If you are interested in a swarm list that doesn't need to fly in a tight formation, check out Sable Gryphon's post about his "Last Winter's Night" list and experience at the Dallas Regionals ( https://teamcovenant.com/star-wars-x-wing/last-winters-night-dallas-regionals-2016-recap ). He also gives a good breakdown of how it works in his regional recap on his podcast scum and villainy.