So, Vets is finally in the home stretch, and I'm itching to get rolling. But I had a question: why don't these vet/ace packs contain more of what you need to actually fly what's in them? I have a defender and a bomber already, vets will give me one more of each. Then I had to get a punisher for extra munitions, a TAP for chimps. I've already bought another TAP for another chimp. I'll need another 2 punishers/K's for more extra munis, and another TAP (or, shudder, toilet) for another chip.

Point is, to fly a three ordinance list, before even considering other ordinance flavors or epts I would essentially need:

Bomber, vets, 3 punishers, 3 TAPs,(and the firespray, in this case)

And this is a "fix" for the bomber? I get the need to make money, I do. And at least this isn't "Vader's pretty cool, yeah? Wanna fly him? $115, please." My starviper sits at my work desk with a sign that states: "don't be a starviper" to remind me not to be one dimensional.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that these aces/vets expansions should help reduce the cost to entry in fielding a competitive squad, and not make it another must buy to just make them competitive. Throw us a bone here, FFG. It's a bomber, put bomb-y things in it!

And I know there's ebay, and other options. I know some will say, there's other things than 100pt competitive play. But as new waves build out, there has to be some help for the new player to make it a little easier to get started, dontcha think? I'm also of the opinion that selling cards alone is a bad idea. So what's the fix? Shut up and get a better job? Thought so.

are you playing at a store championship or above?

no?

proxy

there's also third party markets for single cards, just don't get your hopes up for crackshots

Last paragraph, just sayin'.

See how there's this list you want to fly, but to use it in a tournament you'll need to actually buy a whole bunch of other ships?

That's FFGs thing . It's how they encourage sales. And don't dare speak out about it, or all you'll hear are cries of "Entitled! Entitled!".

Just use a squad builder, either on screen or a print out, and don't bother about the cards. You'll find the overwhelming majority of players in a casual setting won't mind.

Fantasy Flight must, and always has, tread the line between ease of access and money-making (leaning more to the latter). You do have a point that it's a bit expensive to build for a competitive list in the ever-flowing meta. And Fantasy Flight pushes that envelope every year they release new cards and mechanics instead of issuing copies of the same, older cards that have been working.

But you've proven their stragey with your anecdote about the Starviper. Competitively, it sees little action. But since FF wants to push their product, it will probably be quite a while before we see autothrusters in any other set. It gets their units out and bought...until another reason compels us to own it (like a fix with new cards from new sets). And the competitive scene, ever vigilant of the best ways to munchkin various ship builds, are itching to buy whatever helps them remain competitve.

The best upgrades help the best ships which need the best upgrades that are in other ships that will be buffed with the next best ships and THEIR upgrades which...etc, etc, etc.

Tournament-wise? I think your complaint is valid but will never see a solution. This game's got so many ships and FF wants to sell all of them. And if the ship, while currently unpopular, has an upgrade that gets it sold, we won't be seeing whatever upgrade has got us trigger-happy with our wallets. What better way to get you to have as much of their product as you need than by requiring it at their events? What better way to ensure more expansion packs are sold than by having several ships synergize with upgrades in other kits?

Otherwise? I'd recommend playing the lists you want. The other folks here talking about proxying echo my own feelings: casuals won't worry much. And if that's your boat, then you go float it.

Fantasy Flight makes the most money from new players by them spending into the collection. They buy the starter set, the kits they like, the kits they're curious about, etc. And perhaps they remain casuals flying the ships they enjoy despite the occasional spanking by someone who's run the numbers. Perhaps they're happy with the little collection they've accumulated.

But perhaps they become competitive and start running those numbers. Getting deep into the community and following the meta. And they buy not only the sets they want but all the sets they need. And that's where the money continues to flow. Because we wanna win.

Fantasy Flight doesn't play us for suckers, I'd say. They play us as customers of a product we want. And they'll continue to do that until their strategy fails to keep their numbers up. For that to happen, we'll have to start boycotting their new expansions while clearly expressing that we'd buy them if they furnished us with more cards that we prefer.

Ask me? I still plan on buying every expansion in whatever copies I require until my consumer-grade Stockholm Syndrome fades.

Or until I have no more money.

Ask me? I still plan on buying every expansion in whatever copies I require until my consumer-grade Stockholm Syndrome fades.

This. And nicely put.

Ask me? I still plan on buying every expansion in whatever copies I require until my consumer-grade Stockholm Syndrome fades.

This. And nicely put.

Likewise. I'm already chest deep, and there's no sign of stopping (plus I'm way behind on IA and armada) I'm really not even trying to ***** and moan about it, its really just the vets/aces I feel are just a simple card or two short of being really where they could (not should) be.

I know right! You can legally use Imp Vets in a tourney 11 days after release, I'm thinking about what I can do with what this brings to my collection! I'm thinking Gamma Vets with the title (oh I hope it comes with two!) and Stay on Target...

Oh wait...

I thought this was a thread about how awesome it is that we might get to see Imp Vets make a splash in this years Regionals, but I see now it's not that at all...

I dunno man, you could just not buy a ton of stuff all at once? Even up here in Canada expacs are pretty cheap, and if you have a good store they usually hook you up. Then there is the online stuff, and really have you tried trading? When I was big into 40k I used to get lots of cool stuff through trades. Hell, I even got a Crackshot for a spare R2D2 because buddy thought Crackshot was no good. Try the trade thread here or if you're thick of skin try dakka dakka.

It has been confirmed for 23rd June also in my country. After 5 weeks in storage...

They wouldn't post this date without a very good reason after all this time.

The thing that pisses me off about the expansion scheme for X-wing are the epic ships. Hardly anyone plays epic and FFG makes sure that there are always a couple of really powerful cards in those expansions.

Epic is fun, you should try it.

It would have been nice to get a pair each of Guidance Chips and TIE Mk II cards.

There are a huge number of good lists that don't need epic ship cards, though.

Ask me? I still plan on buying every expansion in whatever copies I require until my consumer-grade Stockholm Syndrome fades.

Or until I have no more money.

An interesting thought. I like Star Wars and the painted models is why I got into the game. Now I like the game too but... As many like ever changing mechanics and new cards to pour over others do not. I for one, and this is just my opinion, no longer feel this is a simple easy to play game, just look at the FAQ or timing threads or Ociumm Double Tap, etc.

See how there's this list you want to fly, but to use it in a tournament you'll need to actually buy a whole bunch of other ships?That's FFGs thing . It's how they encourage sales. And don't dare speak out about it, or all you'll hear are cries of "Entitled! Entitled!".Just use a squad builder, either on screen or a print out, and don't bother about the cards. You'll find the overwhelming majority of players in a casual setting won't mind.

Double-edged sword though. I haven't started Armada or IA because I can't just buy the core set, the army I want and, say, a source book or whatever and expect to have everything I need. I know what the deal is after X-wing and it's made me a lot more timid about jumping into another of their games.

The thing that pisses me off about the expansion scheme for X-wing are the epic ships. Hardly anyone plays epic and FFG makes sure that there are always a couple of really powerful cards in those expansions.

Epic is by far the most fun I have had with X-wing. The ships go on sale fairly regularly too.

But I had a question: why don't these vet/ace packs contain more of what you need to actually fly what's in them?Then I had to get a punisher for extra munitions, a TAP for chimps. I've already bought another TAP for another chimp. I'll need another 2 punishers/K's for more extra munis, and another TAP (or, shudder, toilet) for another chip.

Point is, to fly a three ordinance list, before even considering other ordinance flavors or epts I would essentially need:

Bomber, vets, 3 punishers, 3 TAPs,(and the firespray, in this case)

And this is a "fix" for the bomber? I get the need to make money, I do. And at least this isn't "Vader's pretty cool, yeah? Wanna fly him? $115, please." My starviper sits at my work desk with a sign that states: "don't be a starviper" to remind me not to be one dimensional.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that these aces/vets expansions should help reduce the cost to entry in fielding a competitive squad, and not make it another must buy to just make them competitive. Throw us a bone here, FFG. It's a bomber, put bomb-y things in it!

So I've been thinking along the same lines, as my collection has one Defender and my buddy has a Bomber he'll loan me. You mentioned a "three ordnance list," so I'm guessing you're looking at something like Punisher/Bomber/Bomber.

You already have the Bomber: Proton Bombs, Seismic Charges, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Assault Missiles, Adrenaline Rush

You already have the Defender: Munitions Failsafe, Ion Pulse Missiles, Outmaneuver, Predator

You're getting Imperial Veterans: Proximity Mines, Cluster Mines, Systems Officer, TIE Shuttle x2, Crack Shot (for Tomax Bren), Long Range Scanners

I assume you're building the list with a Punisher: Extra Munitions, Flechette Torpedoes, Plasma Torpedoes, Twin Ion Engine Mk. 2 x2, Advanced Homing Missiles, Cluster Mines, Ion Bombs, Advanced Scopes

I agree that it'd be nice to have Guidance Chips, so you'll have to get a Punishing One: Plasma Torpedoes, Guidance Chips x2, Rage

With that, you've bought one ship (Punishing One) that you didn't really want, just to get the Chimps. (I suspect some of your buddies who have been running 3xJM5K lists have extra Chimps they'd sell you if you wanted.) You don't have a 3x "Chimp My Ride" list, but you do have something like

Gamma Squadron Veteran

Predator

Advanced Homing Missiles

Flechette Torpedoes

Plasma Torpedoes

Guidance Chips

Tomax Bren

Crack Shot

Plasma Torpedoes

Ion Pulse Missiles

Guidance Chips

Deathrain

Enhanced Scopes

Extra Munitions

Proton Bombs

Proximity Mines

Twin Ion Engine Mk. 2

all for the low price of 99 points, 2 small expansions, 1 medium expansion, 1 large expansion, and 1 double expansion (call it $110 at retail). Not cheap, but perhaps cheaper than the $135-$180 you listed. For casual, I think that's not too bad; for tournament play, I guess we'd all better start selling plasma (maybe that's what those torpedoes are filled with).

Perhaps you would find more joy if you didn't just play hard tournament lists all the time? Epic is a lot of fun and if you already bought the dang Raider, you might as well try it out. Same for building a list with the Starviper in it. Play a couple of B-list games with someone and use all those ships you never take out of the box. You might enjoy yourself and feel that you got your money's worth.

The Empire has so many other Aces than Vader, don't fly him and you don't need the Raider expansion for the X1 title. Same with Gozanti, some fun Tie pilots and Kallus is cool, but nothing you can't play without.

My wallet wishes that Fantasy Flight would stop coming out with new goodies for me to fly, but then I remind it kindly that this is not Warhammer. My wallet is then happy to oblige for fear that I may return to an even more expensive hobby.

Each expansion comes with a limited amount of cards. FFG is in a no win position with which cards they choose to include. Either way they go, someone is going to be unhappy.

I'm disappointed enough with all of the old cards that are in this expansion, I don't need any more copies of Crackshot, Cluster Mines, or Proximity Mines, I would have rather gotten three new cards in their place. It would have been even more disappointing if they had included even fewer new cards just to provide copies of Extra Munitions and Guidance Chips that I don't need.

Each expansion comes with a limited amount of cards. FFG is in a no win position with which cards they choose to include. Either way they go, someone is going to be unhappy.

I'm disappointed enough with all of the old cards that are in this expansion, I don't need any more copies of Crackshot, Cluster Mines, or Proximity Mines, I would have rather gotten three new cards in their place. It would have been even more disappointing if they had included even fewer new cards just to provide copies of Extra Munitions and Guidance Chips that I don't need.

I'm pretty happy with the Crack Shots, and I view Long Range Sensors as filling the spot Guidance Chips would have in the set. It would have been nice to get EM, though, and a Connor Net thrown in there would have been nice instead of a Prox or Cluster mine. It's really rather easy to look past these shortcomings with those new pilots and titles, though.

Each expansion comes with a limited amount of cards. FFG is in a no win position with which cards they choose to include. Either way they go, someone is going to be unhappy.

Agreed, but I think they do a pretty good job of handling it. I know this a piece of gnarled old wisdom but if you are "flying casually" then most people will be okay with proxying and if you're super-competitive and determined to win everything from an SC to Worlds to a game of X-Wing with the Devil at a dark crossroads at midnight, there is a cost to that and people need to be prepared to pay that. Look at what it would take to be well equipped - let alone competitive - in other hobbies such as golf or paintball or whatever.

Now, if you're in a scene where there's no fly casual/proxy allowed, YMMV

Each expansion comes with a limited amount of cards. FFG is in a no win position with which cards they choose to include. Either way they go, someone is going to be unhappy.

Agreed, but I think they do a pretty good job of handling it. I know this a piece of gnarled old wisdom but if you are "flying casually" then most people will be okay with proxying and if you're super-competitive and determined to win everything from an SC to Worlds to a game of X-Wing with the Devil at a dark crossroads at midnight, there is a cost to that and people need to be prepared to pay that. Look at what it would take to be well equipped - let alone competitive - in other hobbies such as golf or paintball or whatever.

Now, if you're in a scene where there's no fly casual/proxy allowed, YMMV

I think FFG does a good job with their expansions. I was trying to make the point that for ever person that wants a copy of Extra Munitions in an upgrade there's a guy out there that doesn't need yet another copy of that card.

Also, the Starviper is a great ship. Sure it's expensive and kinda fragile, but it also hits like a brick. It's not really the Scum Interceptor that people think it is. It's more like a really hot B-Wing. It can barrel roll, TL and has a really good k-turn. Once you start to think of the Starviper as a hot-rod B-Wing the whole ship starts to make more sense. If you could take the B-Wing and make it better, faster, you'd have to lose something. Shields. But how would you make the B-Wing better? Well, free up the dial, give it some agility, and maybe a nasty surprise like IDs. Throw in a pilot ability that let's you tank shots and an upgrade that makes your agility worthwhile and you have a pretty scummy B-Wing. Call it the Starviper, buy one for your cyborg girlfriend and away you go!