You can argue that any ship is like a B-wing except in all the ways it isn't.

It's a 3-agility, 3-attack-dice starfighter with a reasonable dial and boost/barrel roll. It's just not quite able to find it's niche. The raw stats are pretty expensive and it lacks the system and illicit slots that for some **** reason you can't apply to the low PS guys. It struggles greatly against the Aggressor. For only 5 points more, you get 3 shields, a pip of PS, and a phenomenally better dial. I think honestly it is the dial that really is the final nail in the starviper coffin. If you gave the viper all the green you get on the aggressor dial, or an interceptor or A-wing for that matter, you could make Guri or Xisor work.

You can argue that any ship is like a B-wing except in all the ways it isn't.

It's a 3-agility, 3-attack-dice starfighter with a reasonable dial and boost/barrel roll. It's just not quite able to find it's niche. The raw stats are pretty expensive and it lacks the system and illicit slots that for some **** reason you can't apply to the low PS guys. It struggles greatly against the Aggressor. For only 5 points more, you get 3 shields, a pip of PS, and a phenomenally better dial. I think honestly it is the dial that really is the final nail in the starviper coffin. If you gave the viper all the green you get on the aggressor dial, or an interceptor or A-wing for that matter, you could make Guri or Xisor work.

comparing to the Aggressor doesn't actually help, because no one runs naked aggressors. You're ultimately looking at a 50 point v 35/37 point ship of varying base sizes and VASTLY different playstyles, which is a bunk comparison.

not to say that that point of the generic Vipers not finding a niche (at reasonable cost) isn't a good one, or that Virago is just a headscratching "why FFG? Why?" that could have been 0 points or just added to the base profile of the dang ship , but we do have to keep these things in mind

secondly, the Starviper's dial is bloody awesome. It's just not a PTL dial, so don't use PTL.

the way in which the Starviper is like the B-wing is in that the dial is the same except they swapped out the 2k for 3-seggys and bleached the hell out of all the other red maneuvers.

It's also like a B-wing in that Xizor is a mean jouster, but he's unlike a B-wing in that he can actually take a few **** hits instead of melting to tie fighter fire

anyway, you can use the Viper very effectively and it's going to be taking the thrusters it comes with if you choose to run it.

I think the OP's example of having to buy the punisher is a bit more spot on, sadly. As much as I love the **** thing, it's going to be spending far more time gathering dust while the upgrade cards see play than even the Viper.

But this is why we allow proxy in sub store-championship events, gents!

or, if your community is big/close-knit enough, you lend out your cards to newer players

I can't say I, as a paying customer, would defend FFG's business model (it is a bit scummy, eh Starviper?) but I would say it's very easy to step around so long as you aren't looking into sanctioned competition

So, Vets is finally in the home stretch, and I'm itching to get rolling. But I had a question: why don't these vet/ace packs contain more of what you need to actually fly what's in them? I have a defender and a bomber already, vets will give me one more of each. Then I had to get a punisher for extra munitions, a TAP for chimps. I've already bought another TAP for another chimp. I'll need another 2 punishers/K's for more extra munis, and another TAP (or, shudder, toilet) for another chip.

Point is, to fly a three ordinance list, before even considering other ordinance flavors or epts I would essentially need:

Bomber, vets, 3 punishers, 3 TAPs,(and the firespray, in this case)

And this is a "fix" for the bomber? I get the need to make money, I do. And at least this isn't "Vader's pretty cool, yeah? Wanna fly him? $115, please." My starviper sits at my work desk with a sign that states: "don't be a starviper" to remind me not to be one dimensional.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that these aces/vets expansions should help reduce the cost to entry in fielding a competitive squad, and not make it another must buy to just make them competitive. Throw us a bone here, FFG. It's a bomber, put bomb-y things in it!

And I know there's ebay, and other options. I know some will say, there's other things than 100pt competitive play. But as new waves build out, there has to be some help for the new player to make it a little easier to get started, dontcha think? I'm also of the opinion that selling cards alone is a bad idea. So what's the fix? Shut up and get a better job? Thought so.

But I had a question: why don't these vet/ace packs contain more of what you need to actually fly what's in them? ......at least this isn't "Vader's pretty cool, yeah? Wanna fly him? $115, please." My starviper sits at my work desk with a sign that states: "don't be a starviper" to remind me not to be one dimensional.

Throw us a bone here, FFG. It's a bomber, put bomb-y things in it!

Fantastic write-up; things we all think.....but I guess we think to highly of ourselves, or have some economy morality or ethics that silence us before we dare say or type such thoughts out loud. Well done!

See how there's this list you want to fly, but to use it in a tournament you'll need to actually buy a whole bunch of other ships?That's FFGs thing . It's how they encourage sales. And don't dare speak out about it, or all you'll hear are cries of "Entitled! Entitled!".Just use a squad builder, either on screen or a print out, and don't bother about the cards. You'll find the overwhelming majority of players in a casual setting won't mind.

Double-edged sword though. I haven't started Armada or IA because I can't just buy the core set, the army I want and, say, a source book or whatever and expect to have everything I need. I know what the deal is after X-wing and it's made me a lot more timid about jumping into another of their games.

I've felt the same way. I'm in X-Wing mostly for collecting and playing. So I do have ships I'll probably never get on a table. But that's on me. I like the models and I like the game. But the constant expansions has made me very gun shy on other games that have continuous expansions. Star Wars Imperial Assault I only bought the core game and the expansions that replaced that token cardboard units. Otherwise I'm done. Star Wars Armada, wave one only and anything else would be for looks not play.

Just my two cents.

See how there's this list you want to fly, but to use it in a tournament you'll need to actually buy a whole bunch of other ships?That's FFGs thing . It's how they encourage sales. And don't dare speak out about it, or all you'll hear are cries of "Entitled! Entitled!".Just use a squad builder, either on screen or a print out, and don't bother about the cards. You'll find the overwhelming majority of players in a casual setting won't mind.

Double-edged sword though. I haven't started Armada or IA because I can't just buy the core set, the army I want and, say, a source book or whatever and expect to have everything I need. I know what the deal is after X-wing and it's made me a lot more timid about jumping into another of their games.

I've felt the same way. I'm in X-Wing mostly for collecting and playing. So I do have ships I'll probably never get on a table. But that's on me. I like the models and I like the game. But the constant expansions has made me very gun shy on other games that have continuous expansions. Star Wars Imperial Assault I only bought the core game and the expansions that replaced that token cardboard units. Otherwise I'm done. Star Wars Armada, wave one only and anything else would be for looks not play.

Just my two cents.

I have an Armada core set and a handful of ships that I have yet to even break the cellophane on. I don't have enough time to not play X-Wing, let alone not play Armada...

Fel/Ryad/Palpatine sounds fun, as she's definitely stronger against generics than the Inquisitor is. Need to figure out some sort of pairing of Vessery and Omega Leader too.

comparing to the Aggressor doesn't actually help, because no one runs naked aggressors. You're ultimately looking at a 50 point v 35/37 point ship of varying base sizes and VASTLY different playstyles, which is a bunk comparison.

not to say that that point of the generic Vipers not finding a niche (at reasonable cost) isn't a good one, or that Virago is just a headscratching "why FFG? Why?" that could have been 0 points or just added to the base profile of the dang ship , but we do have to keep these things in mind

secondly, the Starviper's dial is bloody awesome. It's just not a PTL dial, so don't use PTL.

See how there's this list you want to fly, but to use it in a tournament you'll need to actually buy a whole bunch of other ships?That's FFGs thing . It's how they encourage sales. And don't dare speak out about it, or all you'll hear are cries of "Entitled! Entitled!".Just use a squad builder, either on screen or a print out, and don't bother about the cards. You'll find the overwhelming majority of players in a casual setting won't mind.

Double-edged sword though. I haven't started Armada or IA because I can't just buy the core set, the army I want and, say, a source book or whatever and expect to have everything I need. I know what the deal is after X-wing and it's made me a lot more timid about jumping into another of their games.

This is the elephant in the games store, and part of the OPs issue.

X Wing markets itself as an easy to play, easy to pick up game, and it definitely markets itself at the casual gamer, not the hardcore wargamer. But the reality is that almost every game played in a store in a store is a tournament format game, and those types of games dominate the scene. There is no one playing cool scenarios or just flying the ships they like, so new gamers can't just chuck Luke and Wedge into a list and blow up some TIE fighters, coz they'll just get blown the pieces by triple stairmasters every game. A ship that, by the way, they've probably never even heard of.

But a much more tangible problem for new gamers is that once they peel back that veneer of simplicity, X Wing becomes a really convoluted and expensive game to collect. The upgrade cards are bundled seemingly at random, and they're not listed on the packs exterior which means if you're looking for a specific card you need to research that online and find out which ship it comes with, and many of the cards a new player might want aren't bundled in a very friendly way. Autothrusters and Palpatine are a prime example, along with the TIE Advanced fix. It's a definite turn off to new players. If they want a GOOD Interceptor list, then they can't just buy interceptors, they also need Starvipers and lots of them. They can't just buy X Wings to run a good X Wing list because they also need T70s to get the integrated astros, or something to get guidance chips if they want them instead.

It's a barrier to entry, and kits like Imperial Veterans should be working to reduce that barrier, not increase it. A new player should be able to pick up a core set, Imperial Aces and Imperial Veterans and have all the tools he needs to build all those ships to the best of their abilities: IE it should include some TIE mkII mods, some chips, some extra munitions, autothrusters, stealth devices, etc. Because if this game continues to get harder and harder to get into, then the supply of new players will dwindle. And eventually the game will run out of ships to release, and we'll have no new releases, no new players, and what happens to FFGs revenue stream then?

Sure, we've had plenty of releases so far, but this game is still in V1.0 and still in it's infancy. Do we think this rate of releases can continue over the next decade? No, of course not, we've already used up all the EU, all the Rebels stuff and all the Force Awakens stuff. Yes, there's new movies coming out, but we already burned through 4 movies, two years of Rebels and 30+ years of EU ships in what, four years worth of releases? Things simply can't continue at this pace, so FFG needs to think very carefully about what they're doing. Yes, releasing more and new upgrades and ships is good for the existing players, since every new release adds something to our collection, but then every new release makes it harder for new players to get into the game.