Funny i just popped into the Nationals final table thread Biggs is liveblogging in and the 2 lists are:

Imperial: very similar to what I run (ISD, Demo, Raider + fireball)

Rebel: TRC90s and MC30 plus YT swarm

accident?

Problem always comes down to the idea of Sheeple. Designing your own fleet with dedicated tactics is hard and takes experience, people are too lazy for that, so copy paste a list and tactics is the way for many.

Ever since the beginning of Internet Sites that talk about how to game this has been an issue. Seen it millions of times and it won't change because the issue is not the game, it's people. We love power and an advantage. We cheer on the underdogs in movies but we never take that risk ourselves in gaming. We play it safe.

I am a cynic but no one can't deny this is the norm, even if there are outliers.

Maybe, but sometimes those sites are just posting what people find out eventually anyway: some things are more value for points than others.

Problem always comes down to the idea of Sheeple. Designing your own fleet with dedicated tactics is hard and takes experience, people are too lazy for that, so copy paste a list and tactics is the way for many.

Ever since the beginning of Internet Sites that talk about how to game this has been an issue. Seen it millions of times and it won't change because the issue is not the game, it's people. We love power and an advantage. We cheer on the underdogs in movies but we never take that risk ourselves in gaming. We play it safe.

I am a cynic but no one can't deny this is the norm, even if there are outliers.

Maybe, but sometimes those sites are just posting what people find out eventually anyway: some things are more value for points than others.

Again, jaded old man just saying.

I feel you, Beatty. I love fluff and theme, but years of getting kicked around in tournaments and leagues has rewired my brain into thinking about odds and optimization.

I feel you, Beatty. I love fluff and theme, but years of getting kicked around in tournaments and leagues has rewired my brain into thinking about odds and optimization.

I think the one game that didn't do that was Dystopian Wars and that was because how you navigated your ships trumped the numbers. But the game never took off because the players I knew wanted number crunching after a spell.

Any argument that non-ironically uses the term "sheeple" is not a good argument. It boils all the numerous factors behind a group of people and their behavior (why is someone playing Armada? what is their goal? how important is winning to them versus just having a fun game? how much practice do they get/how experienced are they? how comfortable are they with different fleet builds and ships and squadrons? what is their meta like?) down to this toxic idea that somehow we have half-people in our midst who just do whatever the internet tells them to do.

Rhymer is easy to use and a force multiplier. Demolisher is easy to use and a big buff to a Gladiator's damage output (usually) as well as allowing it to be used in ways a standard non-Demolisher Gladiator can't be. A lot of Imperial fleets use either/both of them because they're good. The imperial players may have originally heard about using them online, but then they used them in the real world and found that they are pretty effective and thus they kept using them for themselves. You can make arguments for building Imperial fleets without either Rhymer or Demolisher, of course, but this idea that trends emerge because of some kind of sheepish groupthink and not because of actual effectiveness is not helpful.

I'd also like to add that groupthink when incorrect gets smashed apart in epic fashion. Remember when wave two was new, boring Ackbar conga lines were everywhere, Raiders were largely viewed as unplayable garbage, and Rieekan was viewed as a terrible commander because his effect assumed our internet-perfect selves would somehow lose a ship in a game of Armada? Clontroper5 showed up to the Vassal tournament and blew those assumptions apart. That changed the meta because the group consensus was wrong and when group consensus is wrong, someone will find a way to exploit it and then the group consensus changes. Nobody has yet proven Demolisher and Rhymer "wrong" despite the fact that they've both been around since wave one.

And, in a hilarious twist, Rieekan has become the savior in a Demo/Rhymer meta.

@Reegsk

"Rhymer is different, though."

Yes and no. He is not as powerful as Demolisher, however both Demolisher and Rhymer shut down a lot of fleet-building options and this is a problem, from my point of view. And just to reiterate, my problem with Rhymer is not extra reach that he adds, its the fact that he effectively shuts down ship-based AS and any attempts to bump it.

@Hastatior

Every list has a weak point and Firesprays are good against mine, I'm not arguing that. However you're oversimplifying the battle. I'm sure that we'll trade ISDs and then its the question of you dropping a second ISD (which is likely but not guaranteed) and objective. (Oh.. and if it's your objectives, you're risking to receive a lot of hurt and may end up being tabled). As far as this list being playable by average-skill player, th jury is still out, but I believe that it is playable, it can win games and it is fun to play (which matters a lot). As far as Rieekan lists go, I believe that I have an advantage here, even if Rieekan player is good. I would be more worried about Mon Mothma, to be fair.

I use Sheeple as a term because in real life I have intellectual debates often but some times I don't have the energy to put better words to it, so I use a quick term we all understand. (Even if people find it insulting.)

I know many factors can come into play but when people design fleets all that variety flys out the window and we become predictable to an extent. There are outliers but limited cognitive thinking means most will fall into a small category weather they know it or not. It's human nature that I could spend hours discussing but it is very off topic and most find that more abstract discussion annoying.

(When I was young I believed in Free Will and Individuality but as I learn more I realize we mostly follow patterns and some sort of crowd if we're mentally stable.)

I would say you see Demo and Rhymer in almost every imperial list mainly because the Empire really doesn't have many ship options right now. Vic's are almost only good as carriers in which case you need a Rhymerball as your ships won't be able to chase down and kill anything that doesn't fly at you. You could try to do the Imperial Heavy Christmas trees with 2 upgraded ISD's but then that leaves you open to the current meta of many smaller ships and they just fly around your flanks and kill you. Basically for the most part the Empire has 3 ships to use, ISD, Glad, and Raider. If you take a Glad then Demo is pretty much an instant add. Rhymer and Demo are included in most imperial fleets because the fleet choices you have as the Empire pretty much forces you to go one of those two routs or even both. The Rebels have much more choices in terms of fleet builds currently.

As you mentioned Wave 3 will just make Rhymer even more powerful so get ready to see even more of him...That being said I think you will see even more rebel heavy fighter lists.

There are effective ways to turtle, no?

I would say you see Demo and Rhymer in almost every imperial list mainly because the Empire really doesn't have many ship options right now. Vic's are almost only good as carriers in which case you need a Rhymerball as your ships won't be able to chase down and kill anything that doesn't fly at you. You could try to do the Imperial Heavy Christmas trees with 2 upgraded ISD's but then that leaves you open to the current meta of many smaller ships and they just fly around your flanks and kill you. Basically for the most part the Empire has 3 ships to use, ISD, Glad, and Raider. If you take a Glad then Demo is pretty much an instant add. Rhymer and Demo are included in most imperial fleets because the fleet choices you have as the Empire pretty much forces you to go one of those two routs or even both. The Rebels have much more choices in terms of fleet builds currently.

As you mentioned Wave 3 will just make Rhymer even more powerful so get ready to see even more of him...That being said I think you will see even more rebel heavy fighter lists.

There are effective ways to turtle, no?

Yes and no. It depends what you're turtling against, what the objective is, etc. You can easily turtle with a Vic Rhymerball. Just Nav to zero, bank a Nav token, then squadron spam. But if you're first player and the objective is Contested Outpost/Fire Lanes, you're handing 120/270 points to your opponent who can just turtle on the objective.

so many pages

I've been sadly off the armada mats for a while

still, I've been looking forward to Wave 3 making squadrons far easier to include in fleets due to floatillas being cheap as chips and packing room for boosted comms. Problem is I do agree with the OP in that this seems to just give Rhymer even more of an edge, especially because a pair of Gonzatis under Tarkin can fling a huge rhymer ball from kingdom come to kingdom gone for a mere 54 points (56 if using Vector to get Fireball up to Rhymer's speed)

with bomber command, a single Gonzati gets a bit expensive (35) but Rhymer allows unique abuse of it due to his range bonus. Because the bomber, not the targeted ship, has to be within Distance 1-5 of the Gonzati; you can command Rhymer and two Sprays from WAY beyond retaliation range and to devastating effect

on the other hand, this could be a good thing because it's probably one of very few things that's safe from Demolisher

I think Rhymer is a natural counter to Rebel MSU swarms. Without Rhymer, what is an Imperial player going to do against (yes, Lyr, I'm about to reference it) a Dodonna the Oppressor list? Raiders can't chase down CR90As before they get chewed apart. Demo is one ship and it will get vaporized. ISDs aren't maneuverable enough. VSDs are too slow. Take out Rhymer, and what Imperial counter is there to that list?

I love facing Rhymerball's! They are usually pretty easy to shred due to the inherent weakness they have in they last as long as their ships. Just got to go in there think I you will lose 1-3 ships.

Rhymer is nice to try and counter MSU lists, but they have to be careful, those fast flying lists can easily dodge range if the ball is not being commanded

I think Rhymer is a natural counter to Rebel MSU swarms. Without Rhymer, what is an Imperial player going to do against (yes, Lyr, I'm about to reference it) a Dodonna the Oppressor list? Raiders can't chase down CR90As before they get chewed apart. Demo is one ship and it will get vaporized. ISDs aren't maneuverable enough. VSDs are too slow. Take out Rhymer, and what Imperial counter is there to that list?

I love facing Rhymerball's! They are usually pretty easy to shred due to the inherent weakness they have in they last as long as their ships. Just got to go in there think I you will lose 1-3 ships.

Rhymer is nice to try and counter MSU lists, but they have to be careful, those fast flying lists can easily dodge range if the ball is not being commanded

Which is why I always base my Rhymer lists on a 1:1 activation scheme, knowing that by the time I lose a carrier I've probably lost some squadrons as well. And if I'm facing a no-squads list, or I've already cleared enemy squadrons, I can focus on pushing Bombers around to maximize remaining damage.

I still haven't faced a serious MSU list in competitive play. Rebel or Imperial.

That being said, without new ships, I think we're going to stagnate coming up with the "new hotness". I'm definitely on board with saying the strategy and skill of the people playing will be the largest revelations without new units. I think this is the land we are currently in.

Imperials are dominating the Regional season, but not by that much. Honestly I think they are easier to play, but they definitely have a bit less diversity than the Rebels currently. IMO, that shows in the data.

I agree with Stasy, the Imperials feel like they are OP not because they are as a whole but because they have limited good choices and people gravitate towards the no brainer builds and Demo and Rhymer Balls fall into this category. The rebels have so many good competitive builds that can win but they are harder to win with. All the statistical data shows me is that it is easier to win with Empire Demo and Rhymer builds for the average player so you lots more of them. This doesnt take away from any of the winners because I guarantee they could win with Rebel builds too.

Whenever I build Imperial builds I gravitate towards Demo and Rhymer too but mainly because I dont feel like I can guarantee winning with other builds. I feel that the Mon Mothma TRC Vette/Mc-30 builds are the biggest problem in the meta right now and they are not getting the attention because they are harder to fly.

As a primarily rebel player, I agree with this. The MC30/CR90 with Mothma are hard to fly, but seriously stomp some face when flown well. I think the biggest thing with Demolisher and Rhymer is they are exrremely forgiving. Some may argue, and sure, that's fine, but being able to shoot after moving (not to mention engine teching) is very forgiving. Missed black range by a hair? Ok, I move and now I'm in there.

As for Rhymer, he might be a tad undercosted, but really, that might just be for now, and once some new squadrons get released this might not be the case as much. But right now, compared to similarly costed rebel squadrons (Dutch and Tycho are who come to mind) those are powerful squadrons but only ever affect one thing. Rhymer gives his ability to whatever you can cram into distance one, which is a ton. But still, we will have to see how everything shakes out with the new upgrades/ships.

I think Rhymer is a natural counter to Rebel MSU swarms. Without Rhymer, what is an Imperial player going to do against (yes, Lyr, I'm about to reference it) a Dodonna the Oppressor list? Raiders can't chase down CR90As before they get chewed apart. Demo is one ship and it will get vaporized. ISDs aren't maneuverable enough. VSDs are too slow. Take out Rhymer, and what Imperial counter is there to that list?

When facing Rebel opponents, we get to contemplate a chosen build and wonder how it will fare against what we run into. If you take your Rhymerball against MSU, you'll be glad you did. If you take your Rhymerball against a Rebel carrier build, you'll be less happy. But you'll probably get a mix, and at a tournament you might have some ups and downs based on your matchup. But thinking about your Imperial matchups, you have to plan a counter for the exact scenarios of Rhymerball and of Demolisher. A fleet that is poor against a Raider Swarm or against an Ackbar line has met its natural counter, but that's part of the rock/paper/scissors of gaming. A fleet that is poor against either Rhymer, Demo, or both is the definition of suck because those matchups are a guarantee.

A fleet that is poor against a Raider Swarm or against an Ackbar line has met its natural counter, but that's part of the rock/paper/scissors of gaming. A fleet that is poor against either Rhymer, Demo, or both is the definition of suck because those matchups are a guarantee.

Real world data doesn't support your assertion.

And Patrick, don't forget - there were no DeMSU builds at the tournament we attended. Actually, there was only a single Demo, and it was Demo Lite (Demo, OE and maybe APT?). Nineteen players isn't exactly a strong sample size, but it was majority Imperial players.

Different question;

Do people object that large ship only fleets are nigh on useless?

Different question;

Do people object that large ship only fleets are nigh on useless?

You need to define your question better. Is 2ISD + Rhymerball a large ship only fleet? Or ISD+VSd+VSD min squads?

Vsd is not a large ship....

I'm thinking dual ISD and dual MC80, as they're the only Large ships currently.

And I haven't seen one do well at a tournament. I tried a few in a beginner league in my area just to test them out, and wasn't impressed.

I'm thinking dual ISD and dual MC80, as they're the only Large ships currently.

And I haven't seen one do well at a tournament. I tried a few in a beginner league in my area just to test them out, and wasn't impressed.

Double ISD in top 4 in Louisville

I never use Rhymer, firesprays alone work well enough. As for demolisher, I love it, and it's a great ship, but it's not op, and it's not that hard to kill.

So two out of how many lists?

I stand by my statement. I, personally, have not seen it do well in a tournament. I have not been to tons of tournaments personally, so I am aware that this is anecdotal. But the data also seems to support that this is not a list that does well on average.

I can't tell if "Imperial Wedges" from Shmitty's data is Dual ISD, or just all ISD/VSD. Still, it's not a large Top 4/8 finisher.

EDIT - And with roughly 25 Regionals in the US alone, that's two out of 200 lists finishing Top 8.