I'm not too worried about beating him, just that the stupid zombie effect annoys the beejeezus out of me. I can't imagine how that got through play testing as a "Wow! That'll be fun for both sides!". It's as silly as some of the stuff you'd see from the very large British game company.

Come on, this is nothing compared to rerolling 1s if you talk to your imaginary horse... But rerolling everything if it actually talks back.....

Rhymer isnt the problem. Its the viability of zero squadron fleets which make a lot of imperial squadron types redundant. If rhymer was that scary then zero squad fleets wouldnt exist.

Other than Paul's list at Regionals, zero squadrons is faring very poorly. There is a positive correlation between squadrons and placement in Shmitty's data.

I agree and this is a real issue with Rhymer balance-wise. Its not the extra range he gives, it is the fact that he practically shuts down a lot of low-squad/zero-squad builds by allowing a bomber fleet to ignore ship-based AS upgrades.

Unfortunately I have only anecdotal evidence, but how often do you see QLT or PDR being used? And the main reason they are almost extinct is that they don't work against Rhymerballs.

Re: Rhymer

Honestly I don't think Point Defense Reroute or Quad Laser Turrets would get much use even without Rhymer in the game. Counter 1 is a 50% chance of doing 1 damage to a bomber on an attack. Given all bombers are 5+ HP, that's pretty poor (the only conceivable use is the upcoming jank combo with Agent Kallus, and even that isn't great, just amusing). Point Defense Reroute takes your blue flak dice and improves their damage odds from 50% to 62.5%. It does literally nothing for black flak dice. Also not great.

If there's one thing I think is actively good about Rhymer, it's that he punishes no squadron fleets (so I guess I would say that's a feature, not a bug). Those were all the rage back in wave one but nowadays it's practically suicide to show up without squadrons because a good player using a Rhymerball well will punish you for it, and ship-based flak simply isn't sufficient to fight back quickly enough. Given there are a number of squadrons that exist primarily to fight other squadrons, this creates gameplay space for assets like TIE Fighters and Interceptors on the Imperial side and gives more of a push for A-Wings and X-Wings on the Rebel side.

For what it's worth, though, I would support a mild nerf to Rhymer. You could make him only affect TIE Bombers, for example. You could make his effect only apply to squadrons within range 1 (a recommendation I liked earlier in this thread). The problem is that Imperial squadrons from here on out need to be balanced around the idea that they can be combined with Rhymer and you're basically always better off taking Rhymer once you're using bombers. Even with Firesprays, who are often getting in attacks naturally from turn 2 or 3 on, Rhymer is great for letting you get in at least one extra round of attacks before you normally would otherwise. That's naturally an extremely good bomber upgrade. With the upcoming Bomber Command fleet support upgrade, Rhymer's use is further incentivized because he makes it safer for your Gozanti to buff a big blob of bombers.

Re: Demolisher

We've been over this before on this forum numerous times. As of wave two, I feel Demolisher is too good. I want to wait and see how the wave 3 meta shakes things up before I commit to that position any more strongly. Flotillas seem to present some new tools to soft counter Demolisher, particularly the Clonisher variant we've seen thus far. Slicer Tools (especially with Tractor Beams) and Scatter defense tokens definitely offer the ability to actively mess with Demolisher and survive Demolisher shenanigans in response. Beyond that, Tagge on the Imperial side messes with the Clonisher's preferred tempo as well and I'm curious to see if Cracken offers another soft counter for some of the Rebel ships that had previously been less durable to a Demolisher attack run. Finally, the ability to pad fleet activations with flotillas could remove some of the first+last threat that currently makes Demolisher so terrifying.

I don't think it means Demolisher is going to no longer see play, but investing so heavily into Demolisher and bidding so high is probably going to be less appealing in light of the accumulated meta changes. If not, then I'm amenable to talking nerfs. I wouldn't be opposed to the "no Demolisher after Engine Techs" minor nerf that seems to have broad support here, though.

Off the top of my head,The best rebel strat for dealing for dealing with Rhymer is get Dutch and just pin Rhymer to the board. Though I do beleive this still lines up with the general idea of anti-bomber strat for rebels.

That. . .won't do anything. Rhymer never leaves home without Escorts, so you'd have to kill those first. And Dutch probably isn't going to last too long, or Rhymer and friends will just Intel away while Dutch takes a solid three or four rounds to kill that one TIE Advanced.

Rhymer isnt the problem. Its the viability of zero squadron fleets which make a lot of imperial squadron types redundant. If rhymer was that scary then zero squad fleets wouldnt exist.

Other than Paul's list at Regionals, zero squadrons is faring very poorly. There is a positive correlation between squadrons and placement in Shmitty's data.

I agree and this is a real issue with Rhymer balance-wise. Its not the extra range he gives, it is the fact that he practically shuts down a lot of low-squad/zero-squad builds by allowing a bomber fleet to ignore ship-based AS upgrades.

Unfortunately I have only anecdotal evidence, but how often do you see QLT or PDR being used? And the main reason they are almost extinct is that they don't work against Rhymerballs.

QLT and PDR are never used because they're just bad upgrades. QLT gives you a 50/50 shot at doing one point of damage against a bomber with a minimum of five hull. PDR is likely the worst upgrade in the entire game. First of all, it only affects Blue AS dice, which fire at Medium Range, but neuters its ability to Close Range. So now you have to get close to bombers, which is right where they want to be, to maybe, maybe do two points of damage instead of one to a five hull bomber. And now their probably within Range 1 of your ship.

The only ship that wants to get close to fire flak are Raiders, and PDR is pointless on them. This also merits a comparison:

PDR - Five points, re-roll Crit results against squadrons but only at Close Range, no effect against ships

Ordnance Experts - Four points, re-roll blank results against squadrons and ships

So OE is a point cheaper, works with more reliably damaging dice, and works against ships. What were they thinking when they wrote and added a points cost to PDR?

QLT and PDR are never used because they're just bad upgrades.

This is a common misconception. Both of this upgrades would be good for a low squad/no squad build if not for the Rhymer. Both of this add enough damage to a flak to expect bombers to die just in time (as opposed to one turn later or never).

And the point of both of the upgrades is not to buff a bomber-fighting ship, but to increase a flak damage for a ship that is already being bombed.

So, there is some evidence that's shows the Demolisher title and Rhymer are both very prevalent upgrades in overall attendance, top fleets, and winning fleets.

Based on the Imperial Assault article that I linked, FFG will errata cards if they are too prevalent in the meta.

What I am curious about is what is that threshold before FFG would act?

If only Imperial Assault had a master list of all of the forces taken to the Imperial Assault Worlds Championships last year, so we could see how much "too prevelant" actually is.

I was fortunate to go on vacation last year and on a whim ownloaded an Imperial assault podcast that talked about Worlds results. It was somewhere around 70%-80% of lists either taking a Royal Guard/Officer set or some variation of a double Rebel Saboteurs list The entire top eight was one of those two lists and heavily skewed towards the Imperials. Basically, it was impossible to argue that they weren't far and away better than anything else.

I'll chime in with my $.02...


I don't think there is enough diversity to say there is something broken in the game (although I'm definitely leaning towards a FAQ on ET equipped Demo). You have 4 ships on the Imperial side and 5 on the Rebel side and what, 16 squads to choose from? I think right now, it's just about getting another wave out or so and seeing how it pans out. Because if they keep adding units, and the same lists win over and over, then there is a problem. New lists come along every few months that shake things up. And credit is due to those who created those weapons. But so far, it sounds like we're just a few weeks away from somebody finding a new way to re-invent the wheel.

That being said, without new ships, I think we're going to stagnate coming up with the "new hotness". I'm definitely on board with saying the strategy and skill of the people playing will be the largest revelations without new units. I think this is the land we are currently in.

Imperials are dominating the Regional season, but not by that much. Honestly I think they are easier to play, but they definitely have a bit less diversity than the Rebels currently. IMO, that shows in the data.

Any strategy can work, it is up to the player to make it work. This is not X-Wing, 40k,etc where there is an end all be all to what you take (or near enough of that), this is Armada, where the experience of the player accounts for 75% of your game. 20% is list and he other 5% is a bit of luck

When you can prove those numbers scientifically and/or empirically, I will take them seriously. In the meantime, its just your personal opinion, not fact.

How do you suggest I go about this? I think shmitty's regionals data helps prove this. Players who used net listing but did not have the experience lost more often than they won. So that proves the experience, the lists did help them but not as much as experience would of helped them.

But the regionals data doesn't speak to the players' skill. We only know the archetypes of their fleets. We don't know how closely they stuck to direct netlisting, or where they got their list from at all. Or how long they've been playing Armada, in terms of time or in terms of games. Or how many tabletop games they've played before that. We don't even know what lists they ran against. Shmitty's data can't inform us on how player skill affects the ability to tackle unexpected or tricky opponents. Be careful about reading conclusions that can't be validated. We can say with certainty that Rhymerballs and Demolisher builds are very common at tournaments, and that they win a lot. I don't think it's justified to assume that the players of these lists must be a bunch of posers who aren't skilled enough to fly anything else.

Very true in fact. These are things we will never know.

And the fix for Riekan and his MSU plus unique squadrons? Is there an FAQ entry that takes away the just plain stupid effect he has? Hmmm?

Okay, I'll bite.

Crit effects crush Rieekan. Build a fleet to put ongoing crit effects on his ships and he's effectively neutered. Screed, Dodonna, APT's, Luke, Dodonna's Pride, any bomber. Go second and build to win your yellow objective, because he can't pick either PS or SP.

Beyond that, just practice against him. I played him religiously for the first half of the wave, and I've moved on to Dodonna now that people aren't thrown off by his impact on the activation order anymore.

I'm not too worried about beating him, just that the stupid zombie effect annoys the beejeezus out of me. I can't imagine how that got through play testing as a "Wow! That'll be fun for both sides!". It's as silly as some of the stuff you'd see from the very large British game company.

EDIT: And I worked for them way back when they released their space combat game, so I know of what I speak.

Sorry you don't like it. I think it's a lot of fun, so... Anecdote counterbalanced, I guess?

As for the British game company thing... Sorry, the simile is list on me. This is the only minis game I've ever played.

As for the British game company thing... Sorry, the simile is list on me. This is the only minis game I've ever played.

Games Workshop. Imagine you grow up loving Star Wars, then Disney buys it and they don't just get rid of the expanded universe, they have everything and everyone die in a fire, and it starts over again but is completely different. And incredibly lame. That's what GW did to their Warhammer players a year ago. /rant

I actually had a hilarious thought re: Wave 3 vs. Demo.

Demo rolls up, unloads into a blocking Flotilla, Intel Officers the Scatter. Flotilla discards. Round three, General Tagge brings the Scatter back, Demo unloads again, discard scatter again. Third shot kills the flotilla. Three Demo shots to kill a 20pt flotilla.

As for the British game company thing... Sorry, the simile is list on me. This is the only minis game I've ever played.

Games Workshop. Imagine you grow up loving Star Wars, then Disney buys it and they don't just get rid of the expanded universe, they have everything and everyone die in a fire, and it starts over again but is completely different. And incredibly lame. That's what GW did to their Warhammer players a year ago. /rant

I actually had a hilarious thought re: Wave 3 vs. Demo.

Demo rolls up, unloads into a blocking Flotilla, Intel Officers the Scatter. Flotilla discards. Round three, General Tagge brings the Scatter back, Demo unloads again, discard scatter again. Third shot kills the flotilla. Three Demo shots to kill a 20pt flotilla.

Yep. Demolisher is going to change to be useful in the new meta at least until Wave 4.

The best fix for such a small pool of cards and ships is simply having more waves and releases. Wave 4 should fix most of the problems.

The best fix for such a small pool of cards and ships is simply having more waves and releases. Wave 4 should fix most of the problems.

I think that's the big issue right now. You keep hitting the question, "Why not Demo/Rhymer?" because there aren't a lot of other options. You have four ships to chose from. One is only effective in multiples, as anti-squadron or as an escort. One is only points-effective as a carrier. One is so expensive that taking it limits your other choices. And the final one is waaaaaaay more powerful with a 10 point title upgrade. The only downside to bumping a Glad up to Demolisher is that you have to pay ten points for it. It's not like Slaved Turrets or an ability that requires you to sacrifice a die to trigger. It just works. Every round.

just because everyone brings spoons to a knife fight doesn't make the spoon better

just because everyone brings spoons to a knife fight doesn't make the spoon better

Wave 3 is going to change the game very significantly regarding Demo and Rhymer. The new combos and new fleet constructions provide hard counters to both. We'll see evidence of that pretty soon after they become legal in tournaments.

If we see Demo and Rhymer come back into play any time soon, it will be when Wave 4 launches.

Is there a problem in the meta now? Yes, most likely.

Flotillas will help. There are answers right now to Demolisher MSU. Flotillas will add to that answer in the form of activations, slicer tools, and blocking. That's quite a bit of utility there. Furthermore, Slicer tools are going to help against almost any fleet archetype. The title Demolisher will definitely still be strong and played. We'll just start to get more cat and mouse with the other ships so that Demolisher's power can really get unleashed.

I have less of a problem with Rhymer: The kinds of things that help against Rhymer also help against other bomber lists. Squadrons are in the meta. Flotillas are only going to incentivize them further. You'd best be prepared to play against them.

I'd say wait. Right now is an odd time. I don't really want to stop playing, but I don't really want to design new lists until the Flotillas get here. And wave 4 turns on wave 3's heels about a month later.

Why will Rhymer and Demolisher disappear with wave 3?

I have my gripes with Demolisher but I really don't get why people are so against it.

I have build several lists that do well but don't take Rhymer or Demolisher. They are not always the end all be all of a list.

Someome asked "Why would you not take them" well, first off they may conflict with your lists goal, second they may cause unwanted temptations in your play that could cause you to make mistakes or deviate from your plan.

There are many reasons, sure they are excellent at what they do bit they don't dominate on their own.

What FFG Will Do

I’m not going to suggest a change to either Demo or Rhymer, because we know that’s not FFG’s way, but I don’t want to be stuck with them ruling the game until some mythical Second Edition Armada comes around to remove them. FFG must know that Demo and Rhymer have been hogging the spotlight for a long time, and seriously overperforming in terms of how much of a points investment they require and in terms of the difficulty of making them work effectively. What they seem to favor as a solution is to introduce new units and upgrades that help the opponent defeat such tactics. To me, that’s a deeply unsatisfying solution. It makes sense from a business standpoint: You don’t want to tell people not to buy Gladiator and Imperial Fighter Expansions by crippling those units, so instead you might as well encourage sales of newer stuff that counters them. But just adding autoinclude counters to the autoinclude game-winners patches over the problem without fixing it. It in fact calcifies the meta even further.

This is a bit of a misconception. If you look at Imperial Assault, there were a couple of units that were dominating tournaments. FFG changed the abiltities on those cards through an FAQ. They later supplied updated cards through seasonal prize kits.

So, if FFG decides that Rhymer, Demo, or anything else is over represented, they will fix it.

Note: The same thing happened in Xwing, where Whisper & Echo were making a whole range of builds, pilots and PS noncompetitive enough to be practically obsolete.

It appeared to take quite a while for FFG to sort the data from the noise and realise it wasn't simply skilled players beating newer players (much like the demolisher, the phantom did take skill to use to full potential), but eventually they did change the way decloaking worked and fixed it in a way that kept phantoms relevant without making them simply roll over some matchups.

Believe it or not, FFG care about their games almost as much as we do

I have my gripes with Demolisher but I really don't get why people are so against it.

I have build several lists that do well but don't take Rhymer or Demolisher. They are not always the end all be all of a list.

Someome asked "Why would you not take them" well, first off they may conflict with your lists goal, second they may cause unwanted temptations in your play that could cause you to make mistakes or deviate from your plan.

There are many reasons, sure they are excellent at what they do bit they don't dominate on their own.

The reason why I'm against it is that you are almost guaranteed to face it. This means you have to build your list to counter it.

Every time I build a competitive list I have to think.....what will Demo do to it. This creates restrictions as to what you can take.

Rhymer is very good but can be countered by normal fighter cover fire...either by targeting him or the Intel that he is with.

I'm afraid for me there is no easy way to counter Demo.....the threat range with Engine Techs is obscene and 1st player allows him to almost auto-delete the target of his choice (aside from maybe some of the bigger ships)

The fact that people are taking ridiculous bids to go first with Demo shows you how much OP he is.

Sorry...rant over....just been done in by Demo far too many times

There are few ships that can survive a Demo run reliably - an MC80 with Advanced Projectors, an AF with Advanced Projectors (if Demo doesn't roll an Accuracy), and a Motti or Advanced Projectors ISD. Three ships out of nine, all requiring special upgrades, to survive an attack from a ship which can strike beyond any ship's maximum range. I think the reason it's so prevalent is because it doesn't take a tremendous amount of skill to use, and its immensely powerful. You do need skill to pull it off well, but even in the hands of a mediocre player, Demo is deadlier than almost anything else.

As several people have said, I think the easiest way to balance out Demo is to FAQ when it makes its attack. Just change it to after normal movement, not ET movement. It will still be a massively useful upgrade that people will still field often, and it could still chase down Speed 4 ships (assuming it starts close to the ship, it can move Speed 3 back into Close Range, fire, then ET right up next to it for another pass next round).

Rhymer is different, though. Demolisher is borderline broken, and if not then overpowered. But I think this thread reinforces the fact that Rhymer is taken a lot because, well, why not? He adds a ton of maneuverability and increased effective range for a fleet that suffers from speed, maneuverability and effective range. But it's not game breaking. I've fielded Rhymer a lot, and I would say that he adds maybe one extra round of bomber shooting per game. It's either early on, when I can't quite get into Close Range, or toward the end of the game when I'm chasing down something like a CR90. Outside of that, I'm either lobbing bombs at Close Range anyway, or intentionally moving to Medium Range just to keep my options open. But remember that TIE Bombers are Speed 4, so there aren't a lot of targets that they can't hit if they really want to.

I think Rhymer is a natural counter to Rebel MSU swarms. Without Rhymer, what is an Imperial player going to do against (yes, Lyr, I'm about to reference it) a Dodonna the Oppressor list? Raiders can't chase down CR90As before they get chewed apart. Demo is one ship and it will get vaporized. ISDs aren't maneuverable enough. VSDs are too slow. Take out Rhymer, and what Imperial counter is there to that list?

That being said, without new ships, I think we're going to stagnate coming up with the "new hotness". I'm definitely on board with saying the strategy and skill of the people playing will be the largest revelations without new units. I think this is the land we are currently in.

Imperials are dominating the Regional season, but not by that much. Honestly I think they are easier to play, but they definitely have a bit less diversity than the Rebels currently. IMO, that shows in the data.

I agree with Stasy, the Imperials feel like they are OP not because they are as a whole but because they have limited good choices and people gravitate towards the no brainer builds and Demo and Rhymer Balls fall into this category. The rebels have so many good competitive builds that can win but they are harder to win with. All the statistical data shows me is that it is easier to win with Empire Demo and Rhymer builds for the average player so you lots more of them. This doesnt take away from any of the winners because I guarantee they could win with Rebel builds too.

Whenever I build Imperial builds I gravitate towards Demo and Rhymer too but mainly because I dont feel like I can guarantee winning with other builds. I feel that the Mon Mothma TRC Vette/Mc-30 builds are the biggest problem in the meta right now and they are not getting the attention because they are harder to fly.

PT106 I like your list, but ironically I have played lists almost identical to it or very similar in concept with my fireball/demo/ISD list and won pretty reliably. Always found that it's very difficult with good placement of obstacles and the objectives that I take for those types of lists to prosper becaue a good fireball player can present a no-win conundrum.

Before you say "yeah but I'll just rush you" sure, I've seen that tried and it's virtually impossible to do that without being predictable (especially since your entire fleet will be on the table by the time I'm done placing squadrons) and it is almost hillariously simple to get full value from the fireball stripping the shields and then Demo and the ISD come to play. Inevitably one ISD will be in front of the other and it WILL die and then I WILL run away and leave the fireball to do work.

I'm not even claiming to be a great player, I've just seen too many zero squad lists taken to bits by a good bomber pusher. Here's the rub then: if you make this list work against those kinds of fleets it's because YOU are a great player, which is great for you, but it doesn't speak to the competitive viability of the build on its own.

On the other hand, ME as a mediocre player the other day ran a DeMSU list pulled literally off the internet (as my friend wanted to practice against one and I had never played one) and in my first run with one pretty much tabled him. I made SO many stupid mistakes and it didn't even matter.

I can actually see how your list would work pretty well VS a DeMSU list and a poorly run Reeikan list (i say poorly run because a well run one will dodge ISDs front arcs all day) but if it's ME playing i'd get tabled by the first reikaan aces list or Rhymerball or TRC90 list.

That being said, without new ships, I think we're going to stagnate coming up with the "new hotness". I'm definitely on board with saying the strategy and skill of the people playing will be the largest revelations without new units. I think this is the land we are currently in.

Imperials are dominating the Regional season, but not by that much. Honestly I think they are easier to play, but they definitely have a bit less diversity than the Rebels currently. IMO, that shows in the data.

I agree with Stasy, the Imperials feel like they are OP not because they are as a whole but because they have limited good choices and people gravitate towards the no brainer builds and Demo and Rhymer Balls fall into this category. The rebels have so many good competitive builds that can win but they are harder to win with. All the statistical data shows me is that it is easier to win with Empire Demo and Rhymer builds for the average player so you lots more of them. This doesnt take away from any of the winners because I guarantee they could win with Rebel builds too.

Whenever I build Imperial builds I gravitate towards Demo and Rhymer too but mainly because I dont feel like I can guarantee winning with other builds. I feel that the Mon Mothma TRC Vette/Mc-30 builds are the biggest problem in the meta right now and they are not getting the attention because they are harder to fly.

Very true, but when they are flown well they are game breaking. I KNEW there was a reason I bought extra 6 CR90s...now the problem is getting good with them...

When I was watching one of the Toronto players flying a reikaan spam list it was pretty much disgusting. He kept popping 4-6 damage from those little bastards over and over and over. Sure he lost a couple of them but it doesn't matter much when you table your opponent and play a good objective.

People forget that one of the reasons a rhymer or fireball is so good for the points is that lots of small damage has higher value than a little big damage and TRC90s are kings of this.

I think that player skill level is huge. Rhymerball lists are just easier to field, because you don't have to worry much about the most difficult aspect of the game - maneuvering. A list that lives and dies on maneuvering takes a lot of skill, experience and practice. With a max of one year under our belts, the number of Armada players with the requisite qualifications are few. I do really well with a triple Vic Rhymer list because my ships are almost irrelevant. I just point them in the general direction of what I want to kill, keep my squadrons within Long Range, and start rolling dice. True, it takes some skill and forward thinking to make sure you don't get completely flanked. But here's the kicker - it's easier for me to prevent your flanking than it is for you to flank me.

Why? Simple. Ships that are good at flanking are small and fast. A list built entirely of these ships has little staying power, so you must be good at maneuvering for the fleet to perform well. Since most people don't have the experience with maneuvering, they default to one or two little flankers and some bigger ships that are easier to use. Since those bigger ships are easier to keep in my front arc and worth more points, they have my focus and they will probably die. Then I can ignore your one or two CR90s or Raiders, because they're irrelevant. What's the likelihood of them destroying a Motti VSD on their own? And I'll gladly trade an 80pt VSD for your more expensive ships and your squadrons. Add to this the fact that Rhymer and friends will start pounding you well before you get a shot off, and now your more powerful ships are limping into combat against the front arc of three VSDs.

This is the same reason people defaulted to Ackbar toilet bowls for a while. Maneuvering was taken out of the game. Simply circle your opponent and drown them in red dice. But the counter to that is easier (just get one ship in front of it). Now an Ackbar list needs to maneuver with less-maneuverable ships to be effective, so it's no longer viable as a beginner, less-experienced option. But in the hands of an experienced player, it can be deadly. Trying to run one ship in front to block the MC80 can lead to that MC80 slashing your faster ship and still hitting your bigger ships. But that takes experience to pull off, which, again, not a lot of people have yet.

Problem always comes down to the idea of Sheeple. Designing your own fleet with dedicated tactics is hard and takes experience, people are too lazy for that, so copy paste a list and tactics is the way for many.

Ever since the beginning of Internet Sites that talk about how to game this has been an issue. Seen it millions of times and it won't change because the issue is not the game, it's people. We love power and an advantage. We cheer on the underdogs in movies but we never take that risk ourselves in gaming. We play it safe.

I am a cynic but no one can't deny this is the norm, even if there are outliers.