Reinholt, I agree with you 100%.

There is nothing I can think of to counter Rhymer without completely altering what he does, and even then the only fair thing I can think of is having him operate kind of like Flight Controllers - only the squadrons activated at the same time get his ability. A large carrier could still activate him and all of the bombers around him same as now, but you wouldn't be able to park the 'Ball somewhere and just spam at Medium Range. The big issue there is, how do you explain that clearly?

I think the issue is that, if you take both Rhymer and Demo out of the equation, Imperials are in trouble. What do they have that can chase down Rebel ships? The Interdictor will help to that end, but it, too, has to be within a certain range to trigger.

I think the issue is that, if you take both Rhymer and Demo out of the equation, Imperials are in trouble. What do they have that can chase down Rebel ships? The Interdictor will help to that end, but it, too, has to be within a certain range to trigger.

I'm not so certain. I think if we banned both of those, they are still pretty solid. The tactics may just have to change, but Paul (as one example) has shown this still works.

Likewise, please note I'm NOT advocating about taking Demolisher out of the equation, just taking the ability to leap from beyond long range into short range and fire three times in a row out of the equation. I still think Demolisher will be good and frequently fielded, but we won't be having arguments about the taxonomy of Shmitty's data because every Imperial list other than Rhymerballs has Demolisher and we don't agree on how to classify the archetypes.

Right now we are in a place where the majority of wins are Imperial, and the majority of Imperial wins are Demolisher and Rhymer driven. This is a factual statement. If we reduce both in power, and Rebels start winning while Imperials can't compete, then Imperials need a bit more work. If we reduce both in power and it drops to 50-50, this is where it should be (assuming equal amounts of each to begin with in the hands of good players).

Quite bluntly, I'm not even sure the Rhymer change will alter the appropriate function of well-played Imperial bomber lists much. If you take boosted comms and use your ships well and conservatively, you are almost in the same place. What it will really change is the ability to turtle in the corner while Rhymer, Dengar, and 4 Firesprays mosey on out and pound someone for 3-4 turns in a row while you hide, which is a boring and degenerative game state for Armada to exist in. I'm kind of totally okay with that not being a thing.

Rebels should have range and maneuverability. A 3 VSD fleet should have to be exceptionally paranoid about being outmaneuvered, to the exact same extent a 6 CR90 fleet should have to be exceptionally paranoid about being cornered. However, the problem right now is that the former can be mitigated by just holding the Rhymerball in front of you like a massive shield, while the latter has literally no way to avoid a Demolisher alpha strike other than just not putting ships on the board.

reegsk, if only I was going to the store tonight, I'd see your list in action. You'll have to update us on how it does. I'll say best of luck to you and your anti-meta fleet.

I think we can all agree that the absence of Demolisher is quite conspicuous, though. There's a Demolisher-shaped hole left in it, and while I'm sure you'll make up for with expert play, it would simply be more powerful and easier if you gave in to the dark side. While a protest fleet can show possibility, if you asked for any feedback on how to improve your list, "just add Demolisher" would be the simple truth.

And the fix for Riekan and his MSU plus unique squadrons? Is there an FAQ entry that takes away the just plain stupid effect he has? Hmmm?

@Hastatior

I wouldn't call my fleet amazing, however I think that it is strong enough and relevant enough to the topic to be mentioned here.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/222179-aar-raleigh-regional-pictures/

@Reinholt

I agree with yours thoughts about Demolisher and actually like your idea of a fix. And I agree that this kind of fix is subtle enough to be better then relying on the meta to police itself.

As far as bombers go, I'm thinking about a bomber-spam fleet (12-bombers (or 6 Firesprays), 2 Jumpmasters) operating in multiple wolfpacks. The idea still needs to be validated, but this kind of fleet will benefit less from Rhymer for him not to be an autoinclude (and I totally agree that in general he is amazing). I still feel that one of the ways to weaken Rhymer enough is to remove nerfs from ship-based AS (and we might see that coming based on the inclusion of QLT into Interdictor pack (or it may be my wishful thinking)).

Motti is a bit of a trolling (given that the same statistics that shows Demo and Rhymer prevalence, shows Motti's prevalence as well), however it is a concern of mine. He is way too good and is cheap enough, so every Imperial fleet builder starts with the thought: "what is the reason I'm not using Motti for this fleet?". I still feel that both Vader and Tarkin ended up being too expensive for their abilities (or are hindered by the fact that Imperials are better spending these extra 10-15 points on ships) and hope to see new good Imperial admirals.

I still say rhymer is overrated because he is really only effective when you have squadron supremacy... Which is provided by mithil+fel

I think mithil and fel are really what makes rhymer work

Rhymer has a wave 3 counter.

Bright Hope - Slicer Tools.

Tie bombers with their single black dice are going to absolutely hate trying to kill Bright Hope whilst she dances around the carriers taking away the one thing Rhymer and the gang NEED, activations.

Thats a hard counter.

Amussingly, add tractor beams and you have a hard counter to demolisher too, just a much much much harder one to pull of. Taunting Demo at medium range will be great fun though.

SHHHHH you are telling everyone my planned counter ^_~

Rhymer is easy to deal with. Currently, TIE Bombers miss every 1 in 4 times (depending on who you play), this means that you. Don't take as much pain as one would think. The problem is, you have people who don't deal with the actual threat. I. E, the ships. If you take out the ships fast or fast enough you can strand Rhymer.

There are also other counters, Dash and Wedge can easily come in and neuter Rhymer from bouncing around, Mauler Mithel is another great counter, and let's not forget my favorite, overlapping fields of Anti-squadron fire.

Demolisher is a pain. Wave 3 should hurt him a lot though. As Ginkapo noticed, Tractor Beams and Slicer Tools from a Flotilla will hamper him HARD! Keeping him off those Navigate commands and reducing his speed. You will have a blast!

I still say rhymer is overrated because he is really only effective when you have squadron supremacy... Which is provided by mithil+fel

I think mithil and fel are really what makes rhymer work

I havn't seen Mithel or Fel in a long time...

Rhymer Balls? Everywhere.

Because Dengar (or at least Jumpmaster 5000)

You don't need squadron supremacy when you just ignore them and shoot ships at medium range anyway.

I havn't seen Mithel or Fel in a long time...

Rhymer Balls? Everywhere.

I wouldn't worry about it. I think those antisquad specialists gonna get some love soon.

And the fix for Riekan and his MSU plus unique squadrons? Is there an FAQ entry that takes away the just plain stupid effect he has? Hmmm?

Okay, I'll bite.

Crit effects crush Rieekan. Build a fleet to put ongoing crit effects on his ships and he's effectively neutered. Screed, Dodonna, APT's, Luke, Dodonna's Pride, any bomber. Go second and build to win your yellow objective, because he can't pick either PS or SP.

Beyond that, just practice against him. I played him religiously for the first half of the wave, and I've moved on to Dodonna now that people aren't thrown off by his impact on the activation order anymore.

After a few games of Wave 3, Demolisher isn't done but it is hurt, and Rhymerballs are in for a world of pain.

I think the counter to rhymer exists but FFG put it in the wrong slot. Cluster bombs

also cracken will be a solid counter to rhymer

also cracken will be a solid counter to rhymer

How so? Cracken does not work against squads....

Rhymer is the counter to Cracken...

yup brain fart!

Shoutout to pt106 for kicking our asses here in NC using neither Demo nor Rhymer.

2 sentences in and this was literally the first thing that came to mind... so glad you got first

After a few games of Wave 3, Demolisher isn't done but it is hurt, and Rhymerballs are in for a world of pain.

Care to elaborate?

Shoutout to pt106 for kicking our asses here in NC using neither Demo nor Rhymer.

2 sentences in and this was literally the first thing that came to mind... so glad you got first

Once again, though: the fact that it is possible to win with Imperials with neither Rhymer nor Demolisher has no bearing on whether the two cards are too powerful. All it shows is that Imperials are viable without them.

Rhymerballs are in for a world of pain.

Genuine question, how so??

Once again, though: the fact that it is possible to win with Imperials with neither Rhymer nor Demolisher has no bearing on whether the two cards are too powerful. All it shows is that Imperials are viable without them.

What it shows though is the possibility of a competitive Imperial build that does not and can not benefit from either Rhymer or Demolisher. Thus it answers some of OP rants: "my choices in Imperial fleet-building are: build around the two obviously superior options, or suck on purpose out of protest" and "there’s still nothing that can do Demolisher’s job better than Demolisher. Or even anywhere close to as good", showing that Imperials meta is not as one-sided as he was afraid.

Once again, though: the fact that it is possible to win with Imperials with neither Rhymer nor Demolisher has no bearing on whether the two cards are too powerful. All it shows is that Imperials are viable without them.

What it shows though is the possibility of a competitive Imperial build that does not and can not benefit from either Rhymer or Demolisher. Thus it answers some of OP rants: "my choices in Imperial fleet-building are: build around the two obviously superior options, or suck on purpose out of protest" and "there’s still nothing that can do Demolisher’s job better than Demolisher. Or even anywhere close to as good", showing that Imperials meta is not as one-sided as he was afraid.

Your first sentence is almost exactly what I said, so yeah, I agree on that. The Imperials are still competitive even without those two upgrades. I don't think I've seen anyone here dispute that, though I may have misinterpreted.

It doesn't say anything about whether or not there is anything else that can do Demo's job anywhere close to as well as Demo. And you only need to look at the regionals data to see that that is true.

Rhymerballs are in for a world of pain.

Genuine question, how so??

Okay, so there are definitely things to do against Demo or Rhymer or both. As very, extremely good as they are, their impact can be lessened, mitigated, countered, contained. But don't look to counters to change the metagame.

We already have counters in the game, and we have all along. Rhymer will do less well against lists that have Mauler Mithel, IG-88, Cluster Bombs, Intel, Counter, Raiders. Demolisher will do less well against initiative, Corvette swarms, Tractor Beams, bombers, and XI7s. If FFG released even more counters to these units, we'd probably see their win percentages come down. But Imperial players would still run them in lists because there still aren't alternatives. Your lists still wouldn't be improved by deviating from the strategy.

So basically, demo and rhymer are overpowered due to the prevalence of netlisting amongst imperial ranks?

Its wave 2, how many choices do you want? Increase the number of units and specific strategies will reduce. The interdictor isnt a counter to rhymer or demo, its the new fleet keystone.

But Imperial players would still run them in lists because there still aren't alternatives. Your lists still wouldn't be improved by deviating from the strategy.

And this is the statement that I'm challenging by showing a list (and a strategy) that can't benefit from either of these but still is pretty strong.