I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

But we don't really know how much of Rhymer success should be attributed to Rhymer himself and how much is the success of Imperial bomber lists in general. (I tend to feel that it's more of the latter).

As for the reasons to not bring Rhymer: to maximize AS output (bring two bombers instead) or to be able to divide your bomber force to attack two targets at once. Its not for every fleet, however I can see situations where this choice will be valid.

I guess I really only mean my statement in regards to Demo. I haven't felt much sting from Rhymer. As for Demo, I feel like I counter him pretty well already. I fought two Demo lists on Saturday in Marietta and lost to none of them. It's not that he's not good, it's just what pt106 said. If you know he's coming, there are things you can do to give you an edge.

People call him broken all the time, he really isn't. He is Good for sure but not the End all/ be all of Imperial squads

I guess I really only mean my statement in regards to Demo. I haven't felt much sting from Rhymer. As for Demo, I feel like I counter him pretty well already. I fought two Demo lists on Saturday in Marietta and lost to none of them. It's not that he's not good, it's just what pt106 said. If you know he's coming, there are things you can do to give you an edge.

I agree on the Rhymer piece of it, maybe not the Demo piece as much. I feel like if I lose to Rhymer, I probably would have lost to the same list with Rhymer replaced by another TIE bomber. Rhymer might help get a few additional shots, but that's it. He also tends to bunch the bombers, meaning they're either easier to lock down, or the fleet also needs to include an intel squad, meaning Rhymer is not as cheap as it seems.

As for Demo, I still don't feel comfortable countering it in a way that doesn't hurt me against non-Demo fleets.

Also...if you face a player who rolls a Rhymer ball and does that Imp slow roll "I'ma go zero and you come to me" bs...set your dials to zero, flip him the bird and go to the dealers room.

I honestly have zero tolerance for that camper bulls*it...

why so hostile?

It's a legitimate strategy, just like rebels setting up perpendicular in their deployment zone to Abuse ackbar

Especially considering Vics weakness, they pretty much have to be slow rolled or else the player will lose

I'm not hostile, I just got tired of seeing it happen over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

I really really think it's a fowl move to do that, because you know if you go at him you'll most likely lose, so why go after him...if he wants to do something like that, fine set your dials to zero and watch the game wind down...he moves or he doesn't. A turtle list like that basically holds the game hostage, and that isn't what I like to do.

I agree with Clon again. Rhymer is good, but it's the bombers that are the reason the list does well. Most of the time, I could get my bombers in distance 1 anyway if I wanted.

I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

As for the reasons to not bring Rhymer: to maximize AS output (bring two bombers instead) or to be able to divide your bomber force to attack two targets at once.

The first is a very marginal increase (+.5 damage), plus you're losing those two braces.

The second isn't valid: Rhymer doesn't stop you from splitting your bombers. His ability is just so good that it strongly disincentivizes you from doing so. And if you would sacrifice superior positioning to get that ability, how is that an argument against how powerful it is?

There actually is a Rhymer-specific counter, it is just that it is terrible: Cluster Bombs.

Eh, Cluster Bombs won't stop him. You get three damage, he Braces to two, then hides behind Escorts the rest of the game.

I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

As for the reasons to not bring Rhymer: to maximize AS output (bring two bombers instead) or to be able to divide your bomber force to attack two targets at once.

The first is a very marginal increase (+.5 damage), plus you're losing those two braces.

The second isn't valid: Rhymer doesn't stop you from splitting your bombers. His ability is just so good that it strongly disincentivizes you from doing so. And if you would sacrifice superior positioning to get that ability, how is that an argument against how powerful it is?

Not to mention splitting one squadron into two now requires more squadron activations, and as a regular bomber player I always build my fleets on an almost 1:1 activation/squadron basis. And to that second point, yes, Rhymer doesn't prevent you from splitting your squadrons. And even if you don't take Rhymer, you're still going to want an Intel ship. Even moreso, because your bombers will have to stay closer to their escorts.

I'm not hostile, I just got tired of seeing it happen over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

There are counters though, remember there lack of mobility gives you all the control. This is Especially powerful with swarms where you can leverage your activations to pick them apart with little retort.

Rhymer has a wave 3 counter.

Bright Hope - Slicer Tools.

Tie bombers with their single black dice are going to absolutely hate trying to kill Bright Hope whilst she dances around the carriers taking away the one thing Rhymer and the gang NEED, activations.

Thats a hard counter.

Amussingly, add tractor beams and you have a hard counter to demolisher too, just a much much much harder one to pull of. Taunting Demo at medium range will be great fun though.

There actually is a Rhymer-specific counter, it is just that it is terrible: Cluster Bombs.

Eh, Cluster Bombs won't stop him. You get three damage, he Braces to two, then hides behind Escorts the rest of the game.

Rhymer actually can't brace CB damage as it isn't an attack. Still pretty weak considering the slot it takes.

I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

As for the reasons to not bring Rhymer: to maximize AS output (bring two bombers instead) or to be able to divide your bomber force to attack two targets at once.

The first is a very marginal increase (+.5 damage), plus you're losing those two braces.

The second isn't valid: Rhymer doesn't stop you from splitting your bombers. His ability is just so good that it strongly disincentivizes you from doing so. And if you would sacrifice superior positioning to get that ability, how is that an argument against how powerful it is?

Not to mention splitting one squadron into two now requires more squadron activations, and as a regular bomber player I always build my fleets on an almost 1:1 activation/squadron basis. And to that second point, yes, Rhymer doesn't prevent you from splitting your squadrons. And even if you don't take Rhymer, you're still going to want an Intel ship. Even moreso, because your bombers will have to stay closer to their escorts.

All true, however I can see fleets being built around the idea of two independent bomber wings to exploit the fact that your opponent's fighter wing can't be in two places at once. And Rhymer doesn't synergize well with that concept.

And pasewi, if you want me to slap youaround with Insidious and non-Rhymer Bombers, I'd be happy to do so.

I know we could all debate how to best and counter Demo and Rhymer. My main gripe isn't that they're unbeatable. It's that there's not any good reason not to include them in a list. There are hardly any Imperial lists that are better off for not including either of these cards. And that makes me sad as someone who likes novelty, theme, and expression. I just want other choices.

I think that won't seriously happen until well past wave 4, when we have many more ships to choose from. So I may defect to the scummy Rebel Alliance.

I'm not hostile, I just got tired of seeing it happen over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

well if that's ALL your opponents tend to do (well most of what they do) I could see that being annoying haha.

There are counters though, remember there lack of mobility gives you all the control. This is Especially powerful with swarms where you can leverage your activations to pick them apart with little retort.

To be fair I've seen Ackbar's toilet cleaning service one too many times as well.

Hence why I'm looking forward to Liberty...I can have a fleet that will fight from range. It might force people outta their corners when they face a Rebel fleet with activations that can snipe them at range.

Hence why the next waves will REALLY shake things up.

I'll say in pasewi's defense, it probably helps his case that we have this conversation about Demo several times a week.

Edit: Hell, even when we're not actively talking about Demo, we start talking about Demo.

What I want to see is an ISD with Insidious combo which brings Advanced Gunnery, Hyperspace Assualt and Intel Sweep to great effect. In theory this should be obscene if someone can work out how to make it sing.

I know we could all debate how to best and counter Demo and Rhymer. My main gripe isn't that they're unbeatable. It's that there's not any good reason not to include them in a list. There are hardly any Imperial lists that are better off for not including either of these cards. And that makes me sad as someone who likes novelty, theme, and expression. I just want other choices.

I think that won't seriously happen until well past wave 4, when we have many more ships to choose from. So I may defect to the scummy Rebel Alliance.

Well... there are other choices. For example (I'm biased here, I know), I can see 2ISD MSU as one of them in wave 3, as arrival of flotillas frees up enough points to kit that list in a multiple ways.

You mean like the list I'm bringing to a league game tonight?

Advanced Gunnery, Hyperspace Assault, Intel Sweep

ISD-I

- Flight Controllers

- Expanded Hangar Bay

- Leading Shots

GSD-I

- Insidious

- Ordnance Experts

- Assault Proton Torpedoes

GSD-I

- Ordnance Experts

- Assault Proton Torpedoes

RDR-I

- Admiral Ozzel

Mauler Mithel

Howlrunner

3 x TIE Interceptors

The idea is pretty straightforward. The ISD and probably the non-unique GSD buddy up with the GSD on the flank, then start punching things. Hard. The Raider dances around and laughs, maybe chases down some ships/finishes ships off. Insidious does its damnedest to get behind you. The fighters all get activated at once, punch four Bombers dead, then probably die, but not before they severely hamper whatever my opponent has for squadrons.

EDIT - And I'm not saying I would bring this to a tournament, per se, but it's an intentional effort to build a non-Demo, non-Rhymer list that still makes sense.

What is the best anti demo list for rebs and imperials that you can build with wave 1 and 2? Obviously it shouldn't include a demo of my own.

I'd like to shake up my meta with a hard counter lol.

Rieekan. Just. . .Rieekan. "Oh, your Demo bombed my big ship? Nah, son, now it's going to shoot your face off before it dies."

And honestly, I would think Rhymer would be a hard Demo counter. I was disappointed I didn't face a DeMSU at Regionals, because I wanted to test myself against it. Long Range plus Medium Range is further than Demo can strike, so you can start peppering it early.

What I want to see is an ISD with Insidious combo which brings Advanced Gunnery, Hyperspace Assualt and Intel Sweep to great effect. In theory this should be obscene if someone can work out how to make it sing.

+++ Igg (399pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (399pts) ++

+ Gladiator Star Destroyer (143pts) +

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (75pts) [Assault Proton Torpedoes (5pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts), •Demolisher (10pts)]

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (68pts) [Assault Proton Torpedoes (5pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts), •Insidious (3pts)]

+ Imperial Star Destroyer (156pts) +

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (156pts) [boosted Comms (4pts), Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts), Flight Controllers (6pts), •Admiral Screed (26pts), •Avenger (5pts)]

+ Squadrons (100pts) +

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Bomber Squadron (9pts)

TIE Bomber Squadron (9pts)

TIE Bomber Squadron (9pts)

•"Mauler" Mithel (15pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

•Soontir Fel (18pts)

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

It's funny cause the local meta i've observed around here has basically moved away from Imperials all together.

I dropped by a tournament just this weekend (slept in and missed registration) to see what was up and out of 8 players 6 were rebels. In this particular meta some highly skilled players have evolved away from DeMSU type lists towards Reeikan MSU lists.

If you start doing the math, TRC90s and nebs are incredibly point efficient, incredibly fast and manouverable and can pump out the best kind of damage: small-medium damage points across many attacks (which defense tokens are least efficient against). You can happily feed a 50 something point corvette to demo in the knowledge that Demo won't last long against concentrated flea-bites and there goes 90 points for 50 and depending on the build you already started with activation advantage anyway.

Rhymerball? that's ok, your carriers just got swarmed and bumped to death.

With skillful arc-dodging and ramming and abuse of TRCs you can truly dominate with a reeikan MSU list. I cooked one up recently that is going to be disgusting with 3 TRC90As 3 SW90Bs and salvation Neb. The true achillies heel in this game is actually the cost imbalance for small ships with few upgrades and reeikan zombies exacerbates it by removing the only weakness on those which is the tendency to die before having some effect.

My house table sees a lot of rebel victories as well.

It's funny cause the local meta i've observed around here has basically moved away from Imperials all together.

I dropped by a tournament just this weekend (slept in and missed registration) to see what was up and out of 8 players 6 were rebels. In this particular meta some highly skilled players have evolved away from DeMSU type lists towards Reeikan MSU lists.

If you start doing the math, TRC90s and nebs are incredibly point efficient, incredibly fast and manouverable and can pump out the best kind of damage: small-medium damage points across many attacks (which defense tokens are least efficient against). You can happily feed a 50 something point corvette to demo in the knowledge that Demo won't last long against concentrated flea-bites and there goes 90 points for 50 and depending on the build you already started with activation advantage anyway.

Rhymerball? that's ok, your carriers just got swarmed and bumped to death.

With skillful arc-dodging and ramming and abuse of TRCs you can truly dominate with a reeikan MSU list. I cooked one up recently that is going to be disgusting with 3 TRC90As 3 SW90Bs and salvation Neb. The true achillies heel in this game is actually the cost imbalance for small ships with few upgrades and reeikan zombies exacerbates it by removing the only weakness on those which is the tendency to die before having some effect.

And then you encounter a fleet like mine that preys on DeMSU counters while being not bad against DeMSU itself

It's funny cause the local meta i've observed around here has basically moved away from Imperials all together.

I dropped by a tournament just this weekend (slept in and missed registration) to see what was up and out of 8 players 6 were rebels. In this particular meta some highly skilled players have evolved away from DeMSU type lists towards Reeikan MSU lists.

If you start doing the math, TRC90s and nebs are incredibly point efficient, incredibly fast and manouverable and can pump out the best kind of damage: small-medium damage points across many attacks (which defense tokens are least efficient against). You can happily feed a 50 something point corvette to demo in the knowledge that Demo won't last long against concentrated flea-bites and there goes 90 points for 50 and depending on the build you already started with activation advantage anyway.

Rhymerball? that's ok, your carriers just got swarmed and bumped to death.

With skillful arc-dodging and ramming and abuse of TRCs you can truly dominate with a reeikan MSU list. I cooked one up recently that is going to be disgusting with 3 TRC90As 3 SW90Bs and salvation Neb. The true achillies heel in this game is actually the cost imbalance for small ships with few upgrades and reeikan zombies exacerbates it by removing the only weakness on those which is the tendency to die before having some effect.

And then you encounter a fleet like mine that preys on DeMSU counters while being not bad against DeMSU itself

Sure, everybody has the perfect solution to everything until it hits the mat. The Meta here is pretty interesting especially since we (in Canada) have players going to the states and winning or placing high (top 3s) in regionals there while being a very small group of players. I'm an average player and watching some of these guys play is very impressive. What is in this amazing fleet of yours that no-one has thought of and beats the mathematically game breaking power of MSU?

Late to the party, as usual, so a few brief notes:

Demolisher

• I don't think Demolisher on a stand-alone basis is a problem. Demolisher from someone playing 2nd, or Demolisher without Engine Techs is good. It's not great. It's good.
• Demolisher, when someone goes first, with Engine Techs, is a real problem. You can move from beyond long range into shooting 3 times at close range before the other person can act. This is, shall we say, not ideal. Are there solutions? Yes. Does the need to bring these solutions deform the meta and eliminate many otherwise viable options? Also yes.

Fix: don't let Demolisher fire after using Engine Techs. I think this change alone would solve the DeMSU option as you cannot strike from beyond long range in the same fashion, and likewise, Demo cannot chase speed 4 ships around the map damaging them over and over at close range. Demolisher will still be quite good, but no longer "40 point bid to make a 10 point title, so essentially, 50 points" good. In short, I think you can fix the Demolisher impact on the meta with a quick FAQ change.

Rhymer

• I am going to go out on a limb here and disagree with Paul: I don't think there is ever a situation on the Imperial side where if you have brought any kind of bomber, it's not a better idea to find the points to bring Rhymer. The threat extension from range 1 to medium ship range is massive. For an equivalent effect, imagine a CR90A with TRC that can shoot one full short range ruler stick beyond long range.
• I also think Rhymer falls into one of the two areas where the worst point-related mistakes tend to happen in strategy games overall: synergy effects. Rhymer, if he could use his ability on his own, would be medium poor. One extra die at medium is not worth writing home about, but it could be solid. Rhymer, passing that ability to many squadrons around him, is an absolute nightmare. Put differently, if I told you I could make six Firesprays all shoot at medium range on their own against ships, how much would you pay for that? It's probably more than 2 points per ship. Thankfully a Rebel didn't have this ability, or the uncontrollable sobbing about B-Wings would have crashed this forum long, long ago (in a galaxy far, far away).

Fix: This is harder. You need to errata Rhymer to take away the core of what makes him good. He's probably a solid but not auto-include choice if his ability changes to "Range 2". He's definitely not an auto-include if it only impacts him. However, to me, Rhymer is the most auto-include squadron in the game for the Imperials (he's even a good pick with non-bombers, which tells you about how good he is), and he should either go up in cost or have his ability modified so that it can't just apply to everything in a range 1 bubble or add as much range.

Motti

• Paul, stop trolling!
• I kid, but what I really mean is this: I'm going to reserve judgment here until we see more commanders come out. Right now, part of what is impacting commander choice is Demolisher (that's why Rebels basically only play Rieekan, as they want to fight at long range with most other admirals and ET Demo literally removes that option from the game), and part of it is the limited pool of cards (Tarkin is overcosted, Ozzel is Ozzel, so really, Imperials are picking between Screed and Motti in most cases). I want to see where we are post wave 4 before I judge this.

Edit: hopefully I have been clear about my thinking and causality, as I've playtested / helped design things before. If I'm not being clear, someone ask / troll / flame me.