Ranting about the Imperial meta

By Nostromoid, in Star Wars: Armada

I’ve been thinking about something for a while, something that bugs me. I’ve wanted to make a big deal about it, and see some kind of fresh change. I think that something is constraining the fleet-building decision process, and I think the game would be much improved by doing something about it.

Who Else Could I Possibly Be Talking About?
Demolisher. Rhymer. In virtually every single Imperial list, we one or both of these units. They’ve dominated--no, defined--the meta since Wave 1, making themselves the undeniable backbone of the Empire. Looking at shmitty’s Regionals data fully confirms this: These two units are the signature components of practically every Imperial player who attends these tournaments.
Rhymerballs and DeMSU won nearly 60% of all Regionals. Not 60% of Imperial winners, 60% of all winners. All of the other Imperial archetypes combined, including Imperial Swarm and miscellaneous non-archetype fleets, barely crack 10% of either wins or total tournament attendance. Not very inspiring. We can talk about Raider Swarm as a viable challenger to the supremacy of these lists, but the data just doesn’t validate it as a contender. In the right hands it might outperform expectations, but it’s just not a candidate to give the meta even a tremor, much less displace either of the two kings.
The reason they’re popular is pretty straightforward: they’re powerful and cheap. They cost very little to include in a fleet list. They get a lot of work done in a game. It’s extremely easy to synergize them with other units and upgrades to increase their value even more. And they do it all without exposing the player to too much risk. In short, they are an easy way to min-max a list for unanswered damage by doing things that the rules prohibit every other unit in the game from doing.
Why It Bothers Me
If a unit is so powerful that it is a virtual requirement in all fleets, it’s overpowered. That’s true, but that’s not what bothers me, actually. That’s an argument for other people who are more interested in the pricing of individual upgrades. I’m much more of a Johnny than a Spike, in MtG terms.
What I do hate is that my choices in Imperial fleet-building are: build around the two obviously superior options, or suck on purpose out of protest. Even Rebel players have to go up against these two guys in every Rebel/Imperial matchup, so Armada becomes the Demolisher/Rhymer show for everybody. It’s even worse in such a thematic game as SW:A. The fleet battles of the Star Wars universe are getting sidelined by two nobodies, a made-up bomber pilot and a cartoon cyborg. Listening to the latest IFF, I’m gratified to hear my sentiments shared.
Is There Hope?
Wave 3 will only increase the power of squadrons, and bombers in particular. I see Rhymer only becoming even better. Way better. Demolisher might hit a speedbump when flotillas first make their appearance, as a way to block Demo’s attack run and Scatter its big damage. But it simply won’t last. Off the top of my head, I would say just giving Demolisher a wingman to clear out the flotillas solves that problem. A Raider with Sensor Teams (wow, Sensor Teams!) will kill them off, and then we’re right back to DeMSU, only just one step more refined. That’s my off-the-cuff idea, and I’m an idiot, so I can only imagine how good someone else’s New DeMSU would look.
Then we get to Wave 4, and if any further indication was needed of how big a shadow these units cast over every conversation about Armada game balance, look no further than the threads debating whether the Inderdictor is going to have a place in the game based on how its G-8s will interact with an Engine Teched Demolisher.
The problem is just that there’s still nothing that can do Demolisher’s job better than Demolisher. Or even anywhere close to as good. And until there is, or until there’s even a choice about how to fill that role, it’s all people will pick.
What FFG Will Do
I’m not going to suggest a change to either Demo or Rhymer, because we know that’s not FFG’s way, but I don’t want to be stuck with them ruling the game until some mythical Second Edition Armada comes around to remove them. FFG must know that Demo and Rhymer have been hogging the spotlight for a long time, and seriously overperforming in terms of how much of a points investment they require and in terms of the difficulty of making them work effectively. What they seem to favor as a solution is to introduce new units and upgrades that help the opponent defeat such tactics. To me, that’s a deeply unsatisfying solution. It makes sense from a business standpoint: You don’t want to tell people not to buy Gladiator and Imperial Fighter Expansions by crippling those units, so instead you might as well encourage sales of newer stuff that counters them. But just adding autoinclude counters to the autoinclude game-winners patches over the problem without fixing it. It in fact calcifies the meta even further.
What I Want Instead
What the imaginative player in me wants is more archetypes to latch onto and build around. So here’s my suggested solution instead: cut in on Demo and Rhymer by introducing competition at the level of the Imperial fleet builder. Let’s have some ships that occupy the same strategic niche as those two, but do not synergize well with them. Let’s have some meaningful choice for the Imperial player. They must be powerful enough to entice at least some players away from the old standbys.
How about a new Imperial squadron, ship, or upgrade that buffs nearby squadrons when they attack ships at distance 1? At last, we can make bombing runs against the Rebels, rather than firing off artillery shots from the middle of a Rhymer ball.
How about a new Imperial ship with a title that gives a bonus for activating first in the round, or that gives a bonus for activating last in the round? If anything looks even remotely as good as a triple tap, then at last Imperial admirals can say, “No, this fleet (incredibly) would NOT be improved simply by adding Demolisher.”
Discuss
We know Demolisher and Rhymer deform the meta. But how badly do they deform it?
Will Wave 3 or 4 change the role of these two units?
When’s the last time you saw somebody win an Organized Play event with an Imperial list that had neither of these two dudes? Was it the Raider swarm, or something else?
Edited by pasewi

Shoutout to pt106 for kicking our asses here in NC using neither Demo nor Rhymer.

Edited by WuFame

It is a well-written rant.

But its still a rant.

It is a well-written rant.

But its still a rant.

If I could hazard a guess, this might be why he put the word rant in the title.

It is a well-written rant.

But its still a rant.

If I could hazard a guess, this might be why he put the word rant in the title.

ZING!

And pasewi, if you want me to slap you around with Insidious and non-Rhymer Bombers, I'd be happy to do so. ;)

I do get where you're coming from, though. Especially with Rhymer. Demo is starting to see some counters, and an Interdictor will add to that, so it might eventually go away. But there is no counter to Rhymer that isn't also a counter to regular bomber lists. There's nothing that mitigates Rhymer specifically. And when you build an Imp list with Bombers there is no incentive whatsoever to not take Rhymer. Have the points for one more Bomber, but not enough for Rhymer? Just drop a bomber and take Rhymer instead. That range increase is far more powerful over an additional black die.

Edited by reegsk
What FFG Will Do
I’m not going to suggest a change to either Demo or Rhymer, because we know that’s not FFG’s way, but I don’t want to be stuck with them ruling the game until some mythical Second Edition Armada comes around to remove them. FFG must know that Demo and Rhymer have been hogging the spotlight for a long time, and seriously overperforming in terms of how much of a points investment they require and in terms of the difficulty of making them work effectively. What they seem to favor as a solution is to introduce new units and upgrades that help the opponent defeat such tactics. To me, that’s a deeply unsatisfying solution. It makes sense from a business standpoint: You don’t want to tell people not to buy Gladiator and Imperial Fighter Expansions by crippling those units, so instead you might as well encourage sales of newer stuff that counters them. But just adding autoinclude counters to the autoinclude game-winners patches over the problem without fixing it. It in fact calcifies the meta even further.

This is a bit of a misconception. If you look at Imperial Assault, there were a couple of units that were dominating tournaments. FFG changed the abiltities on those cards through an FAQ. They later supplied updated cards through seasonal prize kits.

So, if FFG decides that Rhymer, Demo, or anything else is over represented, they will fix it.

What FFG Will Do
I’m not going to suggest a change to either Demo or Rhymer, because we know that’s not FFG’s way, but I don’t want to be stuck with them ruling the game until some mythical Second Edition Armada comes around to remove them. FFG must know that Demo and Rhymer have been hogging the spotlight for a long time, and seriously overperforming in terms of how much of a points investment they require and in terms of the difficulty of making them work effectively. What they seem to favor as a solution is to introduce new units and upgrades that help the opponent defeat such tactics. To me, that’s a deeply unsatisfying solution. It makes sense from a business standpoint: You don’t want to tell people not to buy Gladiator and Imperial Fighter Expansions by crippling those units, so instead you might as well encourage sales of newer stuff that counters them. But just adding autoinclude counters to the autoinclude game-winners patches over the problem without fixing it. It in fact calcifies the meta even further.

This is a bit of a misconception. If you look at Imperial Assault, there were a couple of units that were dominating tournaments. FFG changed the abiltities on those cards through an FAQ. They later supplied updated cards through seasonal prize kits.

So, if FFG decides that Rhymer, Demo, or anything else is over represented, they will fix it.

A quick fix to Rhymer? A ship upgrade that causes you to be Obstructed at Medium and Long Range. Put it in a tournament kit. Boom. Done.

I agree with the OP. The remarks are well written and accurate to my experience.

My fix for Rhymer: change "at" range one to "within" range one.

The obvious fix for Demolisher is to prevent it shooting after engine techs.

The obvious fix for Demolisher is to prevent it shooting after engine techs.

That could do it. The biggest problem with Demo is that the ET move allows it to set up for the triple tap from beyond Long Range. You don't even get to shoot at it once before it pops in and drops the strongest punch in the game on your most valuable ship. Then it scoots away at Speed 3 or goes for the double ram, if need be.

At least forcing that first attack to be before an ET maneuver would give you a slightly better chance. Not a perfect one, but slightly better. It would take a lot more careful maneuvering to get the Demo trick to work.

I can only imagine how good someone else’s New DeMSU would look.

I already fielded it and it doesn't have Demolisher ;)

I believe thyat the prevalence of Demo or Rhymer is a self-fulfilling prophecy: people think that they need to have a Demo or Rhymer in order to win, so they bring it. Some of them win and then it motivates more people to use them. I believe that at the current point in the game both Demo and Rhymer are a potential liability: your opponents know how to fly against them and are likely to bring specific counters. Meanwhile the use of either of these units forces you into a certain set of strategies and makes you more predictable.

P.S. I'm surprised you didn't mention Motti ;)

P.S. I'm surprised you didn't mention Motti ;)

Motti already has a counter - shoot him in the face! It only takes one additional shot to kill a Motti ship over a non-Motti ship. Now, I'm not saying that isn't huge. Your wounded ship limps in and unloads into a Motti ship that hasn't activated. You leave it alive with one hull, then it unloads into your wounded ship and kills it. A non-Motti ship would have died and your ship would have lived.

But the same could be said of Rieekan. Your ISD unloads point-blank into a CR90 and crushes it, then crashes into it, then gets shot, then gets crashed into. A non-Rieekan ship would have been dead (and deserved to be. . .what CR90 in its right mind flies in front of an ISD!).

What FFG Will Do
I’m not going to suggest a change to either Demo or Rhymer, because we know that’s not FFG’s way, but I don’t want to be stuck with them ruling the game until some mythical Second Edition Armada comes around to remove them. FFG must know that Demo and Rhymer have been hogging the spotlight for a long time, and seriously overperforming in terms of how much of a points investment they require and in terms of the difficulty of making them work effectively. What they seem to favor as a solution is to introduce new units and upgrades that help the opponent defeat such tactics. To me, that’s a deeply unsatisfying solution. It makes sense from a business standpoint: You don’t want to tell people not to buy Gladiator and Imperial Fighter Expansions by crippling those units, so instead you might as well encourage sales of newer stuff that counters them. But just adding autoinclude counters to the autoinclude game-winners patches over the problem without fixing it. It in fact calcifies the meta even further.

This is a bit of a misconception. If you look at Imperial Assault, there were a couple of units that were dominating tournaments. FFG changed the abiltities on those cards through an FAQ. They later supplied updated cards through seasonal prize kits.

So, if FFG decides that Rhymer, Demo, or anything else is over represented, they will fix it.

A quick fix to Rhymer? A ship upgrade that causes you to be Obstructed at Medium and Long Range. Put it in a tournament kit. Boom. Done.

If we're talking about fixes the interesting one (that might do the trick) would be to remove range 1 limitations from QLTs.

I would say you see Demo and Rhymer in almost every imperial list mainly because the Empire really doesn't have many ship options right now. Vic's are almost only good as carriers in which case you need a Rhymerball as your ships won't be able to chase down and kill anything that doesn't fly at you. You could try to do the Imperial Heavy Christmas trees with 2 upgraded ISD's but then that leaves you open to the current meta of many smaller ships and they just fly around your flanks and kill you. Basically for the most part the Empire has 3 ships to use, ISD, Glad, and Raider. If you take a Glad then Demo is pretty much an instant add. Rhymer and Demo are included in most imperial fleets because the fleet choices you have as the Empire pretty much forces you to go one of those two routs or even both. The Rebels have much more choices in terms of fleet builds currently.

As you mentioned Wave 3 will just make Rhymer even more powerful so get ready to see even more of him...That being said I think you will see even more rebel heavy fighter lists.

Another form of 'fix' is to offer hard counters. What can they do to bring in new elements that deter Rhymer and Demolisher? It's hard, because they're both uniques.

One that we already see potentially targeting Rhymer is Agent Kallus, though how hard of a counter that is... Kallus is also a unique, and which Rhymer-hunting ship are you going to put him on?

I believe thyat the prevalence of Demo or Rhymer is a self-fulfilling prophecy: people think that they need to have a Demo or Rhymer in order to win, so they bring it. Some of them win and then it motivates more people to use them. I believe that at the current point in the game both Demo and Rhymer are a potential liability: your opponents know how to fly against them and are likely to bring specific counters. Meanwhile the use of either of these units forces you into a certain set of strategies and makes you more predictable.

I think you're right about the hype-nature of metas - but that suggests that the Regionals winners are just the best of the herd animals rather than the wolves who counter the meta. If what you're saying is correct - that these are liabilities - then we shouldn't see them rising to the top. It's not like they're unknown quantities, given that they're both from Wave I.

I would say you see Demo and Rhymer in almost every imperial list mainly because the Empire really doesn't have many ship options right now. Vic's are almost only good as carriers in which case you need a Rhymerball as your ships won't be able to chase down and kill anything that doesn't fly at you. You could try to do the Imperial Heavy Christmas trees with 2 upgraded ISD's but then that leaves you open to the current meta of many smaller ships and they just fly around your flanks and kill you. Basically for the most part the Empire has 3 ships to use, ISD, Glad, and Raider. If you take a Glad then Demo is pretty much an instant add. Rhymer and Demo are included in most imperial fleets because the fleet choices you have as the Empire pretty much forces you to go one of those two routs or even both. The Rebels have much more choices in terms of fleet builds currently.

As you mentioned Wave 3 will just make Rhymer even more powerful so get ready to see even more of him...That being said I think you will see even more rebel heavy fighter lists.

That's an excellent point. The Imperials really don't have a lot of effective options. Raiders and Gladiators are great up-close ships, but they can't take a punch. The VSD is a carrier/backup gunship and nothing more. And with its speed, like you said, it needs that Rhymer range to really get stuff done. And the ISD is expensive, a very large target and easy to block.

I can only imagine how good someone else’s New DeMSU would look.

I believe thyat the prevalence of Demo or Rhymer is a self-fulfilling prophecy: people think that they need to have a Demo or Rhymer in order to win, so they bring it.

I think this is more accurate than almost anything in this thread.

Few things: Flotillas, Interdictor, Liberty.

Change is coming man, breath for a minute...paint your squadrons...sit on it for the time being. Change will come...and it'll be awesome.

I can only imagine how good someone else’s New DeMSU would look.

I believe thyat the prevalence of Demo or Rhymer is a self-fulfilling prophecy: people think that they need to have a Demo or Rhymer in order to win, so they bring it.

I think this is more accurate than almost anything in this thread.

I would disagree, here. I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

Demolisher is a different beast, though. People are starting to come up with Demo counters, and the average Demo build is 80-90 points AND tends to be the biggest/only heavy hitter in the list. So if you take out Demo, you net a nice amount of points and you've taken out the biggest threat. So losing that one ship unravels your opponent's entire strategy. If you somehow manage to assassinate Rhymer without killing the rest of the bombers, they just fly a little closer and still do their thing. You've also killed 16 points as opposed to 90.

Also...if you face a player who rolls a Rhymer ball and does that Imp slow roll "I'ma go zero and you come to me" bs...set your dials to zero, flip him the bird and go to the dealers room.

I honestly have zero tolerance for that camper bulls*it...

I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

But we don't really know how much of Rhymer success should be attributed to Rhymer himself and how much is the success of Imperial bomber lists in general. (I tend to feel that it's more of the latter).

As for the reasons to not bring Rhymer: to maximize AS output (bring two bombers instead) or to be able to divide your bomber force to attack two targets at once. Its not for every fleet, however I can see situations where this choice will be valid.

Edited by pt106

I guess I really only mean my statement in regards to Demo. I haven't felt much sting from Rhymer. As for Demo, I feel like I counter him pretty well already. I fought two Demo lists on Saturday in Marietta and lost to none of them. It's not that he's not good, it's just what pt106 said. If you know he's coming, there are things you can do to give you an edge.

Also...if you face a player who rolls a Rhymer ball and does that Imp slow roll "I'ma go zero and you come to me" bs...set your dials to zero, flip him the bird and go to the dealers room.

I honestly have zero tolerance for that camper bulls*it...

It's a legitimate strategy, just like rebels setting up perpendicular in their deployment zone to Abuse ackbar

Especially considering Vics weakness, they pretty much have to be slow rolled or else the player will lose

I can only imagine how good someone else’s New DeMSU would look.

I believe thyat the prevalence of Demo or Rhymer is a self-fulfilling prophecy: people think that they need to have a Demo or Rhymer in order to win, so they bring it.

I think this is more accurate than almost anything in this thread.

I don't think the issue is that people believe they need one of these two in their list to win. People have won significant tournaments with Imperials without either of the two upgrades (pt, for example), clearly demonstrating that Imperials are competitive even without either one.

The issue is that why wouldn't they take the best cards in the game? There is zero incentive to take any Imperial bomber before you take Rhymer. There is zero incentive to take any gunship before Demolisher.

Again, yes, people do both of these things... But in my experience they generally do so either because they're 1) newer to the game and don't know how to make these upgrades work for them, or 2) upgrade hipsters who don't want to play the same game over and over (this is why I play rebels, incidentally).

I can only imagine how good someone else’s New DeMSU would look.

I believe thyat the prevalence of Demo or Rhymer is a self-fulfilling prophecy: people think that they need to have a Demo or Rhymer in order to win, so they bring it.

I think this is more accurate than almost anything in this thread.

I would disagree, here. I could easily build a bomber list that could win without Rhymer. Rebel players do it all the time. But why wouldn't you take Rhymer? He makes your list more effective and doesn't alter your plan of attack in any way. And as I mentioned, there are no Rhymer-specific counters. The only things you can do to stop Rhymer are the same things you do to stop regular bomber lists, except they're less effective against Rhymer because his strike range is so much longer.

Demolisher is a different beast, though. People are starting to come up with Demo counters, and the average Demo build is 80-90 points AND tends to be the biggest/only heavy hitter in the list. So if you take out Demo, you net a nice amount of points and you've taken out the biggest threat. So losing that one ship unravels your opponent's entire strategy. If you somehow manage to assassinate Rhymer without killing the rest of the bombers, they just fly a little closer and still do their thing. You've also killed 16 points as opposed to 90.

There actually is a Rhymer-specific counter, it is just that it is terrible: Cluster Bombs.

Also...if you face a player who rolls a Rhymer ball and does that Imp slow roll "I'ma go zero and you come to me" bs...set your dials to zero, flip him the bird and go to the dealers room.

I honestly have zero tolerance for that camper bulls*it...

why so hostile?

It's a legitimate strategy, just like rebels setting up perpendicular in their deployment zone to Abuse ackbar

Especially considering Vics weakness, they pretty much have to be slow rolled or else the player will lose

I'm with Clon on this one. Sorry for playing my Vics to my advantage...?

Edit: You've highlighted one of the biggest weaknesses in the 3 Vic Rhymer build, namely being reach. You can keep me from a good victory really easily.

Edited by WuFame