If the BS in Deathwatch, and some of the other materials, is true, and Space Marine gear can/will strike down "lesser" wielders, maybe they don't have a choice. I would think they could have scout-equivalents, or the older, less capable (cause that's a thing for Astartes? ) pilot the ship. Certainly, it might seem like a waste of a Space Marine, but that's what they'll do, anyway.

Not only would this allow for a place of honor for those few chapter serfs that "almost" made it through selection, it would also mean that said pilots would not count against the roster of the battle company's codex mandated maximum.

Given how the Codex Astartes specifically established the maximum of 1,000 warriors to limit the strike capability of the Space Marines, wouldn't you say that this is working exactly as intended?

I almost forgot about this, so thank you for bringing it up! This prevents shenanigans like Space Marine Chapters stockpiling thousands of Mechanicus-provided tanks and aircraft, and when the Inquisitor comes looking they'd just be like "ah, but it's not a Marine who's driving them! totally legal!"

Not only would this allow for a place of honor for those few chapter serfs that "almost" made it through selection, it would also mean that said pilots would not count against the roster of the battle company's codex mandated maximum.

Given how the Codex Astartes specifically established the maximum of 1,000 warriors to limit the strike capability of the Space Marines, wouldn't you say that this is working exactly as intended?

I almost forgot about this, so thank you for bringing it up! This prevents shenanigans like Space Marine Chapters stockpiling thousands of Mechanicus-provided tanks and aircraft, and when the Inquisitor comes looking they'd just be like "ah, but it's not a Marine who's driving them! totally legal!"

I'm sure you know this Lynata, but there is plenty of real world historical examples of this. The Romans used auxiliary cavalry including the mighty Cataphracti (The forefathers of European knights) to bolster the Legion cavalry. (Even though auxilia units were supposedly 'inferior'!) The Samurai were forbidden by Bushido to assassinate their rivals but NOT from hiring assassins (The Ninja clans) to do it, etc..

The idea that "it's totally legal...technically!" is an excuse that's been used right up to the modern US government which maintains numerous "black hat" armies hidden in agencies that one can think of no reason for them to exist. (Why does the Bureau of Land Management need an army?). Again, not part of the defense budget but "Totally legal"!

Absolutely, but then again, that is the government. What you suggest would be more like the Texas National Guard suddenly starting to stockpile nukes without authorisation from Washington.

It's totally possible or even likely that some Marine Chapters would circumvent these restrictions simply because they do not care or have ulterior motives (see Black Templars or Astral Claws), but that would be a violation of the Codex Astartes and might risk triggering Imperial intervention, if evidence were to be uncovered.

The only legal "black hat" armies in 40k are those of the Inquisition.

I have another old codex (3E, I think) that has 2 SM crewing almost every AFV (3 for Land Raiders), and 1 for every APC/IFV. This would spread a battle company very thin. Consider a landing force of 2 gunships, 8 transports, 10 AFVs, and 6 APCs. That's at least 12 SM crewing Thunderhawks (assuming the transports only rate 1 SM each), and another 26 crewing the vehicles. That leaves 6-7 (in a full strength company) behind upstairs. Btw, according to 40k wiki, Thunderhawks rate a crew of 4, though they aren't specified as SM. If that refers only to gunships, then that would leave us 2-3 upstairs in the strike cruiser. If the APCs were all Razorbacks there'd still be room in the Thunderhawks for the remaining marines. A combination of Rhinos and Razorbacks would additionally permit the carrying of the company's Dreadnoughts, if any.

Of course, I'm not in favor of SM armored columns.

This would spread a battle company very thin.

According to WD #300, vehicle crews come from the Reserve Companies -- aside from fire support and a pool of casualty replacements, that's what they exist for, after all.

Gunners and navigators for thunderhawks would usually be servitors, with the co-pilot taking over in case of casualties. the weapons on rhinos and razorbacks are controlled remotely, with physical analogues in case of battle damage-hence, kits included with half a marine cast as part of the hatch/weapon turret. Armored columns seem to be rare in the fluff, only employed against dug in forces with some combination of shields, jammers, and high grade fortifications. As for the man power, most of the chapters do not count their techmarines, chaplains or apothecaries against the 1,000 man standard, and numerous bits of fluff have them attached and shuffled ad hoc alongside full strength companies.

This would spread a battle company very thin.

According to WD #300, vehicle crews come from the Reserve Companies -- aside from fire support and a pool of casualty replacements, that's what they exist for, after all.

That's a bit of a problem, too. If reserve companies crew the vehicles, how do they find enough SM to put 3 companies on a battle barge and 1 company on a strike cruiser in the first place? The numbers just don't work. We really only have numbers for the Ultramarines, and no doubt they have more than the average chapter, but each chapter is supposed to have at least 1 battle barge. You'd think each chapter also has at least 2-3 strike cruisers, let's say 3 just for argument's sake. That's enough ships to put a battle company on each ship. Spread the veterans and the scouts out and that leaves you 4 reserve companies. In the example I gave you can see that a battle company needs >1/4 of a reserve company just to crew its vehicles and that leaves no room for error. That means there's <3 reserve companies and a command cadre left at home to take care of business, and you'd think in a full-strength chapter (those are probably exceedingly rare) that battle barge would get another 2 of the reserve companies to bolster its capabilities. The whole numbers game is real flimsy, but that's also in line with the fluff. I guess I'm just moaning about the lack of organization in the Imperium. I also guess this is another indicator that the SM chapters are living on ancient privileges and don't really rate the equipment they receive.

According to WD #300, vehicle crews come from the Reserve Companies -- aside from fire support and a pool of casualty replacements, that's what they exist for, after all.

For Rhinos, yes. Razorbacks are armoury vehicles - there is a small pool of astartes dedicated to the Armoury as tank crews (in addition to the techmarines who build and maintain the things) - they crew Razorbacks and other tanks which aren't permenantly assigned to a company predators, whirlwinds, etc). The ultramarines have about fifty men - it's who Sergeant Chronus is sergeant of , despite not being a member of any company.

Why would you waste something like a Space marine, which was a relatively rare asset even during the great crusade, on vehicle crew or aircraft operators? Specifically as Aircraft pilots, the shear mass of the Astartes could skew the weight and balance of an aircraft designed for a human pilot! (But that's just the pilot in me talking )

Combat Aircraft are actually the one field which most justifies an astartes presence. A stormhawk, we are told, regularly pulls manoeuvres beyond the endurance of a 'normal' human pilot. I could easily see serfs and servitors being used to crew interface craft like the astartes landing craft.

So does a starship, for that matter - but an imperial starship has artificial gravity; whose far, far more important job isn't keeping your feet on the deck plating - it's the inertial protection. In one of the Imperial Navy stories (I think Shadow Point ?) you get to see what happens when a crippled navy cruiser loses artificial gravity over a large portion of the ship whilst accelerating. It ain't pretty.

That's a bit of a problem, too. If reserve companies crew the vehicles, how do they find enough SM to put 3 companies on a battle barge and 1 company on a strike cruiser in the first place? The numbers just don't work. We really only have numbers for the Ultramarines, and no doubt they have more than the average chapter, but each chapter is supposed to have at least 1 battle barge. You'd think each chapter also has at least 2-3 strike cruisers, let's say 3 just for argument's sake. That's enough ships to put a battle company on each ship. Spread the veterans and the scouts out and that leaves you 4 reserve companies. In the example I gave you can see that a battle company needs >1/4 of a reserve company just to crew its vehicles and that leaves no room for error. That means there's <3 reserve companies and a command cadre left at home to take care of business, and you'd think in a full-strength chapter (those are probably exceedingly rare) that battle barge would get another 2 of the reserve companies to bolster its capabilities. The whole numbers game is real flimsy, but that's also in line with the fluff. I guess I'm just moaning about the lack of organization in the Imperium. I also guess this is another indicator that the SM chapters are living on ancient privileges and don't really rate the equipment they receive.

Because those ships are almost never full.

Even sending out a full battle company plus attached elements is a big deal for a chapter.

Normally a major undertaking would be a strike cruiser with a demi-company and a few attachments aboard.

Equally, if a battle barge sets out with a couple of companies aboard, you're looking at sending along 2-3 strike cruisers at least as fleet assets - not with marines aboard, but as warships to protect probably the single most valuable asset the chapter owns outside the fortress' gene-seed vault, just the same as a Navy Battleship would never slip moorings without a frigate and cruiser screen.

In BFG, at least, you see battle barges as part of an Imperial task force, with accompanying cruiser, frigates, etc., but yes, I can see the better part of any chapter going along with the barge. And with 50 or so marines attached to the armory without company designation that also plays into the idea I've had all along that no chapter pays attention to the 1000+commanders limit. They shuffle numbers and papers around if they get over 1000 and consider themselves fortunate, but they don't follow regulations (a.k.a. Imperial Law) on this matter.

Well, the Space Marine ships, at least, I do think really are heavily automated. I know in Ultramarines, at least, their ship seems pretty empty, once they are back aboard it, and when stuff hits the fan, there don't seem to be a bunch of reserve Marines to help them fight the Chaos leader. Space Marines will always have this weird illusion of rarity; on the one hand, "there will only be 1,000 Astartes of any Chapter", and you can have whole sectors of space with reportedly no, or little (Calixis, in the beginning) Space Marine activity, and this makes sense, with the amount of space that many Astartes must cover, but then you play a SM army, and wonder how the Chapter functions, when this much of it (not a lot, but more than any action you ever SEE seems to put in one place, and you might even have their Chapter Master!), but yet they need to operate their own stuff, using up numbers, and certain figures allude to there being more Space Marine Chapters, then Space Marines in your "typical" Chapter!, and then you get Black Templars, Space Wolves, or Ultramarines, no matter how much they cradle the Codex Astartes, while they sleep, with HUGE quantities of members. Maybe just further flaw in letting so many different people write under their umbrella, but with little, to no, requirement to line things up, or even know the source material.

Well, the Space Marine ships, at least, I do think really are heavily automated. I know in Ultramarines, at least, their ship seems pretty empty, once they are back aboard it, and when stuff hits the fan, there don't seem to be a bunch of reserve Marines to help them fight the Chaos leader.

That there are this many Astartes does not mean there are this many crew . They don't have to do everything - there are always Chapter serfs… and, of course, servitors. Techmarines can control servitor crew, much like it's done on Mechanicus ships.