Many standard rebel build lists have an up hill struggle against U-boats because of low agility high hit-points and a lack of arc dodging make them an easy shot for U-boats. If you build to take on specifically U-boats you will have an uphill battle against palp aces or crack swarm. Leads me to three variations of the same list. wanted to get some thoughts and opinions on them.

A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19) Adaptability (Increase) (0) Chardaan Refit (-2) Autothrusters (2) A-Wing Test Pilot (0) Crack Shot (1)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) · R3-A2 (2) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19) Adaptability (Increase) (0) Chardaan Refit (-2) Autothrusters (2) A-Wing Test Pilot (0) Push the Limit (3)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Z-95 Headhunter: Blount (17) Assault Missile (5) Guidance Chips (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20) Twin Laser Turret (6) BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Overwhelming firepower at PS 4 and either a guaranteed assault missile for Swarms, or a crack shot and stress droid for aces. But I think this gives the tools for the meta while still being able to handle jumpmasters well.

Why would you put BTL on TLT y-wings? Yes Z's it gives you a chance of three attacks and multiple amounts of damage, but you lose the ability to hit aces when they fly out of arc, which any good pilot would do. Two TLT Y-wings should be close to being able to drop an ace each turn, or that's at least true on a scum Hwk with Dengar. Poor Inquisitor doesn't stand a chance.

Why not blend ideas? Run Blount, Green Squad, and 2x Grey squads?

A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Autothrusters (2)

A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Crack Shot (1)

Z-95 Headhunter: · Lieutenant Blount (17)

Assault Missiles (5)

Guidance Chips (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

R2 Astromech (1)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

R2 Astromech (1)

All 3 gonna be eaten alive by aces.

With swarm...well its 50/50 cause its gonna turn into crazy joust: you got firepower - he got agility and numbers.

Well and vs u boats...im not sure. Good u boats player wont joust it, but try to use his superior dial to arc dodge or get into r1 to nullify the TLT (doable) and then use turrets to his advantage. To be honest i think all those list woould actually benefit from removing titles from ys.

p.s. red rid of this white highlight. Really spoiler protection in squad list? You know its mess to imput something when i have to click to highlight that?

All 3 gonna be eaten alive by aces.

With swarm...well its 50/50 cause its gonna turn into crazy joust: you got firepower - he got agility and numbers.

Well and vs u boats...im not sure. Good u boats player wont joust it, but try to use his superior dial to arc dodge or get into r1 to nullify the TLT (doable) and then use turrets to his advantage. To be honest i think all those list woould actually benefit from removing titles from ys.

p.s. red rid of this white highlight. Really spoiler protection in squad list? You know its mess to imput something when i have to click to highlight that?

Actually it was highlighted cause I copied it from the X-wing squadron builder and didn't feel the need to actually edit it out.

As to your other point, The massive firepower increase with the title allows me to drop a jump before it fires or a palpatine before it fires. This is the main reason I wanted 3 PS 4 TLT Title shots. I think the best of the three honestly is the stress bot and crack A wing. Stress bot is a hard counter to any ace and the large range 3 arcs make it difficult to keep out of arc of all of them. It really depends on how flighty or aggressive the Soontir or whisper is. If they're aggressive, i can punish them with firepower. if they keep defensive and running, they can eventually wear it down and start taking shots of opportunity. The problem with any Y wing list is tie Swarm because once they get into range 1, it is hard to get away. but with the blount assault, doing 2 damage to a Tie is a lot easier than 3. Y wings have a great dial it's just not fast take it slow and cover arcs or bring every gun to bear at the same time.

Stressbot true has its place AFTER killing Yorr (i dont leave house with aces with OGP anymore). Sure after you do kill palpi aces gonna be more vunerable...if you manage to catch them with those Ys. And turretless Ys vs aces? Well thats gonna be hard.

As for the JM5ks. You want them to joust you. Good player NEVER gonna joust vs that firepower. Essencially that is te best list in "you have to joust" tournament due to firepower. But again: he got epic dial you dont. He got turret you dont. He just gonna flank you , split the ships, bait you with one, whatever, but noone in the right mind gonna joust that matchup. Even not shooting those torps, uboats still win IMHO if flied right.

Because of my higher PS jumpmasters will have no choice but to joust me. set up asteroids to block the turn in and I can keep them on course for head to head. Also if it stops jump masters from jousting that's fine, they are horrible at doing anything else so it is a win win.

Another thought...

A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19)

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A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Crack Shot (1)

Z-95 Headhunter: · Lieutenant Blount (17)

Crack Shot (1)

Assault Missiles (5)

Guidance Chips (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20)

Dorsal Turret (3)

R2 Astromech (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20)

Dorsal Turret (3)

R2 Astromech (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

With 3 TLT Y's with BTL, it would take all three firing a concentrated attack to get rid of 1 U-boat, and that's assuming you can consistently roll two hits with the primary weapon. I spend more time evading two dice attacks with two evades than I ever should. On average though, if you could score two hits, the U-boat has two evade, and will likely roll one evade. If range three, with primary, you penalty won't trickle any damage through. At best, you're busting 12 points through onto a U-boat assuming all possible shots score and ask evade dice fail. I'd say, as a safe average, you've got mine points of damage, which takes one U-boat off the table. In turn, they only need two U-boats to take at of the table. So, you exhaust 75% of your to get one ship removed and they exhaust 66% to extinguish one. After you're down one Y, it will be hard for you to box any more U-boats in a single turn, but they still have the fire power to box a Y on round two of shooting.

And again, that's assuming you go against someone who will joust you.

With R3-A2, the target has to be within your arc. No ace player is going to be within arc. With PTL, boosts, barrel rolls, free actions when they get stress, etc..., short of performing a bump and catching an ace in a bad turn, you're not going to have an ace in arc come the combat phase. Likewise, those three Y's have about a 35% chance of removing a palpmobile in one turn, and that's assuming you can get to it before aces mess up your day.

And jumpmasters have enough green manuever not to worry with stress bot.

In short, I don't believe you'll ever have aces in arc without a more unpredictable dial, thus the R2, and even then, is going to be hard. Your max possible is 12 damage. Aces running autothrusters can not quiet about the range 3 shots, and if an ace would be at range 2, they will end up at range 1, where you only have 9 max.

TLT no title and R2 give you unpredictable movement to avoid arcs yourself and 6 probable damage most turns.

The best defense is not being able to be shot at.

I'm exclusively a scum player, so I could be severely wrong. I refuse to run Y's because is lack of agility. I believe a Hawk is the more survivable of the turret ships.

Give your list a try, and prove theorywing wrong.

On the one I provided above, give Blount crack shot so that one extra point of damage gets pushed through. Dorsal BTL Y's with EU, operates like an ace, getting to range 1, and or out of arc. Range 1, you're tossing 18 red dice, and 12 at range 2. Switching from TLTs to dorsal turrets gives you the same potential output at range 2, more at Range 1, and if we run the stats, probably same for range 3.

Another thought...

A-Wing: Green Squadron Pilot (19)

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Chardaan Refit (-2)

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A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Crack Shot (1)

Z-95 Headhunter: · Lieutenant Blount (17)

Crack Shot (1)

Assault Missiles (5)

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Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20)

Dorsal Turret (3)

R2 Astromech (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Y-Wing: Grey Squadron Pilot (20)

Dorsal Turret (3)

R2 Astromech (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

With 3 TLT Y's with BTL, it would take all three firing a concentrated attack to get rid of 1 U-boat, and that's assuming you can consistently roll two hits with the primary weapon. I spend more time evading two dice attacks with two evades than I ever should. On average though, if you could score two hits, the U-boat has two evade, and will likely roll one evade. If range three, with primary, you penalty won't trickle any damage through. At best, you're busting 12 points through onto a U-boat assuming all possible shots score and ask evade dice fail. I'd say, as a safe average, you've got mine points of damage, which takes one U-boat off the table. In turn, they only need two U-boats to take at of the table. So, you exhaust 75% of your to get one ship removed and they exhaust 66% to extinguish one. After you're down one Y, it will be hard for you to box any more U-boats in a single turn, but they still have the fire power to box a Y on round two of shooting.

And again, that's assuming you go against someone who will joust you.

With R3-A2, the target has to be within your arc. No ace player is going to be within arc. With PTL, boosts, barrel rolls, free actions when they get stress, etc..., short of performing a bump and catching an ace in a bad turn, you're not going to have an ace in arc come the combat phase. Likewise, those three Y's have about a 35% chance of removing a palpmobile in one turn, and that's assuming you can get to it before aces mess up your day.

And jumpmasters have enough green manuever not to worry with stress bot.

In short, I don't believe you'll ever have aces in arc without a more unpredictable dial, thus the R2, and even then, is going to be hard. Your max possible is 12 damage. Aces running autothrusters can not quiet about the range 3 shots, and if an ace would be at range 2, they will end up at range 1, where you only have 9 max.

TLT no title and R2 give you unpredictable movement to avoid arcs yourself and 6 probable damage most turns.

The best defense is not being able to be shot at.

I'm exclusively a scum player, so I could be severely wrong. I refuse to run Y's because is lack of agility. I believe a Hawk is the more survivable of the turret ships.

Give your list a try, and prove theorywing wrong.

On the one I provided above, give Blount crack shot so that one extra point of damage gets pushed through. Dorsal BTL Y's with EU, operates like an ace, getting to range 1, and or out of arc. Range 1, you're tossing 18 red dice, and 12 at range 2. Switching from TLTs to dorsal turrets gives you the same potential output at range 2, more at Range 1, and if we run the stats, probably same for range 3.

You'll never get aces in arc? There is a reason everyone jumped to Yorr (though since stress bot has become less prevalent, you don't see him as much) A gold TLT title stress bot can hit a soontir or whisper. You don't expect any damage but you can pop 2 stress on them to kill them the next turn, and they have to spend so much time keeping out of arc that again, your list lives.

Even if you never catch them in arc, then their presence has been felt. Sometimes a deterrent is just as good as a direct answer. If they are so preoccupied with avoiding arc then you will also likely limit shots against you. I am personably a proponent of having both a StressHog and TLT-only in the list given the end-goal of the list. With that said I would have to support the first list. How determined are you keep the third Y? I think it would be beneficial to look at another A-Wing, maybe even a kitted out Jake?

Just an honest question to thstggrwng...

How often have you been able to keep Sontir or Whisper in Arc with any BTL Y-Wing?

Just an honest question to thstggrwng...

How often have you been able to keep Sontir or Whisper in Arc with any BTL Y-Wing?

I second this question. Sure, Y-wings are tough, but the dial absolutely puts me in a bind! I have an emense problem dealing with any arc dodger (A-wing, Interceptor, Phantom, even TIEs, etc) and I want to pull my hair out.....yes, maybe Jumps can be caught, I don't know, but not any ship with a good dial, barrel-rolls, etc...not on my watch sadly, forgetaboutit.

Just an honest question to thstggrwng...

How often have you been able to keep Sontir or Whisper in Arc with any BTL Y-Wing?

I second this question. Sure, Y-wings are tough, but the dial absolutely puts me in a bind! I have an emense problem dealing with any arc dodger (A-wing, Interceptor, Phantom, even TIEs, etc) and I want to pull my hair out.....yes, maybe Jumps can be caught, I don't know, but not any ship with a good dial, barrel-rolls, etc...not on my watch sadly, forgetaboutit.

Went up against 2 whispers and a soontir at Worlds and my PS 2 Stress bot caught all of them at least once in a game. There is a Reason Paul Heaver had it in his list. It specifically was an imperial ace counter. You don't expect damage but you can catch them in arc pretty reliably on the first pass. otherwise they are running from you and you can deal with the rest of the squad easily now. It's the reason everyone running palp aces went to Yorr for a while so Soontir didn't have to worry about stress bot.

At range 3 the arc covers a pretty broad range. As an Aces player I can you that no matter how much we think we can get out of arc, the are usually at least one time per game that we are forced to' turtle up' because of a bad read of our opponent. Yes the X-wing dial is terrible, but it has what it needs to cast a wide net. As I said before, the StressHog can effectively remove a signfigant number of options from an Ace allowing you to predict them more easily.

A World Champion player being successful with a build, does not, a meta build make. Heaver might just as well be able to bust up a Crack swarm with a build I call the Trench Runners, consisting of Luke, Wedge and Biggs. It doesn't mean that Mr. Heaver is going to suggest we use it in our local tournament.

None of this however, answers the question I asked you. Does it?

A little cheakiness never hurts a good discussion. So long as you know that's what I'm doing.