Played first mission with Davith and Gideon last night, and I have to say that Davith is so fun to play. He zooms around all over the place with his force speed. I have a lightsaber with an attachment that gives it reach and it's fantastic. Quite often he is attaching twice in a turn.

Just to double check, can you force speed + strain move + strain move all in one turn?

Yip, because Force Speed is not a strain/move, so it doesn't count against the limit of two times. Force speed you can only use once, but in total you get to move 4 spaces for 3 strain, still have the option to attack twice, and pottentionall recover a strain each attack, putting you at a net loss of only one strain... With his fell swoop, which gives another 2 movement points, you could move six spaces, attack 3 times, and possibly recover all three strain again (if you roll enough surges), in one activation!

That is, if I'm not missing anything?

Yip, because Force Speed is not a strain/move, so it doesn't count against the limit of two times. Force speed you can only use once, but in total you get to move 4 spaces for 3 strain, still have the option to attack twice, and pottentionall recover a strain each attack, putting you at a net loss of only one strain... With his fell swoop, which gives another 2 movement points, you could move six spaces, attack 3 times, and possibly recover all three strain again (if you roll enough surges), in one activation!

That is, if I'm not missing anything?

Not really something you missed, but it's also worth noting that Force Speed and Fell Swoop are both 'move two spaces' and not 'gain two movement points'. Difficult terrain? Imperial figures blocking the way? No problem!

Davith can move 2 spaces with Force Speed (1 strain) and take 2 strain for 2 movement points. How many spaces those two movement points can cover is another thing.

Also note that you can't save spaces when you trigger Force Speed. You have to move those 2 spaces immediately when suffering the strain for it.

It's weird that I caught that Fel Swoop was "move 2 spaces" but totally missed force speed uses the same wording, Cut and Run just got way better.

On 6/13/2016 at 7:51 PM, ManateeX said:

Not really something you missed, but it's also worth noting that Force Speed and Fell Swoop are both 'move two spaces' and not 'gain two movement points'. Difficult terrain? Imperial figures blocking the way? No problem!

On 6/13/2016 at 8:08 PM, a1bert said:

Also note that you can't save spaces when you trigger Force Speed. You have to move those 2 spaces immediately when suffering the strain for it

But what if neither of the two spaces around Davith is free?
Can he gain movement points with a move action and keep moving until he reaches an empty space? Or the fact that he cannot finish his move via Force Speed (because all the spaces are blocked) prevents him from using Force Speed?
I don't know if the question is understandable ... sorry for my English and thanks for the help.

7 hours ago, Yuna1979 said:

But what if neither of the two spaces around Davith is free?

Force Speed is a during-your-activation ability, the same as spending movement points. As long as Davith has enough movement points to end movement legally, Force Speed can take him to a space that has another figure. E.g. suffer strain for movement point, use Force Speed, then spend the movement point to move to a valid space to end movement.

Edit: (Google is your friend) Also see:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1600286/using-abilities-while-moving-overlapping-other-fig

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1793891/move-x-spaces-end-your-movement

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/291118-davith-elsos-force-seed/

So Tress can take strain to gain movement points to work together with Leg Hydraulics? I've been playing her incorrectly then.

25 minutes ago, player678037 said:

So Tress can take strain to gain movement points to work together with Leg Hydraulics? I've been playing her incorrectly then.

Leg Hydraulics is not a during-your-activation ability. Tress cannot suffer strain for movement points before Leg Hydraulics, because Leg Hydraulics triggers at the start of her activation , and must be thus resolved right then or skipped.

And she cannot suffer strain during Leg Hydraulics, because she's already resolving an ability and thus is not at the during-your-activation timing (before or after actions during the activation). The game doesn't progress into during-her-activation until she has skipped or resolved Leg Hydraulics and all abilities triggering from it.

Hmm, I'd say at the "start of your activation" does imply it is her activation. Using the ability to convert 1 strain into 1 movement point is an ability and is being used during her activation before an action, which is allowed if you can perform abilities in conjunction.

I've always thought when using an ability you had to fully resolve one at a time, but if Davith can combine Force Speed and strain movement, I don't see a difference for Tress and Leg Hydraulics.

29 minutes ago, player678037 said:

Hmm, I'd say at the "start of your activation" does imply it is her activation.

At the start of her activation is during her activation, but it's a trigger. If she would suffer strain for movement point, it would no longer be the start of her activation, right?

The same applies to the end of the activation trigger, and rulings exist. There are a lot of start-of-activation abilities, there are quite a few at-the-end-of-activation abilities too.

You do need to resolve abilities one at a time, but you only need to end movement to perform an action or an attack. You don't need to end movement to perform other abilities. The movement rules require that to enter a space with another figure you need to be able to end movement legally. The movement rules do not require that you do the whole movement at once - and remember that movement happens one space at a time (you pay movement point cost for each space moved when you move each space), because the movement can be interrupted by mission events or abilities.

Start of Group activation
Start of figure activation
during activation phase
End of figure activation
... (other figure activations of the group)
End of Group activation

I no, I get that. I've been playing Tress that Leg Hydraulics has to happen first.

But, from what you are saying about Force Speed, the move X spaces ability can be combined with movement points. If that's the case, so can Leg Hydraulics. As for having those movement points to spend, an ability can be used at any point during an activation so long as it's not during an action. Thus, gaining a movement point with strain is allowed while Leg Hydraulics is taking place.

19 minutes ago, player678037 said:

an ability can be used at any point during an activation so long as it's not during an action. Thus, gaining a movement point with strain is allowed while Leg Hydraulics is taking place.

No.

FAQ:

Quote

Abilities that can be used “during your activation” are not interrupting abilities unless otherwise specified.

Like I said, you cannot be resolving one ability and then at-will perform a during-your-activation ability. You can't even perform a during-your-activation ability within another during-your-activation ability.

Then why are you saying you can interrupt a move X spaces with a movement point. If you have to complete an ability, you cannot end on top of another figure before you use your movement.

Just now, player678037 said:

Then why are you saying you can interrupt a move X spaces with a movement point. If you have to complete an ability, you cannot end on top of another figure before you use your movement.

No, I'm not saying that. You must end resolving Force Speed before starting to spend movement points. You can only enter a space with another figure if you can end movement legally, and you can thus perform Force Speed to enter a space with another figure if you have movement points to end movement legally. With enough movement points, you can thus perform Force Speed taking the figure to a space with another figure, then without ending movement while sharing a space with another figure spend movement points to get to a valid space to end movement, then choose to end movement.

Note that "ending movement" is separate from ending Force Speed or spending movement points to move each space. See the Movement chapter. You can choose to end movement as many times as you move spaces as long as the space is a valid space to end movement in, and each time start movement again.

Other example is for Diala to perform a Move action, spend 2 movement points to enter a space with a hostile figure, then - while moving (i.e. without ending movement) - suffer 2 strain to Force Throw a hostile figure (it isn't an action or attack), then spend 1 movement point to move to an empty space, then end movement.

2 minutes ago, a1bert said:

No, I'm not saying that. You must end resolving Force Speed before starting to spend movement points. You can only enter a space with another figure if you can end movement legally, and you can thus perform Force Speed to enter a space with another figure if you have movement points to end movement legally. With enough movement points, you can thus perform Force Speed taking the figure to a space with another figure, then without ending movement while sharing a space with another figure spend movement points to get to a valid space to end movement, then choose to end movement.

Note that "ending movement" is separate from ending Force Speed or spending movement points to move each space. See the Movement chapter. You can choose to end movement as many times as you move spaces as long as the space is a valid space to end movement in, and each time start movement again.

Other example is for Diala to perform a Move action, spend 2 movement points to enter a space with a hostile figure, then - while moving (i.e. without ending movement) - suffer 2 strain to Force Throw a hostile figure (it isn't an action or attack), then spend 1 movement point to move to an empty space, then end movement.

If you resolve Force Speed, you have ended movement, though yes, you can move again during your activation. You cannot end your movement on another figure. Thus, if you are to keep going, you have interrupted the move x spaces to do so.

I would say the same in your example of Diaba using Force Throw in the middle of movement. If you use Force Throw without ending movement, you have interrupted it. There is no doubt of that. That is the definition of an interruption.

16 minutes ago, player678037 said:

If you resolve Force Speed, you have ended movement

Ending movement is not automatic. Force Speed is a during-your-activation ability, so performing it doesn't force you to end movement like movement as part of an action would require you to do (to end resolving the action and continue the activation - and you can't spend movement points from the pool inside an action).

Edit: The whole "performing an attack requires to end movement" was added to the FAQ for Heroic (of Jedi Luke) to not be possible while moving (melee attacks while occupying a space with another figure could've caused a lot of issues). This shows that other non-action abilities are still possible while moving, i.e. without ending movement.

Also see the below for more information (and the IA team and another tech editor agreed, and ended up preventing Heroic):

The rules as written require that a figure ends movement to perform an action. The same is not required for abilities that are not actions. This has been ruled previously for Saska's Battle Technician , and would apply by extension to abilities like Force Throw , Improper Procedure , and Force Speed .

16 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Edit: The whole "performing an attack requires to end movement" was added to the FAQ for Heroic (of Jedi Luke) to not be possible while moving (melee attacks while occupying a space with another figure could've caused a lot of issues). This shows that other non-action abilities are still possible while moving, i.e. without ending movement.

Also see the below for more information (and the IA team and another tech editor agreed, and ended up preventing Heroic):

The rules as written require that a figure ends movement to perform an action. The same is not required for abilities that are not actions. This has been ruled previously for Saska's Battle Technician , and would apply by extension to abilities like Force Throw , Improper Procedure , and Force Speed .

First off, just because a specific scenario is spelled out as not being valid by FFG, it definitely does not mean that all others are valid. I count point out many cases across all their games of this I think. So specifically saying that Heroic being added to the FAQ does not prove a point. It just proves that you have to end movement to perform an attack.

So a few posts above, you pointed out that the FAQ says "Abilities that can be used “during your activation” are not interrupting abilities unless otherwise specified." If I'm hearing you correctly, you are Now saying that abilities that aren't actions can interrupt and be done in the middle of movement. What? You are talking in circles. Which way are you trying to say is right? It can't be both ways.

9 hours ago, player678037 said:

If I'm hearing you correctly, you are Now saying that abilities that aren't actions can interrupt and be done in the middle of movement. What? You are talking in circles.

No, you're not hearing me correctly. You don't still seem to get what "ending movement" is, which is making me trying to explain it again and again.

Let's try one more time: You can do things "while moving", i.e. "without ending movement", because moving itself is not an ability. Spending enough movement points to move the figure one space is an ability. Moving spaces is an ability. When these are during-your-activation abilities, you can string these together. To move through a space where it isn't valid to end movement, you have to be able to end movement legally to enter that space. You're still moving one space at a time, spending movement points as you go along. You must end movement before performing an action or performing an attack. You still do not need to end movement to perform other during-your-activation abilities, for example you can continue spending movement points for moving your figure (or for mission rules) so that you end up in a space where you can end movement. You're not interrupting anything.

This is how it works, confirmed by the IA team at FFG.

9 hours ago, a1bert said:

No, you're not hearing me correctly. You don't still seem to get what "ending movement" is, which is making me trying to explain it again and again.

Let's try one more time: You can do things "while moving", i.e. "without ending movement", because moving itself is not an ability. Spending enough movement points to move the figure one space is an ability. Moving spaces is an ability. When these are during-your-activation abilities, you can string these together. To move through a space where it isn't valid to end movement, you have to be able to end movement legally to enter that space. You're still moving one space at a time, spending movement points as you go along. You must end movement before performing an action or performing an attack. You still do not need to end movement to perform other during-your-activation abilities, for example you can continue spending movement points for moving your figure (or for mission rules) so that you end up in a space where you can end movement. You're not interrupting anything.

This is how it works, confirmed by the IA team at FFG.

Ok, I'll try this one more time too. Go back to where you quoted the FAQ to argue against using strain during Leg Hydraulics because " Abilities that can be used “during your activation” are not interrupting abilities unless otherwise specified." Hmm, how did we get on this tangent... (While we are here though, could you point me towards the confirmation by the IA team at FFG? Is it in the rules, FAQ, or a quote from a conversation? I've searched, but I'm missing it.)

So, we are both saying that you can use abilities. Why are you saying just Tress can't? Leg Hydraulics occurs during Tress's activation. You can take a strain to gain a movement point during movement while it is your activation. This all started with the revelation to me that "move x spaces" can be combined with movement points. I'm personally not convinced of that one, though I saw that Clipper agreed with that tentatively (quote below). So, if you can combine them, it applies to Tress's Leg Hydraulics as well.

Clipper
" It has been ruled that you can perform non-action abilities while moving. This means you don't actually have to stop moving to gain the movement point by suffering strain. That's why you can suffer strain to gain a movement point while sharing a space with another figure.

The reason why I'm not sure is whether you are allowed to transition from moving X spaces to spending movement points without ending movement. I can't recall any rulings that state whether this works or not and the rulebook doesn't really indicate what happens either. I am almost certain it would be ruled to be one instance of movement, though.

So perhaps this will need some FFG insight to fully answer, but I would allow it."

3 hours ago, player678037 said:

Ok, I'll try this one more time too. Go back to where you quoted the FAQ to argue against using strain during Leg Hydraulics because " Abilities that can be used “during your activation” are not interrupting abilities unless otherwise specified." Hmm, how did we get on this tangent...

Because at the start of activation is a different timing instance than during your activation. You trigger all start of activation abilities, then resolve them in the order of your choice. You cannot interrupt the start of activation abilities with during your activation abilities to gain and spend movement points.

You can always choose to ask FFG and get Tony to answer you.

Questioning @a1bert about IA rules granularity? That's a paddlin'.

On 12/27/2020 at 5:10 PM, KalEl814 said:

Questioning @a1bert about IA rules granularity? That's a paddlin'.

Hey, I respect Pasi's knowledge of the game and often use his words of wisdom. Is he all knowing though, no? I've gotten a couple alternate rulings from FFG over the years.

For anyone holding their breath: Ruling from Todd: Move X Spaces must end in a space valid for ending movement, so Force Speed must reach an unoccupied space.

The opposite is still possible, you can activate Force Speed while sharing a space with another figure, provided you reached that space by fulfilling moving-through-figures requirements without depending on Force Speed.