Looking for an appropriate punishment for my Players characters for their botched investigation. Something that will appropriately slap their wrists yet no so bad that they would need to seppuku or be cast out (for the sake of keeping the party together).

Let me explain;

The players are Yoriki to a magistrate (which I am very loosely defining as they are essentially "cops" working for a "chief".) They were investigating the dead body of a Phoenix Patron Merchant found in a river by local fishermen. Investigation uncovers that a local Crane Merchant/crime boss hired a ronin to kill the Pheonix and make it look like the Pheonix's Unicorn rival did it. The problem for the PC's is that they couldn't find any damning evidence or testimony of the crime: they know he did it but can't PROVE it. Desperate, and dealing with the fact that the Crane was fabricating evidence and witnesses, the scorpion used her own connection to fabricate a witness and sent a ninja to weaken the Cranes yojimbo, anticipating a duel. However, since the rest of the group was not in on this plan they got a writ of appearance and took the crane and his yojimbo to their office as a "guest". The Lion posted 4 guards to secure the area. The Crane PC, acting in the best interest of his clan, found out about the witness for the crime lord and passed the info along. During the night while the PCs are out conducting a failed sting operation to catch the ronin, the scorpions false witness is found dead in her home and the ninja fails in his attempt to poison the yojimbo, taking 2 lion guards with him. The Governor demands answers...

Unfortuantely, after an intense court scene the players where unable to convince the court of any wrongdoing by the Crane Crime lord strong enough to warrent the case being settles by a duel (do in no small part to the Crane PC acting as the defacto defense attourney for the Crime lord, a feat he was able to do by passing off as "just being honest and forthright" about the evidence they had.)

Here is the current state of the players and what they are to be reprimanded for;

Crane: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Made a speach to take full responsibilty for the failure of the investigation. Despite doing so with proper decorum, the Magistrate is not happy that he sandbagged the trial.

Scorpion bushi: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Accused of improperly handing the case in a deliberate attempt to make the Crane look bad. Accused of fabricating witnesses (know one knows if its true since the fake witness is dead and never testified)

Crab: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Shown to be a violent, uncultured brute. Accused of being part of the scorpions "pincer alliance" attempt to defame the Crane.

Ronin: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". The magistrate is disappointed that he chose to remain "humbly silent" ad is proper for a ronin, yet begs the question of why he is a yoriki if he contributes nothing to the investiagtion. (also, none the the player characters know the the ronin was actually forced by the Crime lord early on to kill the only real witness to the case

Lion: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer".

Unicorn: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Accused of diverting the investigation away from the "obviously" guilty Unicorn suspect.

(Lion and Unicorn players were not present for final court session. Have been conducting themselves honorably so far. The Lion knows that his clan was part of a massive weapons trade agrement going on between the Lion, Crane, and Phoenix merchants, damning evidence for the Crime Boss' motivation, but would not share the info so no one would ask why the Lion are suddenly amassing a large stockpile of weapons

It should also be known that the commander of the Lion forces in the region has essential taken over the magistrates office in the region to "help prevent further mistakes".

Well, the case actually looks quite simple. I guess the magistrate should just sweep in, seize the killer ronin and torture him until confession happens. With that done, he can publicly reprimand his subordinates (the party) for making such a big mess out of such a simple case, condemning the Crane in particular for taking responsibility for something that was obviously a "group effort". Let the Infamy rain at this point, everyone should get at least 3-5 points.

Then he would send them to investigate the disappearance of a Budoka (or an Eta if you want a more meaningful punishment) on the Kaiu Wall. This should teach the party a very valuable life lesson.

Interesting note about the Ronin: Rather than admit to the court that they failed to capture the Ronin who is still at large, and partially to cover up the Scorpion's crimes, the group convinced the court that the ninja that tried to poison the yojimbo was actually the ronin. The Crime Lord had no problem with this narrative as now he could honestly say that he never met this person before in his life. (The ninja was good enough at his job not to have any identifying marks on his person.)

So right now there is a dangerous Ronin still at large and cleared of all charges who is still the right hand of a powerful crime lord. He is also the one currently keeping tabs on Ronin PC.

Looking for an appropriate punishment for my Players characters for their botched investigation. Something that will appropriately slap their wrists yet no so bad that they would need to seppuku or be cast out (for the sake of keeping the party together).

Let me explain;

The players are Yoriki to a magistrate (which I am very loosely defining as they are essentially "cops" working for a "chief".) They were investigating the dead body of a Phoenix Patron Merchant found in a river by local fishermen. Investigation uncovers that a local Crane Merchant/crime boss hired a ronin to kill the Pheonix and make it look like the Pheonix's Unicorn rival did it. The problem for the PC's is that they couldn't find any damning evidence or testimony of the crime: they know he did it but can't PROVE it. Desperate, and dealing with the fact that the Crane was fabricating evidence and witnesses, the scorpion used her own connection to fabricate a witness and sent a ninja to weaken the Cranes yojimbo, anticipating a duel. However, since the rest of the group was not in on this plan they got a writ of appearance and took the crane and his yojimbo to their office as a "guest". The Lion posted 4 guards to secure the area. The Crane PC, acting in the best interest of his clan, found out about the witness for the crime lord and passed the info along. During the night while the PCs are out conducting a failed sting operation to catch the ronin, the scorpions false witness is found dead in her home and the ninja fails in his attempt to poison the yojimbo, taking 2 lion guards with him. The Governor demands answers...

Unfortuantely, after an intense court scene the players where unable to convince the court of any wrongdoing by the Crane Crime lord strong enough to warrent the case being settles by a duel (do in no small part to the Crane PC acting as the defacto defense attourney for the Crime lord, a feat he was able to do by passing off as "just being honest and forthright" about the evidence they had.)

Here is the current state of the players and what they are to be reprimanded for;

Crane: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Made a speach to take full responsibilty for the failure of the investigation. Despite doing so with proper decorum, the Magistrate is not happy that he sandbagged the trial.

Scorpion bushi: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Accused of improperly handing the case in a deliberate attempt to make the Crane look bad. Accused of fabricating witnesses (know one knows if its true since the fake witness is dead and never testified)

Crab: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Shown to be a violent, uncultured brute. Accused of being part of the scorpions "pincer alliance" attempt to defame the Crane.

Ronin: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". The magistrate is disappointed that he chose to remain "humbly silent" ad is proper for a ronin, yet begs the question of why he is a yoriki if he contributes nothing to the investiagtion. (also, none the the player characters know the the ronin was actually forced by the Crime lord early on to kill the only real witness to the case

Lion: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer".

Unicorn: Failed to find the Phoenix's "real killer". Accused of diverting the investigation away from the "obviously" guilty Unicorn suspect.

(Lion and Unicorn players were not present for final court session. Have been conducting themselves honorably so far. The Lion knows that his clan was part of a massive weapons trade agrement going on between the Lion, Crane, and Phoenix merchants, damning evidence for the Crime Boss' motivation, but would not share the info so no one would ask why the Lion are suddenly amassing a large stockpile of weapons

It should also be known that the commander of the Lion forces in the region has essential taken over the magistrates office in the region to "help prevent further mistakes".

No one can answer this. Not really. Your version of Rokugan is so insanely removed from everything about the game that... man... seriously, instead of "Crane" this should have been "Dwarf" and instead of "Scorpion" this should have been "Elf" and instead of "Crab", "Lion" and "Unicorn" this should have been "Orc", "Human" and "Hobgoblin". Drop all pretenses of them being samurai whatsoever, assume they all occupy the same basic shared society.... then you have a decent story here. Or, you know, replace those D&D races with a selection of other fantasy races, but understand-- no one here is a Clan, no one here is a Samurai. It is literally the only way for this to have made any sense...

First problem. Phoenix Clan Merchant. Crane Clan Crime Boss. Right there it tells me you either haven't remotely the faintest clue how Rokugan works or you willfully chose to ignore it... in which case why are you asking other people how to handle this? This is your own weird parallel world where nothing makes sense according to the rules everyone else is familiar with.

Samurai don't have merchants. Merchants do not have Samurai Clan affiliations. Sure, the merchants pay taxes and I suppose in that one could claim they "belong" to one clan or another, but really... they can pick up and go somewhere tomorrow and pay taxes to someone else entirely different. Samurai Clans are the government and the military rolled into one. They are specifically forbidden from dealing in economic activity. You would never, could never have a Phoenix Clan merchant. They deal with taxes, yes, but not mercantile activity. They do not move goods for money. Every time you said "Phoenix" in your explanation here, you said "This is not Rokugan, it isn't even remotely like Japan either." As harsh as my statements might be, you need to realize that right there you just violated several of the most important things in the setting and put it directly at the heart of your story.

Second-- Crane Crime Boss? How? Why?! You seem to have missed the whole concept of the celestial order. 90% of the population of Rokugan has NO clan association! You forgot this and done screwed everything up by giving everything clan association. A member of the Crane Clan would have had a specific duty and been posted somewhere. They haven't the freedom to act anywhere near enough on their own accord to ever become a "Crime Boss". Moreover, that whole celestial order thing!! A samurai is 100% free to do whatever they want whenever they want to any member of society who is not a samurai. Literally the only crimes that he could be committing would be against fellow samurai or dealing in a few things that are banned by imperial edict (maho, medical research, foreign culture, etc.) now if the clan has assigned him specifically to deal in such things, and surely they must have done this if he has other samurai working below him, he is not a "Crime Boss" he would be a secret agent dealing with illicit materials against imperial edict.

Moreover, that whole celestial order thing. If a Crane Clan member wants to kill a merchant, even a favorite pet merchant of the Phoenix Clan, then he merely need do so and no real crime occurred. That is it! That is all! It ends with a half-sincere apology letter and a few coins of compensation for damaging their property to smooth things over. Merchants are at the bottom of the order, right barely above the eta, samurai are free to rob, maim and kill them at their own discretion. Even in other Clan's territory. And even Ronin are considered samurai, so this isn't even a crime if a ronin did it.

So you had this magistrate decide to gather people from 5 different provinces to investigate what wasn't even a crime to begin with. You basically had a detective form a 5-way international committee for the investigation of the equivalent of breaking a window. This so-called "Crime Boss" who could not possibly be a Crime Boss could have just waltzed in there and said "yep, I kill him. Didn't like his face." and it would be done and he would receive no punishment over it.

You have driven so far off the rails here that... whatever. You are in your flippy parallel reality and can just dictate the appropriate resolution yourself and no one could really help you reach a proper answer because.. NOTHING about this story works if it has anything to do with samurai at all.

But if I were to try to dissect things in terms of punishment... first...

No way is anyone going to commit seppuku over this crap. Why does L5R get infested with idiots who think the samurai's answer to every last stumble is to kill themselves. You kill yourself if you are basically going to get tortured to death if you don't kill yourself or if you have been forced to do something that violated your desires or ethics to such an extent you cannot continue. And maybe, just maybe, if the guy you swore to put your life on the line got killed and its kind of undeniable that it is in fact your fault and if you don't show regret in some dramatic manner, your entire family is likely going to suffer as a result.

I tried to do something I'm not particularly good at and fell flat on my face? That's not a "kill yourself" offense. That is "probably not going to get that promotion" offense.

And, most importantly, the majority of the blame for this has to fall on the Magistrate who hired a bunch of random amateurs instead of handling the matter himself.

Most crimes don't get properly solved. If they did, there would be no such thing as career criminals or serial killers. In Rokugan, their methods for solving crimes are extraordinarily primitive and unreliable, even when they use magic. That means even fewer crimes are going to get solved. The part where they end up with egg on their face here is the fact that they ever let this get before a court and a judge. That never should have happened. Just otherwise, the investigation could just stay open indefinitely.

Apparently according to your second post, the Court believes that the ninja is the ronin and he is the one who killed the merchant. Once again, I reiterate that if this was Rokugan and that WAS a merchant, the magistrate would get verbally abused for having wasted absolutely everyone's time and the "ronin" would be told to pay the Phoenix Clan some compensation and a letter of remorse. BUT.... since this is your weird, wacky parallel Rokugan where apparently samurai engage in merchant activity and are not considered utter loathsome disgraces that the clan would be happy to be rid of.... fine, execute the ronin-- maybe beheading or maybe boiled alive in oil or something else gruesome and maybe put the remains on display as a warning.

At that point the case is considered solved, everyone has saved face and all of the measures you wrote out never should have happened because why on earth to do take such dramatic and critical actions over a case that is solved. It is only between the PCs and that one magistrate that anyone will ever need to know that the case was solved unjustly.... thing is... it is almost certainly not a rare occurrence.

If you absolutely, positively want to go against the last tiny shred of how things would be handled in Rokugan society-- fine. Even though the killer was caught and executed, for some bizzaro reason everyone in the whole world still gets to know that they bumbled the whole thing and they failed to get the mastermind (and, seriously, what sort of mastermind is he that the whole world knows he was really behind the whole thing?) and so they suffer some honor and glory losses. Not only is that Magistrate unlikely to hire them again (if he even keeps his post since apparently you are 100% deadset that this comes out to the whole world as a debacle) and other people who hire them will be far less certain of their abilities.

But, really, I don't see how or why you have even had the Lion take over the Magistrates office during an ongoing investigation and had everyone act like anything had gone wrong. Because this is your Bizzaro Rokugan where apparently merchants and crime bosses are samurai instead of being commoners like they SHOULD be, and they actually had this whole **** case over something that never otherwise would have been investigated... if at the end of the day, the Court saves face by executing the fake ronin, then nothing else needs to happen to the PCs by society at large. They will know in their hearts that they done screwed up and that is something they have to carry with them for the rest of their days. Maybe some minor honor losses are due, after all apparently honor can be lost even if there are no witnesses... but beyond that, the PCs have gained 2 major enemies (Disadvantage enemy) for which they receive no XP points to spend-- and if you want to be really mean, if this so-called "Crime Boss" was in fact doing his duty as a Crane, and this whole thing screwed up vital operations for their clan, then the PCs might even get Clan Animosity disadvantage from the Crane clan until they have done something to make up for this. After all, they did drag a Crane Clan member to court and made accusations against him that they couldn't back up-- so the whole clan might whole a grudge about this.

Wow, ok, Mr. Hobgoblyn-sama. Apparently giving a quick shorthand of the situation for the sake of brevity was good enough. Please allow me to clarify some points to give the situation some proper context.

The "first Problem" is your first problem. I said the Phoenix was a merchant Patron: A samurai who funds an actual merchant to act on his behalf and by extension his clan. My current setting has 4 notable Merchant Patrons, each of whom have varying degrees how much they oversee their own enterprises. Actually, the Phoenix has the LEAST amount of oversight of his own merchant and focuses mainly on high-profile inter-clan trades. The Unicorn is an Ide, The crane a Daidoji, and the 4th being a Yasuki who was not mentioned as he has no immediate bearing on this case. But your idea that Samurai do not deal with mercantile exchanges is a gross misconception of even L5R's weird version of Japan/Rokugan. Not only does each clan have people specifically assigned to handle trade negotiations, some clans have entire families dedicated to the function. And lets not forget the Mantis who are pretty much a Great Clan dealing heavily in mercantile affairs, second only to the Crane who simply have the decorum to not be as obvious about it. I am not even going to get into "REAL" japan, where not only are samurai WAY less ideal as L5R romanticizes them but the unique position of Merchants puts them below everyone in the social order but real world economics forced them to have legitimate practical power rivialing daimiyo in some cases (until local warlords either seizes their assets of force them to forgive their debts, spinning their economy into perpetual chaos). And that's before you looks at samurai throughout the ages. A Sengoku merchant is a lot different than a Tokugawa merchant. My point is: Clans have merchants.

Second, my "Crane Crime Boss" is short hand for a member of the Daidoji Trading Council operating in the area, maintaining an honorable and respectable appearance in court while conducting his operations with a network spies, ronin assassins, Black Mail, and even close ties with a bunch of friends who never even suspect his nefarious deeds. Crane are not inherently immune from corruption nor abuses of power. In fact, anyone who finds out about the extent of this Cranes corruption end up either dead or blackmailed into service (which is what happened to the PC ronin).

So the Crime in question is not some random merchant, but a Phoenix Clan Samurai of some influence in the city. A Phoenix who was trained to be a courtier specializing in trade when it was discovered he could not speak with the Kami. The sudden death of a samurai in town is generally at least worth investigating, especially in an area where multiple clans are located. Where is my game set?

Naisho Province: an official location specifically designed to accommodate an RPG session. Imperial Controlled yet with a heavy presence of all of the Clans (or at least as many as I want). A high tension area as every clan is maneuvering for power to be the chosen as the overall Owner of the Province. That is also how you get a Yoriki team from multiple clans under 1 magistrate to solve Multi-clan issues. This is also the reason for the heavy Lion interference: In the Naisho setting the Lion are the military arm of the Imperial Governor keeping the peace between the clans, especially the Crane and Scorpion who have armies camped inside the Province in a cease-fire awaiting the results of the Governors decision.

As for PUNISHMENT (the real focus of this topic), I already said I was avoiding Seppuku. However, there are still serious allegations that some would say could invoke seppuku depending on how strict i (and by "I" I mean the the PC's NPC bosses) want to be. Not for failing to find out who killed "a random merchant", but for 1. Failing to adequately explain how their investigation resulted in the deaths of several Samurai, an issue made worse by the Crane being pardoned of all Crime. Now the players Failure have directly resulted in the deaths of several "innocent" samurai, an issue not taken lightly. 2. While not proven, it was heavily implied that the Scorpion may have Fabricated evidence and witnesses. A serious crime. 3. It was implied that the entire investigation was actually an attempt by the Crab + Scorpion "Pincer Alliance" to weaken the position of the Crane. A serious allegation alone, made worse because of the current social environment on Naisho (remember the armies?). 4. The Crab, as Crab Players tent to do, has failed multiple etiquette rolls and was found to be excessively violent to NPC's who by verdict of the court were found to be innocent and undeserving of such treatment.

So I hope the clarifies things for you. I am sorry I tried to abbreviate the situation and didn't show my due diligence explain all the aspects of my ongoing campaign and a case that has been going on for a few weeks now. I hope you properly understand what I am asking now.

Now that that is clear, might I say WHAT THE HECK!?!?!?!? is this how you respond to all lore questions? A pissy, 4-page report going on and on about "how i'm not doing it right" and "my world is all wrong". Aside form the fact that it looks like you barely know the setting and/or Japan yourself, i find it disturbing that this is how you chose to go about answering peoples questions about the setting. You barely answered anything at all! 1604 words criticizing my campaign, half of it with wrong information, and ignoring some of the most important aspects of my question that I DID flesh out. What if I was someone brand new to the Hobby? Roleplaying OR L5R? Is this how you would respond to a newb asking a simple question? I don't doubt it because all the time we have to hear Horror stories about how someone was interested in L5R long ago but then got scarred away because some jerk, instead of properly introducing them to the game, mocked and insulted them for not knowing anything until they left.

Congratulations, you are everything that is wrong with L5R.

Jerk.

You know, Hobgoblyn, when you go on a rant about how "other people are getting the setting wrong!", it would pay to both a) remember this is a game open to interpretation; b) remember that samurai are people, and therefore can really be anything a person can be, in terms of occupation and mentality; and c) read and actually know the existing lore. You know, the ol' "glass houses and rocks" saying.

Although amusing to some, such tirades (especially this long) get old fast - and are extremely annoying to the OP, as demonstrated above. Furthermore, they add nothing to building a healthy and helpful community. Another ol' saying is "if you can't say nothing nice don't say nothing at all".

----

Onimaru:

First a reminder: keep in mind that proof is really a secondary thing (unless you're dealing with Dragons). If folks can get enough witnesses, they can achieve their goal (something that works for PCs and NPCs )

As far as punishment go... and please keep in mind these are just personal opinions

Crane: I'd have him lose some Glory, but gain a little Honor (depending on his current Rank, of course)

Scorpion bushi: Big Glory and a Honor loss. If the accusation of fabricating witnesses stand, increase the losses (but give him a chance to duel his way out of it)

Crab: Little loss of Honor, some Glory loss

Ronin: A little Glory loss, no biggie.

Lion: Average Glory/Honor loss

Unicorn: Average Glory loss. Increase the loss and add some Honor loss if the accusation stand (same situation and the Scorpion)

As for non-mechanical punishments, demotions are always popular, as are assignments to less prestigious locations (20 Goblin Winter is always popular too )

Glory and Honor losses for all. As the good Bayushi has suggested punitive assignments are always a good method, personally i'd stray from the Twenty Goblin winter...but that's just me. I would have something with a bit more Social backlash as an assignment. Such as...helping the Kasuga clear out some Ratlings/Ronins/Bandits/Maho Tsukai out of the sewers. My players had once let a suspect go due some compromising information that was had on the Dragon in the group, three sessions of wallowing around in filth and the dark later and they decided that their duty was more important than their honor or standing. If doing the sewer idea don't forget the build up of gasses that make things like Torches or Fire Spells a truly bad idea.

You could have the Magistrate declare the case closed - obviously the ninja was guilty of all the crimes! Then have him privately offer the Crane, and/or the Scorpion, the options of Sepukku, or going on a Musha Shugyo (Quest where the one going is a ronin, temporarily, while they are on the quest). It could be openended, or something specific, like 'win 20 duels against different people', or 'visit each of the 7 Shrines of Bushido'. Anything you want like that. Just a thought.

First a reminder: keep in mind that proof is really a secondary thing (unless you're dealing with Dragons). If folks can get enough witnesses, they can achieve their goal (something that works for PCs and NPCs )

As far as punishment go... and please keep in mind these are just personal opinions

Crane: I'd have him lose some Glory, but gain a little Honor (depending on his current Rank, of course)

Scorpion bushi: Big Glory and a Honor loss. If the accusation of fabricating witnesses stand, increase the losses (but give him a chance to duel his way out of it)

Crab: Little loss of Honor, some Glory loss

Ronin: A little Glory loss, no biggie.

Lion: Average Glory/Honor loss

Unicorn: Average Glory loss. Increase the loss and add some Honor loss if the accusation stand (same situation and the Scorpion)

As for non-mechanical punishments, demotions are always popular, as are assignments to less prestigious locations (20 Goblin Winter is always popular too )

That's probably the kind of punishment that I would do. From the reading, it's nothing big enough for a Seppuku, far from that.

In addition of that, though, I guess that the Magistrate could ask for a dirty task which wasn't a priority but was in the pile of stuffs that had to do, like guard duty for a while or guarding a small trading caravan, something that is usually done by Ashigaru.

Otherwise, they could also, depending how mean you may want to be, to ask them to do a ronin pilgrimage for a few months, which this would requires to drop their Clans for a while. This is also a common punishment, when it's not worth of Seppuku. Of course, this would mean nothing much for the ronin, but for the others, this would mean they would have to work to have their food, their equipment. This is kind of punishment is done to low rank samurai in order to fully understand their role and duty in the Empire. By doing this, they should get striped of all their gear, except for some mon-less cloths and their daisho, nothing else and everything is kept preciously by the Magistate.

I'll admit that you have an interesting story in your hand!

Well, I would say it partly depends on the characters and how well connected they are. The punishments will be lighter if they have powerful patrons, but I would sent them for a tour of duty on Exile's Road, so they can see what might happened to them if they screw things up, again.