Sorry, Demo gets me all ranty. And I had a very frustrating loss this weekend that was entirely due to it.

The mc30 player deploys spread out, the only viable target near demolisher jumps demo. There is nothing left for demo to attack.

Very few demo lists have anything remotely scary alongside it. Ignore the one horse trick.

What advantage can you possibly be looking for that is better than another corvette?!

The only one I can think of is bragging rights...

Alpha striking Demolisher is pretty **** valuable.

This.

I don't think I was clear with my point- typical DeMSU is what, ~380? You can fit a couple good squadrons or really pimp out your ships and not be in danger of losing initiative.

349 is low to the point its a waste.

On MC30s:

1. With Ackbar, the EA+Torp corvette is not as crazy as it looks as you pack 1 red, 2 blue, 3 black out the sides, which means at long range you can Ackbar for 3 red, and at medium you are 3 red + 2 blue. It is a significant increase in firepower if you fire from the sides 1-2 times per game only at a range other than short.
2. APT+OE matters most if you also have a CF and double arc on the MC30 torp, as then you become relatively likely to double tap with the APT when you can have 3 black out the front as well as the side with the CF (roughly 67.5% chance to double tap a ship with APT in that situation).
3. The real opportunity cost should be also considered as not being able to take XI7s, as an XI7 + APT + OE MC30 Torp is kind of totally terrifying, especially if you are not taking Ackbar. Can't effectively redirect, APT already passing damage straight through to the hull. It's bad. You can one shot most small to medium ships pretty reliably.

On bids:

1. Ignoring fleets that want to go 2nd for a moment, the efficient frontier for bids is "one full ship counter-attack". That is to say, the counter to a 5 ship demolisher list is a 6 ship demolisher list, so to speak. As Clontroper has said elsewhere, one of the counters to his list is a version of his list. Therefore, your bid should be as low as you can go before a credible counterattack materializes. In short, at least one full activation (39 points for Rebels, 44 points for Imperials, maybe more).
2. The reason for this is that you can do two things: one, if you are going first against a demo list, you can wait until demo activates, then get in its face and instead double arc demo. Second, if you don't bid and have an additional ship, you can demo or yavaris their demo, so to speak, by activating after their last activation.
3. Not ignoring fleets that want to go 2nd, your real limiting factor is playing with one hand tied behind your back against a Rhymerball or Rieekan. The real terror of a massive bid is not against another hard bid list, it's against a 400 point Rieekan bomber list that wants to go 2nd. That's when you have a real problem, as all those squadrons you skimped on are now not in the way of a B-wing triple tap from Yavaris or something similar, even though Yavaris is already dead after you went first, because Rieekan doesn't quit. Ever. Until the end of the round.

Likewise, flotillas should additionally reduce the bid pressure as they are cheap activations.

The reason for this is that you can do two things: one, if you are going first against a demo list, you can wait until demo activates, then get in its face and instead double arc demo. Second, if you don't bid and have an additional ship, you can demo or yavaris their demo, so to speak, by activating after their last activation.

Very nice write up! Although, I think that in the case of losing a bid and going second it's enough to have ship parity (as opposed to having an additional ship) to Demo your opponent Demo.

Reinholt, its not that simple. Wave 3 will reveal this.

X17s are valuable versus large ships more than small. Large ships tend not to be high activation, so there are other ways to deal with them (PT I said tend)

Having first player, black dice and mc30 titles means nobody wants to get close as its very hard to one shot them. They will respond with vengeance. Adding cheap activation in flotillas merely presents your opponent an easy target, presuming they have h9s or sensor teams that is.

Additionally, unlike clonisher, mc30 fleets are not dependant on last activation as they have multiple ships spread out across the board ready to manouver close to hit hard at the start of the next turn.

Rhymerballs are a problem, Rieekan is not. Rieekan just like all other admirals can do nothing about an mc30 which has fled at speed 4 after pillaging.

Really good post, Reinholt, as usual. I've really come to appreciate all of the thought you've put into every post you make.

A couple of my own observations:

1. I decided to plug away at the math today for these Ackbar Frigates. The Scout Frigate will throw 4 Ackbared dice. While you wouldn't want to put your flagship next to an MC80 broadside or an ISD, it could certainly settle up next to Corvettes/Raiders/Nebulon-Bs and plan on popping them for around 8 damage, which is the point at which the Corvette redirects 2, takes 2 on the shields, and then takes 4 to the hull and dies. Against the raider, you really want that accuracy to lock its brace. There's a 42% chance of an accuracy on 4 red dice, which isn't bad but isn't great, and you may continue to take red dice shots as the two ships separate from the initial engagement, or a follow-up from another ship might clear it. In short, I think the ability to knock down a Raider/Corvette in a single go is one of the most important uses of an MC30 in the game, and whatever build you choose needs to think about how it will do this.

The Torpedo Frigate meanwhile, hits 6.75 with 3 red, 2 blue, and 3 black, and you will want to use it as a heavy lifter against bigger ships. There's a 33% chance of a red accuracy and a 44% chance of a blue accuracy, or a 63% chance of an accuracy overall, plus a basic 6.75 average damage. This Ackbared/EA build is a little better on the damage, but a little lower on the accuracy percentage than some of the comparable builds (H9/APT/OE for Dodonna; I've also got an MM build with H9/Rapid Reload/OE). There's a trade-off of a bit more spent on the commander in this Ackbar build versus a bit less more on upgrades in other builds. Sensor teams could really change this up, guaranteeing that accuracy when needed. On the contrary, if you can spare the points on OE, those 4 points and extra damage, I always find worth it.

2. I think one big key with Ackbar and the Frigates is that with those really big broad arcs, you might get a chance to take a range-1 shot from one broad arc, and a range-2 or 3 shot out of the other broad arc. I've even double-arced range-1 out of both side-arcs, which is now a lot easier to set up as first player. It is absolutely brutal when it happens.

3. Demo lists have three big counters at the build level: Rieekan just messes with the entire mechanic around which Demolisher is built. Outbidding the Demolisher build is a second option. Out-activating it is a third option. Although Clontrooper shocked everyone with his list a few months ago, that list takes quite a bit of skill to fly well, which is why only a handful of players have replicated its success in the Regional season. And as pointed out earlier in this thread, if you really go for both a bid and activation advantage, you end up putting almost all of the hitting power in Demolisher.

I like this a lot. Ginkapo is right that this is a good counter to Rieekan. If you can kill and get out of range, you're in pretty shape. Rieekan has helped me the most in pinning big ships in place with Zombie Corvette's while still getting 4-8 damage that I wouldn't otherwise get out of them. If this build zooms in, blasts a Corvette, and then zooms out, all that damage is gone. Since Rieekan is prominent in our meta now (he may have gotten started as an important counter to DeMSU builds, but he's certainly grown beyond that), there's got to be some thought put into how to beat Rieekan as well. Just looking over the latest Regional thread, the fleets are very clearly clustering in one or two categories in their bids: The DeMSU builds are in the 370s or low 380s. Then there's a huge gap, and almost everything else is 398-400. So a 392 bid is going to get first player most of the time except against those DeMSU. I'm sure Ginkapo has a plan for flying this list second against DeMSU, whether that be in objectives or in positioning/flying.