It doesn't take a lot of imagination to field three of them, either.The Aggressors were fashioned to pair up, but I don't think FFG thought anyone would find three U-boats aesthetically/thematically pleasing. But I guess that's the difference between Fly Casual and Tournament styles of play.

If that's the case, that's a lack of vision/thought on the part of FFG and/or the playtesters. Seems like the first thing everyone does when new waves are spoiled is see how they can break a list of all that ship.

http://www.notsuchabadpilot.com/fahs/fear-anger-hate-suffering-analysis-of-the-nova-meta-vol-1-no-4/

Just gonna drop this here. I lost track of the discussion around page 6 so this may well be irrelevant. Notice how if anything is taking over the meta in the Nova area, it's aces (triple or palp-aces). That doesn't make people complain though!

Okay, so I'll just take my anti-ace tech like a TLT Stresshog... Oh wait, those die horribly to U-Boats.

I do agree Imperial Aces are dominant, but they weren't nearly as dominant before Wave 8.

Check the Regional results thread with an open mind and look at the numbers there.

Then - following your own logic and after reading the results, almost everyone must be flying HWK swarms now or be unable to adapt, right?

I'm the guy writing the summary results from the Regional results thread. This is a couple of weeks out of date, but tells a story...

The Jumpmasters that win are almost always teched beyond the standard "3x Agromech" build and had to be flown extremely well to combat the skilled Palp Aces and Crack Swarms up at the sharp end. Jumpmasters aren't winning any more often than any other top tier ship.

And most of the strongest Jumpmaster results are coming in Europe, where we've seen the greatest correlation between established top players picking up the Jumpmasters for this season.

Uh, you just posted a diagram that shows 164 Contracted Scouts in the top cut.

http://www.notsuchabadpilot.com/fahs/fear-anger-hate-suffering-analysis-of-the-nova-meta-vol-1-no-4/

Just gonna drop this here. I lost track of the discussion around page 6 so this may well be irrelevant. Notice how if anything is taking over the meta in the Nova area, it's aces (triple or palp-aces). That doesn't make people complain though!

Okay, so I'll just take my anti-ace tech like a TLT Stresshog... Oh wait, those die horribly to U-Boats.

I do agree Imperial Aces are dominant, but they weren't nearly as dominant before Wave 8.

Check the Regional results thread with an open mind and look at the numbers there.

Then - following your own logic and after reading the results, almost everyone must be flying HWK swarms now or be unable to adapt, right?

I'm the guy writing the summary results from the Regional results thread. This is a couple of weeks out of date, but tells a story...

The Jumpmasters that win are almost always teched beyond the standard "3x Agromech" build and had to be flown extremely well to combat the skilled Palp Aces and Crack Swarms up at the sharp end. Jumpmasters aren't winning any more often than any other top tier ship.

And most of the strongest Jumpmaster results are coming in Europe, where we've seen the greatest correlation between established top players picking up the Jumpmasters for this season.

Uh, you just posted a diagram that shows 164 Contracted Scouts in the top cut.

Sure, but if you assume the vast majority of those are 3-jumpmaster lists, you get ~55 actual lists. Then compare that to 50 inquisitor's and 67 shuttles (between OGP and yorr), it doesn't really look any worse. There's basically as many or more palp lists as there are uboats. And that's not county the 3-ace imp lists that don't use palp. Even if you split the difference between 2 and 3 scouts in a list, you only get around 70 actual lists with the scout.

So out of the imperial aces who does the best against uBoats?

Whisper

Fel

Vader

Inquisitor

Omega

X-wing is a competitive game so you cannot hate a player for taking the list that is strong and easy to play.

I think this bears repeating. When I go to regionals next month, I would expect to see Trip-Jumps. I don't have a problem with people taking very competitive lists to tournaments, that's the point of a tournament. But don't expect me to congratulate you on winning the thing.

Also, try to avoid them for friendly game nights... We had one guy start at our club, flew TLT's, then flew jumps. Not really a lot of fun, he'll struggle to find opponents if it continues.

This is a toxic attitude that runs entirely counter to the term "friendly match." It will be your piss-poor attitude that hurts your community overall. Not the type of lists that you've deemed "wrong think."

Not entirely. On a friendly game night, I fly fun lists. At a tournament, or game night where we practice for a tournament, I fly U-boats? Why? Because U-boats is a good meta list that is fun to fly. You may want to call it "point and shoot", but doesn't that go for anything with a firing arc? I mean, I am even arc dodging with Jumpmasters sometimes....

But I can see why people that fly meta lists on a fun gamingnight risk getting shunned by the local gaming community.

But if you play XWING with the core philosophy that DIAL(s)/TACTICS is what makes the game fun, then every LIST is a fun list because every list contains DIAL(s). You have every right to say, "Hey, I'm burnt out on 4-TLT, can you fly something else?" and I would respect it. But to straight up say 4-TLT or 3-JM5K is NOT a "fun list" is rather sad.

If you're not having fun; it isn't anyone else's fault but your own because you've a) Lost sight of what makes XWING fun; or b) Never had fun in the first place but continued to play because reasons.

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

That's because the toilet squad loses to Imperial Aces, while shutting down most of their counters. Aces are not a problem, they were in the game since forever, it's tiple scouts fault that list dominates the meta.

"they were in the game since forever"

Except "Omega Leader", The Inquisitor, and Palpatine. The first two are pretty new, actually.

You can't blame U-boats on making already good lists better. You can, however, blame them for invalidating things such as TLT spam. I, for one, am happy for that.

Aces generally have been in the game forever though. Those two being cheap and highly effective helps, but there are still builds with more traditional aces (Carnor is very popular for obvious u-boat-related reasons) and palp getting to very high levels.

The thing U-Boats can really be blamed for at high levels is nuking rebel regen/toolbox lists as a build archetype by dealing massive spike damage that they can't regen quickly enough whilst not nuking high-agi aces, particularly palp/aces, anywhere near as hard - and rebel regen was to some extent keeping palp/aces in check as the latter tended to have lower damage output and couldn't get through the regen quickly enough.

It's difficult to deny that u-boats have warped the meta when you look at the top 32 from Yavin, for instance, which contained just 4 rebel lists, 3 of which were dash/ghost, and only a total of 5 different rebel pilots, and was more than 50% palp/aces and u-boats.

Except the guy who won the, what, Regionals (?) in Utah? Yeah, he was running T65 X-wings. Rebels have the tools to deal with U-boats, and I'll admit that Rebel regen needed to be put in check anyway.

One guy makes an upset after dozens of tournaments over months of time: "Yeah Rebels can deal with U-Boats". I need to make it clear, this is the only list and the only person we have seen that can do so. It is 100% an out-lier, and statistically speaking, unless multiple people can repeat that success, it doesn't count. 1 Rebel victory out of dozens of Regionals and System Open tournaments where not only has that not happened, but even just the top cut don't have Rebel players in them the vast majority of the time is not the rule, it is the exception.

We don't know what happened in the tournament to make this happen. Perhaps he was pitted against a majority of U-Boats, which that list is clearly more strong against than Palp Aces. Perhaps he just got ridiculously lucky. Perhaps his opponent got ridiculously UNlucky. We don't know, and it's not fair to count that one, singular victory as Rebels having a good counter to U-Boats.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

I think the biggest issue with U-boats is that they are innately strong by the way you build them. They present a hill in the middle of the skill level. You can just buy in to 3xJM5K and fall somewhere in the middle sigmas of the bell curve because of how strong the ship is with a full load out. It is a forgiving list. The biggest issue is that there have not really been forgiving lists like this before. They arise in many games though and get the same amount of disdain. It doesn't really change anything though because they are what they are. I think if the X-wings ever get the fix people expect you will see 4x X-wing be the go to list which occupies this space. It is pretty impossible to avoid something taking the mid field unless the design space in a game is very limited. I compare them to Aggro decks in MTG. You just build a good deck or copy one and play the biggest stuff you can until your opponent is gone. It is frowned upon as skill less, but playing a tricky to pilot control deck is super skilled and so should be stronger and win. As long as one list is not actually winning everything you are probably still pretty close to actual balance and just dealing with meta chasing.

No forgiving lists? You mean like the pre-Nerf phantom, fat turrets, regen, TLT, and Palp Aces?

All of those lists are more forgiving than U-Boats. I'm not saying U-Boats is difficult to play, but it is more difficult than Palp Aces or other top tier lists of the past.

I am not sure pre-nerf phantoms were this forgiving. More broken but not exactly forgiving of bad flying. Fat Turrets and TLT are definitely forgiving but have bigger weaknesses. Regen was probably the prior closest thing to a forgiving list but you don't have nearly the hit points. Palp Aces is about as far from forgiving as I can imagine while still being a viable meta list.

So out of the imperial aces who does the best against uBoats?

Whisper

Fel

Vader

Inquisitor

Omega

In a vacuum, Carnor. Shutting down their shots is just too good. But OL is solid if you know how to fly him, ditto soontir - but as ever, assuming both players are of equal skill a lot depends on how well you judge your opponent, because most Imperial Aces should be able to run from out of range to range 1 in a turn, if it goes well for them.

OL and Soontir can both tank a single range 3 torp though.

Is the jm5k a very powerful ship? Clearly.

Is Palpatine the single best upgrade card in the game? Sure thing.

Should we feel more exhilarated, curious and respectful when we hear tell of players who choose not to use these very powerful options, and instead figure out a way to beat them with Attani Mindlink, Wes in a T65 or Dengar/Guri? I would say yes, of course we should.

All that being the case; why ask this question? Isn't it pretty obvious that the answer is 'yes, and rightly so'?

It's natural to respect tenacity, innovation, and individual approaches to a common problem.

So out of the imperial aces who does the best against uBoats?

Whisper

Fel

Vader

Inquisitor

Omega

In a vacuum, Carnor. Shutting down their shots is just too good. But OL is solid if you know how to fly him, ditto soontir - but as ever, assuming both players are of equal skill a lot depends on how well you judge your opponent, because most Imperial Aces should be able to run from out of range to range 1 in a turn, if it goes well for them.

OL and Soontir can both tank a single range 3 torp though.

I ask because I'm mostly a whisper player when using aces.

But no autothrusters I wondered if she is a good choice

Won a store championship with her, so I really like her.

I haven't used her again tripple uBoats, but have done well against builds with single uBoats.

I'm thinking she can probably still tank 1 pretty good, and stay away from an another, and then get behind them, but I'm just theory crafting.

Haven't put it to test yet

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

I think the biggest issue with U-boats is that they are innately strong by the way you build them. They present a hill in the middle of the skill level. You can just buy in to 3xJM5K and fall somewhere in the middle sigmas of the bell curve because of how strong the ship is with a full load out. It is a forgiving list. The biggest issue is that there have not really been forgiving lists like this before. They arise in many games though and get the same amount of disdain. It doesn't really change anything though because they are what they are. I think if the X-wings ever get the fix people expect you will see 4x X-wing be the go to list which occupies this space. It is pretty impossible to avoid something taking the mid field unless the design space in a game is very limited. I compare them to Aggro decks in MTG. You just build a good deck or copy one and play the biggest stuff you can until your opponent is gone. It is frowned upon as skill less, but playing a tricky to pilot control deck is super skilled and so should be stronger and win. As long as one list is not actually winning everything you are probably still pretty close to actual balance and just dealing with meta chasing.

No forgiving lists? You mean like the pre-Nerf phantom, fat turrets, regen, TLT, and Palp Aces?

All of those lists are more forgiving than U-Boats. I'm not saying U-Boats is difficult to play, but it is more difficult than Palp Aces or other top tier lists of the past.

I am not sure pre-nerf phantoms were this forgiving. More broken but not exactly forgiving of bad flying. Fat Turrets and TLT are definitely forgiving but have bigger weaknesses. Regen was probably the prior closest thing to a forgiving list but you don't have nearly the hit points. Palp Aces is about as far from forgiving as I can imagine while still being a viable meta list.

How? When you're nearly guaranteed 3-4 evades every single defense, i consider that pretty forgiving. The only thing that a Palp Aces list has to do is get their target in arc and not hit a rock, and considering that most Imp Aces end up with both boost and barrel roll, that's stupidly easy to do. Palp Aces list is by far one of the most forgiving in the game.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You're looking only at the top cut. How many rebels started the day at each of those tournaments? If only 183 rebel pilots have been played then 100% made the cut and they're in the best place of all. Your conclusion is based on an incomplete data set. And incorrect based on the parameters of the Coruscant Invitational.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

And incorrect based on the parameters of the Coruscant Invitational.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

As far as the invitational, he's talking about what factions won the system open tournaments to make it to coruscant. Not what they'll be flying when they get there.

The bit about how many rebel lists were flown at regionals vs how many made the cut is a more valid point. Though if they had low attendance also, the question becomes whether that's because they aren't competitive enough so people flew something else or just because someone felt like flying uboats or palp aces or whatever instead. Low attendance most likely indicates at the very least that most people FELT like rebel was less competitive whether it truly was or not.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You're looking only at the top cut. How many rebels started the day at each of those tournaments? If only 183 rebel pilots have been played then 100% made the cut and they're in the best place of all. Your conclusion is based on an incomplete data set. And incorrect based on the parameters of the Coruscant Invitational.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

I really hope it's not the T65 Xwing that's voted as the rebel ship, that'll just mean 7-8 Biggs based lists.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You're looking only at the top cut. How many rebels started the day at each of those tournaments? If only 183 rebel pilots have been played then 100% made the cut and they're in the best place of all. Your conclusion is based on an incomplete data set. And incorrect based on the parameters of the Coruscant Invitational.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

100% of Rebel pilots dont make the top 4. Sorry to burst your bubble. Even then; If only 6 Poes make the cut, and 5 make top 4(which didnt happen, only 3 of the 6 made top 4), but 50 Inquisitors make the cut and only 25 make top 4, Poe isn't in a better place because no matter what the overall number of Poes that made the top 4 is still dwarfed by the number of Inquisitors that made the top 4, this isnt changed just because 83% of Poes make the top 4 and only 50% of inquisitors make the top 4. Similarly, just because in reality Poe has a 50% top 4 success rate which is identical to the Inquisitor, DOES NOT MEAN that Poe is as successful as the Inquisitor. Poe still has less pilots in the cut than Inquisitors by a margin of just under 10 times.

If 10 Green Squadron pilots makes the cut, and all 10 make top 4, it has a 100% cut-to-top-4 rate. That doesnt make it the best pilot in the game. At the end of the day, 10 GSPs AKA 2 swarm lists were all that were run, and all that made the cut to begin with.

The most used Rebel pilots, Dash and the Lothal Rebel, only made the cut 16 times each. Dash has a 31% top 4 cut rate, while the Lothal Rebel is at 44%. That's still only 5 and 7 top 4 successes respectively.

I create a business. I hire one person. My business has grown 100% over the last year as a result. My business is not as successful as a major corporation because even though my total growth is better than most given corporations, my gross profit doesnt even begin to compare with those corporations.

Now about that "What about people who don't make the cut" thing. People either don't make the cut because their list is bad, or they are. Understand when i say "bad list" that i really mean a list that is just not suited to the meta. Anyways. Lists that are bad are naturally going to see less representation in the cut, because they're bad AND because skilled players are generally not going to use a bad list. The reason why analyzing everything is a problem and generally isnt done is because there's so much variance, and it generally doesn't matter what doesn't win. Lots of players can show up with Rebel lists, but nobody cares about them because they're not seeing tournament success. No matter what, whatever makes the cut is the important data. If we see a significant difference between factions with regards to numbers of their pilots that make the cut, then we know that there is an imbalance. Well guess what, there is a significant difference between factions with regards to numbers of their pilots that are making the cut. Rebels are seeing far less than half the tournament success than Imperials are. This is a fact.

Here, have some graphs.

Percentage of Imperial pilots that have made the cut: 49.7%

Scum pilots: 30.6%

Rebel pilots: 19.7%

Percentage of Imperial Pilots that have made the top 4: 48.0%

Scum pilots: 33.2%

Rebel pilots: 18.9%

Theres a pretty obvious imbalance.

As far as the invitational, he's talking about what factions won the system open tournaments to make it to coruscant. Not what they'll be flying when they get there.

The bit about how many rebel lists were flown at regionals vs how many made the cut is a more valid point. Though if they had low attendance also, the question becomes whether that's because they aren't competitive enough so people flew something else or just because someone felt like flying uboats or palp aces or whatever instead. Low attendance most likely indicates at the very least that most people FELT like rebel was less competitive whether it truly was or not.

I read it more as if he was implying that because they won with that faction they would play that faction again at the invitational. My implication was that, with the unique list building criteria, they won't be playing the same list that got them to the invitational regardless its faction; and I doubt anyone capable of winning a regional is a strict single-faction player, but concede the point.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

I really hope it's not the T65 Xwing that's voted as the rebel ship, that'll just mean 7-8 Biggs based lists.

Good point. Rebel HWKs then? tlt support ship for everyone! There really isn't a "bad" ship to choose for rebels.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You're looking only at the top cut. How many rebels started the day at each of those tournaments? If only 183 rebel pilots have been played then 100% made the cut and they're in the best place of all. Your conclusion is based on an incomplete data set. And incorrect based on the parameters of the Coruscant Invitational.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

100% of Rebel pilots dont make the top 4. Sorry to burst your bubble.

BLAH BLAH BLAH GRAPHS AND BLAH

Your earlier post referenced the top cut (everyone left playing after swiss ends), not top 4, as did mine.

This rant about top cut to top 4 statistics is irrelevant to that discussion.

Sorry to burst your bubble. Fun fact: it's impossible to stay mad while reciting the word bubble aloud five times. Give it a try!

As far as the invitational, he's talking about what factions won the system open tournaments to make it to coruscant. Not what they'll be flying when they get there.

The bit about how many rebel lists were flown at regionals vs how many made the cut is a more valid point. Though if they had low attendance also, the question becomes whether that's because they aren't competitive enough so people flew something else or just because someone felt like flying uboats or palp aces or whatever instead. Low attendance most likely indicates at the very least that most people FELT like rebel was less competitive whether it truly was or not.

I read it more as if he was implying that because they won with that faction they would play that faction again at the invitational. My implication was that, with the unique list building criteria, they won't be playing the same list that got them to the invitational regardless its faction; and I doubt anyone capable of winning a regional is a strict single-faction player, but concede the point.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

I really hope it's not the T65 Xwing that's voted as the rebel ship, that'll just mean 7-8 Biggs based lists.

Good point. Rebel HWKs then? tlt support ship for everyone! There really isn't a "bad" ship to choose for rebels.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You're looking only at the top cut. How many rebels started the day at each of those tournaments? If only 183 rebel pilots have been played then 100% made the cut and they're in the best place of all. Your conclusion is based on an incomplete data set. And incorrect based on the parameters of the Coruscant Invitational.

Each player at the Coruscant Invitational will bring a list for each of the 3 factions and in those lists will be the top vote getting ship per faction (Scyk, Imperial Firespray, X-Wing).

TL;DR: You're wrong, He's correct.

100% of Rebel pilots dont make the top 4. Sorry to burst your bubble.

BLAH BLAH BLAH GRAPHS AND BLAH

Your earlier post referenced the top cut (everyone left playing after swiss ends), not top 4, as did mine.

This rant about top cut to top 4 statistics is irrelevant to that discussion.

Sorry to burst your bubble. Fun fact: it's impossible to stay mad while reciting the word bubble aloud five times. Give it a try!

It doesnt really change my point. Like, at all. 100% of Rebel lists aren't going to make the cut, that'd be functionally impossible. It's the same exact deal. EVEN IF that was the case, which it's not, the number of Rebel players in the cut is still vastly outnumbered by both other factions. You're arguing over something stupid and pedantic because you want to be contrarian and look more intelligent, or more open minded, or SOMETHING. Ultimately the numbers are going to look roughly the same. Again, it generally follows that a similar percentage of the amount of Rebel players will make the cut, and a similar percentage of that will make the top 4. That percentage happens to be about 18-20%.

Everything i said in my last post still essentially applies. In any given tournament, 20% of all players will have a Rebel list. 20 or so percent of the cut will be Rebel players(1 or 2 lists in a top 8 cut), and 20 or so percent will make top 4(0-1 list). Going by the statistics we have, 4-5 of the top 8 will be imperial, and 2-3 will be scum, almost guaranteed to be playing U-Boats). 2-3 of the top 4 will be Imperial, and 1-2 will be Scum.

I honestly expect that the non-cut isnt that big of a difference from the cut. There will still be a lot of Palp Aces and U-Boats and not many Rebels. At that point it's just as much up to the list's quality as it is player skill, and that's why it's so hard to put non-cut data into this kind of stuff because you can't really analyze if it was the list's fault or the player's.

No matter what, AGAIN, your argument doesnt mean anything. It's pretty obvious that 100% or even as low as 50% of Rebel players will not make the cut in a tournament, because that has never happened on a global scale. This really isn't that hard to understand. I would think that if the majority of Rebel players made the cut, people would notice.

Again, if 1 dude shows up with a Rebel list, and makes the cut, that gives Rebels in that tournament a 100% cut rate. That doesnt mean Rebels are doing well; Only one guy showed up with Rebels! In your average 64 player regional, 12 will have Rebels, 20 will have Scum(10-12 of those will be U-Boats lists), and 32 will be Imperial players. This is represented in the cut, and in the top 4. The statistics show this.

I see what you're doing. If you find one thing to pick on in my post, ignore the rest and then pull the classic "U mad bro?" argument, you look like the cooler, more collected person, which contributes to your status in the argument, without actually having to take place in the argument. Won't work.

One guy makes an upset after dozens of tournaments over months of time: "Yeah Rebels can deal with U-Boats". I need to make it clear, this is the only list and the only person we have seen that can do so. It is 100% an out-lier, and statistically speaking, unless multiple people can repeat that success, it doesn't count. 1 Rebel victory out of dozens of Regionals and System Open tournaments where not only has that not happened, but even just the top cut don't have Rebel players in them the vast majority of the time is not the rule, it is the exception.

We don't know what happened in the tournament to make this happen. Perhaps he was pitted against a majority of U-Boats, which that list is clearly more strong against than Palp Aces. Perhaps he just got ridiculously lucky. Perhaps his opponent got ridiculously UNlucky. We don't know, and it's not fair to count that one, singular victory as Rebels having a good counter to U-Boats.

The outliers is what makes it fun. How it did so well isn't the real issue. The fact that it did do well is a valid point. The outliers are where you see the real strength of a meta. And we are beginning to see some great outliers.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You understand that the top 8 results are not a great indicator of how well a faction is doing. There is an extremely narrow margin of error for making the cut in these things. And with some of these being just immense in size, only looking at the top 8 is a poor way to analyze the game as a whole.

One guy makes an upset after dozens of tournaments over months of time: "Yeah Rebels can deal with U-Boats". I need to make it clear, this is the only list and the only person we have seen that can do so. It is 100% an out-lier, and statistically speaking, unless multiple people can repeat that success, it doesn't count. 1 Rebel victory out of dozens of Regionals and System Open tournaments where not only has that not happened, but even just the top cut don't have Rebel players in them the vast majority of the time is not the rule, it is the exception.

We don't know what happened in the tournament to make this happen. Perhaps he was pitted against a majority of U-Boats, which that list is clearly more strong against than Palp Aces. Perhaps he just got ridiculously lucky. Perhaps his opponent got ridiculously UNlucky. We don't know, and it's not fair to count that one, singular victory as Rebels having a good counter to U-Boats.

The outliers is what makes it fun. How it did so well isn't the real issue. The fact that it did do well is a valid point. The outliers are where you see the real strength of a meta. And we are beginning to see some great outliers.

At least 4 Regionals thus far have been won by Rebels. 2 by Dan Hars with his Corran/Biggs/Wes list, and 2 by separate players running A-wings. It's not like there's been a concerted effort by Rebel players to push those squads into a top place, either, both times they've shown up and won. The Rebels can't be in that bad of a state.

Rebels can and are in a terrible, awful state atm. The statistics showing as much have been passed around already.

Out of all pilots that have made the cut this tournament season, which has been 931 pilots, 183 of that has been Rebel, 286 have been Scum(164 of which have been Scouts), and the remaining 462 pilots have been Imperial. Percentage wise, Rebels have made the worst showing in the cut this season by far, and an abysmal victory rate. Rebels ARE in that bad of a state. Just the results show as much.

The fact that there will likely be no Rebels players at the Coruscant invitational says as much. I predict, based on the results we've seen, 2 scum players and 6 Imperial players at Coruscant invitational.

You understand that the top 8 results are not a great indicator of how well a faction is doing. There is an extremely narrow margin of error for making the cut in these things. And with some of these being just immense in size, only looking at the top 8 is a poor way to analyze the game as a whole.

Realistically speaking, when any list from an entire faction winning is considered an outlier/upset, that's a fault in game balance, not something that makes the game fun.

But look at the Regional results. Rebels are making a fine entry. Are they winning it all, not necessarily. But there are a lot of VCX/Dash's making the cut. You are too focused on the very, very top, when your very argument requires a greater sampling then just what won. A healthy meta isn't determined by what is winning it all.

But look at the Regional results. Rebels are making a fine entry. Are they winning it all, not necessarily. But there are a lot of VCX/Dash's making the cut. You are too focused on the very, very top, when your very argument requires a greater sampling then just what won. A healthy meta isn't determined by what is winning it all.

I AM looking at the regional results. Rebels are making an excessively poor entry. Their tournament success rate is less than half that of the Empire. There are NOT a lot of VCXs and Dashs making the cut. 16 Dashes and Lothal Rebels have made the cut after nearly 80 regionals. The Inquisitor single handedly outranks that, plus 1-2 more Rebel choices.

For instance; The Inquisitor, Omega Leader, and Whisper singlehandedly make up for every single pilot in "common" use by Rebels(not counting the miscellaneous pilots).

That's not healthy. That's dumb. We are in a meta where choosing to fly Rebel is the same thing as choosing to lose most of your games. The tournament data supports that opinion. One faction shouldn't make the cut only 20% of the time, while another makes the cut half the time. That's decisively unbalanced. Palpatine and U-Boats were one of the biggest mistakes this game has seen since the Phantom, and we know this is true because THOSE ARE THE LISTS THAT ARE WINNING THE MOST BY A HUGE MARGIN.

But look at the Regional results. Rebels are making a fine entry. Are they winning it all, not necessarily. But there are a lot of VCX/Dash's making the cut. You are too focused on the very, very top, when your very argument requires a greater sampling then just what won. A healthy meta isn't determined by what is winning it all.

I AM looking at the regional results. Rebels are making an excessively poor entry. Their tournament success rate is less than half that of the Empire. There are NOT a lot of VCXs and Dashs making the cut. 16 Dashes and Lothal Rebels have made the cut after nearly 80 regionals. The Inquisitor single handedly outranks that, plus 1-2 more Rebel choices.

For instance; The Inquisitor, Omega Leader, and Whisper singlehandedly make up for every single pilot in "common" use by Rebels(not counting the miscellaneous pilots).

That's not healthy. That's dumb. We are in a meta where choosing to fly Rebel is the same thing as choosing to lose most of your games. The tournament data supports that opinion. One faction shouldn't make the cut only 20% of the time, while another makes the cut half the time. That's decisively unbalanced. Palpatine and U-Boats were one of the biggest mistakes this game has seen since the Phantom, and we know this is true because THOSE ARE THE LISTS THAT ARE WINNING THE MOST BY A HUGE MARGIN.

Not sure where the 16 dashes and lothal rebels are coming from. Looking at the regional results thread I count 29 dashes and 32 lothal rebels. Not counting nay other ghosts or vcx (saw an eaden vrill in there).

But look at the Regional results. Rebels are making a fine entry. Are they winning it all, not necessarily. But there are a lot of VCX/Dash's making the cut. You are too focused on the very, very top, when your very argument requires a greater sampling then just what won. A healthy meta isn't determined by what is winning it all.

I AM looking at the regional results. Rebels are making an excessively poor entry. Their tournament success rate is less than half that of the Empire. There are NOT a lot of VCXs and Dashs making the cut. 16 Dashes and Lothal Rebels have made the cut after nearly 80 regionals. The Inquisitor single handedly outranks that, plus 1-2 more Rebel choices.

For instance; The Inquisitor, Omega Leader, and Whisper singlehandedly make up for every single pilot in "common" use by Rebels(not counting the miscellaneous pilots).

That's not healthy. That's dumb. We are in a meta where choosing to fly Rebel is the same thing as choosing to lose most of your games. The tournament data supports that opinion. One faction shouldn't make the cut only 20% of the time, while another makes the cut half the time. That's decisively unbalanced. Palpatine and U-Boats were one of the biggest mistakes this game has seen since the Phantom, and we know this is true because THOSE ARE THE LISTS THAT ARE WINNING THE MOST BY A HUGE MARGIN.

Not sure where the 16 dashes and lothal rebels are coming from. Looking at the regional results thread I count 29 dashes and 32 lothal rebels. Not counting nay other ghosts or vcx (saw an eaden vrill in there).

I'm going off of this:

Granted, this could be old. But then all the other numbers would change too, so honestly there may not even be a difference.