Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

Check the Regional results thread with an open mind and look at the numbers there.

Then - following your own logic and after reading the results, almost everyone must be flying HWK swarms now or be unable to adapt, right?

I'm the guy writing the summary results from the Regional results thread. This is a couple of weeks out of date, but tells a story...

The Jumpmasters that win are almost always teched beyond the standard "3x Agromech" build and had to be flown extremely well to combat the skilled Palp Aces and Crack Swarms up at the sharp end. Jumpmasters aren't winning any more often than any other top tier ship.

And most of the strongest Jumpmaster results are coming in Europe, where we've seen the greatest correlation between established top players picking up the Jumpmasters for this season.

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

Of all the top lists I think Palp Aces are the least pleasant to play against, and also probably the strongest single archetype.

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

That's because the toilet squad loses to Imperial Aces, while shutting down most of their counters. Aces are not a problem, they were in the game since forever, it's tiple scouts fault that list dominates the meta.

Come on!? In a couple of months it is a new meta and new kinds of lists.

I can remember when the whine was focused on Howlrunner, Fat Han, Whisper/Echo, 4 x TLTs ...

Check the Regional results thread with an open mind and look at the numbers there.

Then - following your own logic and after reading the results, almost everyone must be flying HWK swarms now or be unable to adapt, right?

I'm the guy writing the summary results from the Regional results thread. This is a couple of weeks out of date, but tells a story...

The Jumpmasters that win are almost always teched beyond the standard "3x Agromech" build and had to be flown extremely well to combat the skilled Palp Aces and Crack Swarms up at the sharp end. Jumpmasters aren't winning any more often than any other top tier ship.

And most of the strongest Jumpmaster results are coming in Europe, where we've seen the greatest correlation between established top players picking up the Jumpmasters for this season.

"# in cut : 164".

There's a reason they're normally taken in triples (and we're starting to see 2 + Palob).

Can you all guess what that reason is?

( )

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

That's because the toilet squad loses to Imperial Aces, while shutting down most of their counters. Aces are not a problem, they were in the game since forever, it's tiple scouts fault that list dominates the meta.

It wasn't even clear that anything consistently beat Palp Aces before Jumpmasters came around, it's just that the 'aces' pool was split between Rebels and Imperials. I think Jumpmasters have definitely helped to consolidate the aces field into just being various varieties of Imperials, but I don't think the overall dominance of "I've got more PS and a bunch of maneuvering options" has changed much.

"# in cut : 164".

There's a reason they're normally taken in triplets (and we're starting to see 2 + Palob).

Can you all guess what that reason is?

( )

Imperial Aces in cut: 218

Imperial Aces & Shuttles: 289

I think you dropped this...

This may have been addressed before but the same argument was made for all the pancake lists not all that long ago, More or less.

The main difference being Pancake lists originating as a counter to the Phantom. U-Boats never originated as a result of anything except for their own release.

They rose to whip PS2 TLT meta back to the stone age.

People complained like hell about TLTs, and now they can't, so they're sad

Come on!? In a couple of months it is a new meta and new kinds of lists.

I can remember when the whine was focused on Howlrunner, Fat Han, Whisper/Echo, 4 x TLTs ...

It's the cycle of life for this game, and people who can't see a foot beyond their own nose will always deny it. Hell I still laugh about how people hated and said swarms took no skill, and now, in this meta, the exact opposite.

I think you dropped this

I did, and rightfully so.

Aces are a combination of ships. typically 3+ different ships.

Vs the Uboats, which is one ship type with minor variations in their configuration.

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

That's because the toilet squad loses to Imperial Aces, while shutting down most of their counters. Aces are not a problem, they were in the game since forever, it's tiple scouts fault that list dominates the meta.

"they were in the game since forever"

Except "Omega Leader", The Inquisitor, and Palpatine. The first two are pretty new, actually.

You can't blame U-boats on making already good lists better. You can, however, blame them for invalidating things such as TLT spam. I, for one, am happy for that.

Bought 3 Jumpmasters to play 3 Jumpmasters and auto-win every tournament until the meta decides otherwise.

Bought 3 Jumpmasters to play 3 Jumpmasters and auto-win every tournament until the meta decides otherwise.

Good plan - they're just point and shoot and beat everything, no skill required.

I think you dropped this

I did, and rightfully so.

Aces are a combination of ships. typically 3+ different ships.

Vs the Uboats, which is one ship type with minor variations in their configuration.

Yeah, if Vader wasn't unique I'm sure people would still only run one copy.

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

That's because the toilet squad loses to Imperial Aces, while shutting down most of their counters. Aces are not a problem, they were in the game since forever, it's tiple scouts fault that list dominates the meta.

"they were in the game since forever"

Except "Omega Leader", The Inquisitor, and Palpatine. The first two are pretty new, actually.

You can't blame U-boats on making already good lists better. You can, however, blame them for invalidating things such as TLT spam. I, for one, am happy for that.

Aces generally have been in the game forever though. Those two being cheap and highly effective helps, but there are still builds with more traditional aces (Carnor is very popular for obvious u-boat-related reasons) and palp getting to very high levels.

The thing U-Boats can really be blamed for at high levels is nuking rebel regen/toolbox lists as a build archetype by dealing massive spike damage that they can't regen quickly enough whilst not nuking high-agi aces, particularly palp/aces, anywhere near as hard - and rebel regen was to some extent keeping palp/aces in check as the latter tended to have lower damage output and couldn't get through the regen quickly enough.

It's difficult to deny that u-boats have warped the meta when you look at the top 32 from Yavin, for instance, which contained just 4 rebel lists, 3 of which were dash/ghost, and only a total of 5 different rebel pilots, and was more than 50% palp/aces and u-boats.

I think you dropped this

I did, and rightfully so.

Aces are a combination of ships. typically 3+ different ships.

Vs the Uboats, which is one ship type with minor variations in their configuration.

Yeah, if Vader wasn't unique I'm sure people would still only run one copy.

But if Soontir was not unique you can be **** sure people would run two of him and a palpshuttle...

Such hate. Very salty. Wow.

Seriously, as a Triple U-Boat player, I can say that it is a strong list, but is far from unbeatable. It takes a certain amount of skill to play effectively. That being said, I was one of the people that dissed Quad TLTs, mainly because I am still a firm believer that they are point and shoot. Always have, always will be, and people will flock to it because of that.

I'm mainly confused that people still hate U-boats so much, but don't complain about Imperial Aces, which have been winning more tournaments. In fact, I don't know of a tournament in which U-boats have actually won. The most recent one I attended I only got Third place.

That's because the toilet squad loses to Imperial Aces, while shutting down most of their counters. Aces are not a problem, they were in the game since forever, it's tiple scouts fault that list dominates the meta.

"they were in the game since forever"

Except "Omega Leader", The Inquisitor, and Palpatine. The first two are pretty new, actually.

You can't blame U-boats on making already good lists better. You can, however, blame them for invalidating things such as TLT spam. I, for one, am happy for that.

Aces generally have been in the game forever though. Those two being cheap and highly effective helps, but there are still builds with more traditional aces (Carnor is very popular for obvious u-boat-related reasons) and palp getting to very high levels.

The thing U-Boats can really be blamed for at high levels is nuking rebel regen/toolbox lists as a build archetype by dealing massive spike damage that they can't regen quickly enough whilst not nuking high-agi aces, particularly palp/aces, anywhere near as hard - and rebel regen was to some extent keeping palp/aces in check as the latter tended to have lower damage output and couldn't get through the regen quickly enough.

It's difficult to deny that u-boats have warped the meta when you look at the top 32 from Yavin, for instance, which contained just 4 rebel lists, 3 of which were dash/ghost, and only a total of 5 different rebel pilots, and was more than 50% palp/aces and u-boats.

Except the guy who won the, what, Regionals (?) in Utah? Yeah, he was running T65 X-wings. Rebels have the tools to deal with U-boats, and I'll admit that Rebel regen needed to be put in check anyway.

But if Soontir was not unique you can be **** sure people would run two of him and a palpshuttle...

Ah, yes, then the Ace lovers would gladly take some of the U-boat hate on themselves.....

The winners have usually not been u-boats. I never claimed otherwise. Indeed, Yavin was taken by a swarm (a list archetype which I feel is very strong against u boats, but in a tournament format takes a lot more brainspace to fly having more than double the number of ships and actions to take account of, and which takes a lot more time to fly and to learn).

I wasn't saying u-boats are winning everything, I was saying they're winning enough at the mid-to-high tables that they're changing the high level meta to be full of them (well, them and palp/aces).

Yavin was taken by a swarm, but it was dominated by U-boats. The previous day's regional (with many of the same top players) had a final table of a 3x Jumpmaster mirror.

Yavin was taken by a swarm, but it was dominated by U-boats. The previous day's regional (with many of the same top players) had a final table of a 3x Jumpmaster mirror.

Okay, and? A lot of people are playing them because they're hot right now. People still, to this day, play pretty much exclusively TLTs if they have an option for a turret. And when they came out, it was even worse. It's going to always be like that.

You don't see it as a problem that in a game with three factions and significantly more than two list achetypes, the high level game is being dominated by two list archetypes and a third faction makes almost no impact on high level play?

I don't know what to say to that.

You don't see it as a problem that in a game with three factions and significantly more than two list achetypes, the high level game is being dominated by two list archetypes and a third faction makes almost no impact on high level play?

I don't know what to say to that.

Care to elaborate a bit more? There are 3 Factions, and each faction has numerous lists it can run. But, which faction makes no impact on high level play? If we're using results from tournaments, U-boats are popular, Imp Aces are obviously popular, and a guy won a tournament in Utah with T65 X-wings. Freaking X-wings. I fail to see how one of the 3 factions isn't making an impact.

Rebels are making almost no impact at high level play.

See previous comments about the top 32 at Yavin, about the top cut at various regionals.

The top tables are being disproportionately occupied by palp/aces and u-boats, more than any other lists, and there are damatically lower numbers of rebel lists than Scum and Imperial ones as a result.

I'm not talking about tournament winners, I'm talking about the top half to a third of tournament players.

Rebels are making almost no impact at high level play.

See previous comments about the top 32 at Yavin, about the top cut at various regionals.

The top tables are being disproportionately occupied by palp/aces and u-boats, more than any other lists, and there are damatically lower numbers of rebel lists than Scum and Imperial ones as a result.

I'm not talking about tournament winners, I'm talking about the top half to a third of tournament players.

Again...and? In Warhammer 40k, Eldar are considered over-powered because they win most tournaments. That's also because 60+% of people are playing Eldar at Tournaments. That alone is going to skew the numbers. Just because U-boats is being played by John, Bob, and Carl, doesn't mean they're game-breakingly good. It just means that a lot of people are playing them right now because they're popular. People were playing the crap out of Regen Poe when he came out, same as triple K-wings, ext. Like all things, it will pass.