I'm not even going to waste my time responding to this post. DOH!

Is it just me or do I recognize overall less respect and praise for triple-U-boat winners compared to winners with other squad lists (even Imp aces)?

I have never seen anything like this, even not with quad-TLT or Whisper builds some time ago.

Other experiences?

U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

I think you missed my original points.

Hugo suggested that everyone who complains is bad, which I'm simply pointing out that he's wrong in that regard.

That's not how I read it. I took what Hugo had written as "in my experience, the group of players that complain a lot and the group of players that play poorly have a lot of overlap". He didn't say that everyone that plays poorly complains or that all players that play poorly are complainers. There's a big difference between that and "everyone that complains is bad".

They need to stop making large "smuggler" ships amazing. That's the main problem.

And yes, the PS3 scout is too cheap by about at least 2 points, and having SOOOOO many slots made it bound to have a synergy combo.

FFG doesn't realize this yet, but their concept of synergy within upgrades on a ship just make it painful to play. What we were hoping for and what makes flying harder is synergy BETWEEN ships.

also, we really need actual hard counters to large ships. REALLY. REALLY! like now! Like, we needed them wave 5!!.

("Counters" that also counter small ship aces even harder do not count. like Conner.)

Can I just say this whole thing is sad. Really. I am not a tournament player, but it seems a shame to me that this one list causes such agitation, yet for those who play it with skill and cunning they are left in shows of poor sportsmanship, or so it would seem from the comments here. I don't know about everyone else here, but I joined X-Wing to fly lovely models in games that weren't totally time consuming. The sad thing is this list seems to have resulted in a negative play experience... Honestly I don't know what to say about this... I think people should fly what they want, and there will always be a meta. It is just a shame that there is so much contention... What I can say is this, every player deserves respect. They deserve congratulations and sportsmanlike behavior, absolutely. The question is are the U-Boats or Palp Aces unsportsmanlike to play. I would say no they are perfectly valid. If anything, FFG should issue a ban or limit like MTG when a card is overpowered. I'm not sure if the jump master is there, but there seems to be a lot of complaints. More so than I would expect for something powerful but fairly balanced. Just my opinion though.

As someone who doesn't like the effect of U-Boats on Rebels, I don't want a ban or limit. The meta is just unbalanced, not completely broken, and it'll presumably level out a bit with either Imperial Veterans or Heroes of the Resistance.

And people shouldn't have to deal with poor sportsmanship just because of the list they fly. That garbage people pedal to whine about lists they don't like is just obnoxious. I don't care if you play U-Boats or Palp Aces or TIE Swarm or quad TLT, other players should treat you with respect.

because its a boring list for babies OP hope this helps

From my own anecdotal evidence, alpha strike lists tend to be a (much) stronger. NPE than any other archetype.

I run mainly triple JM and used to run Glittercrack HLC Brobots before. Often in casual games with those lists I'd blow up an important ship in the opening engagement and then people would just say 'gg, let's start over'. This hasn't really happened to me with any other list, including Imperial Aces or Rebel Regen, even when games were even more of a foregone conclusion by the end of the opening engagement (positionally and squad build-wise I mean).

U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

And how would NOT guaranteeing those hits take skill? If you fly the exact same thing, without the automatic successes, that doesn't require any more skill, just more luck.

If your torps do less damage, you need to fly better to finish off your opponent when they're gone?

U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

And how would NOT guaranteeing those hits take skill? If you fly the exact same thing, without the automatic successes, that doesn't require any more skill, just more luck.

If your torps do less damage, you need to fly better to finish off your opponent when they're gone?

This. I can increase the chances of me doing 4 for 4 with a ship with target lock and my focus, but I have to get to range one of the opponent and have those relevant actions at the same time.

A torp boat can sit on the other side of the board and fire them whenever they have a shot. No range 3 bonus (unless autothrusters), no need to have a target lock, don't worry about spending the focus. Don't worry where the opponent is either because a sloop turn will let you turn around and still take that focus action you need. Bumps don't worry you too much because your PS3. Sure, you need to avoid asteroids, but everyone has to do that.

U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

And how would NOT guaranteeing those hits take skill? If you fly the exact same thing, without the automatic successes, that doesn't require any more skill, just more luck.

If your torps do less damage, you need to fly better to finish off your opponent when they're gone?

I don't know how many times I've been in a killbox (or had my opponent in one) and because one side had good rolls and the other had bad, flying better didn't work out. Anything that removes randomness from the dice helps to ensure that when you outplay your opponent you are able to get some benefit from doing so.

A Jumpmaster with proton torpedoes, agromech, guidance chips, and deadeye is (for its two shots) the offensive counterpart to Sootir Fel with Palpatine backup when it comes to consistent results.

From my own anecdotal evidence, alpha strike lists tend to be a (much) stronger. NPE than any other archetype.

I run mainly triple JM and used to run Glittercrack HLC Brobots before. Often in casual games with those lists I'd blow up an important ship in the opening engagement and then people would just say 'gg, let's start over'. This hasn't really happened to me with any other list, including Imperial Aces or Rebel Regen, even when games were even more of a foregone conclusion by the end of the opening engagement (positionally and squad build-wise I mean).

An alpha strike list ends the game decisively very quickly.

The defensive version of this: Palp Aces, where you're guaranteeing 3/4 and 4/4 evade results most of the time gives you the illusion that you have a chance against it when in reality you're just as screwed if not more so against it, it just takes longer to lose to it.

Acewings were around before Palpatine, even doomshuttles with 2 ace lists were around before Palpatine. So when Palpatine came out it wasn't perceived as a new list really. There is also this pre-Autothrusters notion that Interceptors take skill to fly and are fragile ships when in reality Soontir is the hardest ship in the game to kill without hard counters.

So someone day one of wave 8's release slaps down $90 bucks for their U-Boat netlist and sweeps the field with it and people get angry about it. Imperial players already had all of the components for Palp Aces sans Palpatine. They slap down $100 for their Vader fix card and Palpatine and no one perceives it as some sheep netlister paying to win because all that's changed is a single card, not 3 new ships even though in reality pretty much the same happened.

There is also another significant factor to this: People get used to certain metagames and when the meta shifts then they get angry that their beloved overpowered ship X no longer dominates. All of the Rebel players whining that Poe and fat turrets no longer work anymore for example.

TLT's changed the meta for the better by eliminating Fat Turrets from the meta.

Jumpmasters changed the meta for the better by eliminating TLT's, regen, and further pushing out fat turrets.

When Acewings get more counters to them and somehow Palp Aces is no longer top tier we'll have a bunch of complaining then. You're already starting to see a little bit of it with Quickdraw. "Being able to shoot in the activation phase?! That needs to be FAQ'ed that's not fair that you can damage my ships before they can token up! How will I be able to play Soontir?!"

I don't really want to get involved too much in this discussion, but I want to say that players who win with these power lists absolutely deserve some respect for their skill because they're beating other players playing with power lists, as well as good players with Tier 1.5 lists that they probably haven't ever seen before. That's hard to do.

I don't understand all the fuss, I have yet to lose to 3 scouts and have regularly beaten the crap out of them and even made a bunch of Them cry.

In fact, the only time 3 scouts even stood a chance was when one of the Girl Guides with them called the police. Squealers.

Sorry, I know, I know, but it's sooooooo funny!

I'm no expert and have watched far more games than I've played, but I find it hard to watch U-boats being played and it's especially boring when it's U-boat(s) against U-boats....it's just not interesting. However, arc dodgers are so fun to watch as well flown X's and TIEs too; interesting completely!

I'm agreeing that the Scout U-boats are under-costed by a few; at 27 or so they'd not be the lead weights that they are. The real problem is that they take out the Ace's real threats and thus weaken the diversity of the field as the tournament brackets get smaller. I'm thinking FFG has realized this...a bit too late sadly.

From my own anecdotal evidence, alpha strike lists tend to be a (much) stronger. NPE than any other archetype.

I run mainly triple JM and used to run Glittercrack HLC Brobots before. Often in casual games with those lists I'd blow up an important ship in the opening engagement and then people would just say 'gg, let's start over'. This hasn't really happened to me with any other list, including Imperial Aces or Rebel Regen, even when games were even more of a foregone conclusion by the end of the opening engagement (positionally and squad build-wise I mean).

An alpha strike list ends the game decisively very quickly.

The defensive version of this: Palp Aces, where you're guaranteeing 3/4 and 4/4 evade results most of the time gives you the illusion that you have a chance against it when in reality you're just as screwed if not more so against it, it just takes longer to lose to it.

Acewings were around before Palpatine, even doomshuttles with 2 ace lists were around before Palpatine. So when Palpatine came out it wasn't perceived as a new list really. There is also this pre-Autothrusters notion that Interceptors take skill to fly and are fragile ships when in reality Soontir is the hardest ship in the game to kill without hard counters.

So someone day one of wave 8's release slaps down $90 bucks for their U-Boat netlist and sweeps the field with it and people get angry about it. Imperial players already had all of the components for Palp Aces sans Palpatine. They slap down $100 for their Vader fix card and Palpatine and no one perceives it as some sheep netlister paying to win because all that's changed is a single card, not 3 new ships even though in reality pretty much the same happened.

There is also another significant factor to this: People get used to certain metagames and when the meta shifts then they get angry that their beloved overpowered ship X no longer dominates. All of the Rebel players whining that Poe and fat turrets no longer work anymore for example.

TLT's changed the meta for the better by eliminating Fat Turrets from the meta.

Jumpmasters changed the meta for the better by eliminating TLT's, regen, and further pushing out fat turrets.

When Acewings get more counters to them and somehow Palp Aces is no longer top tier we'll have a bunch of complaining then. You're already starting to see a little bit of it with Quickdraw. "Being able to shoot in the activation phase?! That needs to be FAQ'ed that's not fair that you can damage my ships before they can token up! How will I be able to play Soontir?!"

There are multiple problems here.

First is the assumption that Poe was overpowered. No. Just... No. He flies an X-Wing. Nothing in an X-Wing has been overpowered in X-Wing history. Poe was nothing more than a solid, consistent choice, but very much susceptible to many, many things, like jousting efficient craft, and anything that puts out high damage quickly. He was an answer to the consistency of Imp Aces. Nothing more.

The only thing Regen has been good against is low-damage output lists, like Ace lists. That is the only thing Regen has been efficient against, because no matter what you can only heal 1 shield per turn, and the only kind of list that works against is a list that barely puts out 5-6 hits a turn just on the initial attack roll. Regen was a popular Rebel choice solely because Imp Aces were just as popular; it was the no-brainer counter to Imp Aces. This is the exact same reasoning towards fat turrets; Fat Han existed solely to beat out the Phantom, and the Phantoms playstyle is similar to modern Imp Aces, which is why it stuck around. Nobody is crying over the loss of Fat Han, especially not me, but it's something i need to point out.

The main, glaring problem with U-Boats isn't that it has changed the meta. It's problem is that it has erased the Rebel meta, and not touched the Imperial meta. U-Boats has forced out all the things that Rebels used to keep on equal footing with the Imperial meta, but it has not forced out everything that the Imperials use. This is not a normal, healthy meta shift. Rebels are on a distinctly unequal footing with the other factions, as they no longer have anything common that can compete with either faction's meta.

In my opinion, there are two glaring mistakes in X-Wing. The first was Palpatine, the second was the Jumpmaster. Individually these two things dont represent much of a problem, but when put together the problem makes itself clear. Palpatine is such a good card to the point where not having it puts your list at an immediate disadvantage, and the Jumpmaster is simply too efficient to the point of dwarfing almost all other things. This is especially dangerous because unless a ban or restricted list becomes a thing, Rebels will need something equally powerful to compete, and that's honestly just as bad. I dont want a card or ship that you need to have to be able to win.

TLT's changed the meta for the better by eliminating Fat Turrets from the meta.

Jumpmasters changed the meta for the better by eliminating TLT's, regen, and further pushing out fat turrets.

This may have been addressed before but the same argument was made for all the pancake lists not all that long ago, More or less.

This may have been addressed before but the same argument was made for all the pancake lists not all that long ago, More or less.

The main difference being Pancake lists originating as a counter to the Phantom. U-Boats never originated as a result of anything except for their own release.

Krynn007 you misread my post I didn't win Hoth but the guy who did said earlier in this thread (I think) that it was difficult & took skill. I'm not that good with any list

TLT's changed the meta for the better by eliminating Fat Turrets from the meta.

Jumpmasters changed the meta for the better by eliminating TLT's, regen, and further pushing out fat turrets.

The ParaGoomba cycle in action.

1. Complain about list and say it takes no skill

2. Cheer for new list that defeats old list

3. Start complaining about new list and saying it takes no skill

I look forward to you turning on Jumpmasters, declaring they take no skill, and heralding whatever new ship pushes them out of the meta so you can complain about something new.

Not really, though. He said from the very beginning that quad TLT is boring as hell and takes no skill, but that he welcomes it for pushing away the fat arcdodging turrets. His ideal has always been a meta dominated by generic arcbound ships. I don't agree with that entirely, but you can't say PGS is inconsistent.

Quad TLT was a success as it influenced the meta without dominating it. Triple jumpmasters are simply too good and are shrinking the meta as a consequence.

The hate for Jumpmasters is crazy, and you get some utter **** talked about them. The first reply to this very thread is basically completely wrong in what they say about how Jumpmasters play, yet has a bunch of likes.

When it gets to the sharp end of competition Jumpmasters take real skill to win with - both in crafting the specific balance in the list from numerous options, and in flying to avoid being bumped and get your torpedo shots off. When opponents are fully prepared for your 4-dice attacks they're rarely decisive and it then takes really great piloting to attritively drive your weak 2 red dice turrets into a win. If you turn up with your 99pts 3x Agromech Jumpmasters then you can expect to get annihilated by strong opponents, you need to really work the list then fly it to the maximum if you want to stand a chance.

Yes, vs weaker opponents who either don't know what Jumpmaster do (or would prefer to whine about losing on internet forums rather than adapt their game) then they can be a bit "hurr durr 4 red hits" but it's been repeatedly proven that they don't hold any particular advantage over other top tier squad lists.

The first reply to this very thread is basically completely wrong in what they say about how Jumpmasters play,

Eh-

They are the very definition of point and shoot.

1. you need a target in arc.

2. you need a focus/TL in order to fire

3. the silly DeadEye/Mech/GC Combo ensures that you will lay down the max number of hits in the majority of your attacks

How is that completely wrong and not point and shoot?

When it gets to the sharp end of competition Jumpmasters take real skill to win with

For anything that cannot cancel 4 hits reliably and/or range-rush or bump, yes, it takes a modicum of skill to plan your approach - but, for anything else the game is: First Exchange -> Cleanup for ~20 mins.

Ok, if your opponent is a moron and refuses to adapt its point and shoot.

So play something that can cancel SOME hits reliably (don't have to stop all 4) OR range rush OR bump. Better yet do all 3 seeing as they're all good things to be able to do anyway.

I mean wtf are you playing that can't do any of those things? A HWK swarm?

Check the Regional results thread with an open mind and look at the numbers there.

Then - following your own logic and after reading the results, almost everyone must be flying HWK swarms now or be unable to adapt, right?