We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

I agree that the turret carriers have disappeared, and with them, their stress mechanics, but that's not the result of the Jumpmaster's arrival so much as it is Guidance Chips and the overall ordnance boost. Y's and K's simply can't stand up to that degree of spike damage, regardless of who's doing it. I can take three of the good old Scimitar Bombers out with Jonus behind them, and remove turret carriers with ease. The likes of Poe and Corran relied upon those meat-and-veg ships to be the distraction/shield while they used their regen abilities to hit-and-fade, so once one fell out of favour, it took the other with it.

I do think the Rebels are lacking now. Ordnance has punched a hole in their mainstay generics, and the perfect imbalance has just become a straight faction imbalance. I think Gamma Vets will probably highlight this a bit more, once Imp Vets drops.

I've tried running some Gamma Vets, and for what they bring I don't think they'll do as well as the uBoats.

Even with dead eye, Extra Munitions, ordnance of your choice, and guidance chips, they don't get the action economy that the uBoats have.

Not just that, but it's their hp. No shields, dial that hinders them.

I love bombers, I've used them effectively, but not when carrying ordnance.

Crew carrier and bombs, great, anything else still seems to require too much work.

They don't have the ease of uBoats

They don't have the ease of use, true, but I'll probably persevere and find a way to make them work for me, if only at a local level rather than anything competitive. Jonus with the shuttle title and some officer crew action seems like the obvious choice, but even something like LRS should allow for that alpha strike they'd need. Somehow, I don't think Deadeye is the right choice for these guys.

Besides, my 5 Scimitar alt-art cards that I worked so hard to build up need an airing with my bomber fleet...

On the point of hit points, the one thing the bombers have going for them in this department is simply not giving up half points. It's remarkably easy to pull away half points on the Jumpys within a few rounds. With the bombers, you can at least make your opponent work for it a bit more. Granted, there's just one point in the difference between half on the Jumpy and a dead bomber, but I've been able to abuse that with bomber builds in the past.

I'm genuinely curious how many people have played both triple Jumpmasters and Palp Aces and still feel that triple Jumpmaster is easier.

I have played both (only 3-4 Palp Aces games so far though) and IMO, outside very casual/new players who will fly straight at you, Palp Aces are the easy-to-use list of these two.

Stuff you need to take care of with Jumpmasters: arc control (you only shoot Torps in arc), range control (range 1 is bad for you), not getting blocked (no action=no Torps) and you need to do all that at PS3 with no post-maneuver repositioning (Barrel Roll=no Torps).

Things Palp Aces need to worry about: arc control (they only shoot in arc and they want to be outside enemy arcs) and not getting blocked, doing all that at ps 8-9 with at least 1 post-maneuver repositioning.

Maybe at the top competitive level (where people are much better at blocking) Palp Aces is harder to play, but at the level I'm at currently it's a lot easier than Triple Jumpmasters.

I'm genuinely curious how many people have played both triple Jumpmasters and Palp Aces and still feel that triple Jumpmaster is easier.

I have played both (only 3-4 Palp Aces games so far though) and IMO, outside very casual/new players who will fly straight at you, Palp Aces are the easy-to-use list of these two.

Stuff you need to take care of with Jumpmasters: arc control (you only shoot Torps in arc), range control (range 1 is bad for you), not getting blocked (no action=no Torps) and you need to do all that at PS3 with no post-maneuver repositioning (Barrel Roll=no Torps).

Things Palp Aces need to worry about: arc control (they only shoot in arc and they want to be outside enemy arcs) and not getting blocked, doing all that at ps 8-9 with at least 1 post-maneuver repositioning.

Maybe at the top competitive level (where people are much better at blocking) Palp Aces is harder to play, but at the level I'm at currently it's a lot easier than Triple Jumpmasters.

I think a lot of people joust straight at these things and lose half their list turn 2 and that's where a lot of the complaining comes from.

There are people playing lists that are already sub-par and would likely lose to Palp Aces or any number of other lists anyways, but since they lost a B-Wing in 2 attacks in one turn they complain. Even though if they faced Palp Aces the game would end with the Aces player having taken zero damage except for a handful on the Lambda. They don't have a chance either way, but U-Boats do it swiftly so it has more shock and awe to it. Personally I'd rather just lose the game and and have it be over, but some people are stupid enough to prefer a slow, painful suffering death with the illusion that they have a chance.

Then you have former rebel regen and fat turret players who can no longer just regenerate and C-3PO their way out of things.

And greedy Imperial players whining that something can actually damage Soontir.

We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

I agree that the turret carriers have disappeared, and with them, their stress mechanics, but that's not the result of the Jumpmaster's arrival so much as it is Guidance Chips and the overall ordnance boost. Y's and K's simply can't stand up to that degree of spike damage, regardless of who's doing it. I can take three of the good old Scimitar Bombers out with Jonus behind them, and remove turret carriers with ease. The likes of Poe and Corran relied upon those meat-and-veg ships to be the distraction/shield while they used their regen abilities to hit-and-fade, so once one fell out of favour, it took the other with it.

I do think the Rebels are lacking now. Ordnance has punched a hole in their mainstay generics, and the perfect imbalance has just become a straight faction imbalance. I think Gamma Vets will probably highlight this a bit more, once Imp Vets drops.

Rebels in general went from a diverse variety of lists to Ghost+Dash and trying to abuse Biggs to give the other ships more survivability. And I really do think it's Jumpmasters that are the problem; there's no other dedicated alpha strike list that could really work with the same consistency and resilience. Blount and Z-95s or Scimitars might be similarly lopsided match-ups for 1 green die ships, but they're hard to play because they have bad match-ups against other types of lists. Triple U-Boats doesn't really have a bad match-up right now because Palp Aces beats all their counters, and so everyone is playing them. They might not "dominate" the meta, but they do define it to an unhealthy extent.

I'm being overly negative, but it is discouraging when a third of the time I'm facing torpedoboats and another third I'm facing Palp aces.

I'm genuinely curious how many people have played both triple Jumpmasters and Palp Aces and still feel that triple Jumpmaster is easier.

I have played both (only 3-4 Palp Aces games so far though) and IMO, outside very casual/new players who will fly straight at you, Palp Aces are the easy-to-use list of these two.

Stuff you need to take care of with Jumpmasters: arc control (you only shoot Torps in arc), range control (range 1 is bad for you), not getting blocked (no action=no Torps) and you need to do all that at PS3 with no post-maneuver repositioning (Barrel Roll=no Torps).

Things Palp Aces need to worry about: arc control (they only shoot in arc and they want to be outside enemy arcs) and not getting blocked, doing all that at ps 8-9 with at least 1 post-maneuver repositioning.

Maybe at the top competitive level (where people are much better at blocking) Palp Aces is harder to play, but at the level I'm at currently it's a lot easier than Triple Jumpmasters.

I think a lot of people joust straight at these things and lose half their list turn 2 and that's where a lot of the complaining comes from.

There are people playing lists that are already sub-par and would likely lose to Palp Aces or any number of other lists anyways, but since they lost a B-Wing in 2 attacks in one turn they complain. Even though if they faced Palp Aces the game would end with the Aces player having taken zero damage except for a handful on the Lambda. They don't have a chance either way, but U-Boats do it swiftly so it has more shock and awe to it. Personally I'd rather just lose the game and and have it be over, but some people are stupid enough to prefer a slow, painful suffering death with the illusion that they have a chance.

Then you have former rebel regen and fat turret players who can no longer just regenerate and C-3PO their way out of things.

And greedy Imperial players whining that something can actually damage Soontir.

Why would someone try and joust a uBoat?

Something that obviously wants you to be right in front of it. Imo you'll learn fas in that case

I guess if your flying a jousting list you kind of have no other choice, but at least try to lure them into the asteroids, break them up some.

I'm all for fel taking dmg

I love flying fel and he's a pain to fly against, but I've found ways to deal with fel without needing to rely on uBoats.

I've beaten him on more than one occasion in this current meta with different builds, and against skilled opponents

My strategy works well when I pull it off with the right squad(s) (some squads though just can't cut it)

I'm a whisper player though, so I don't get the autothrusters luxury.

I'm genuinely curious how many people have played both triple Jumpmasters and Palp Aces and still feel that triple Jumpmaster is easier.

I have played both (only 3-4 Palp Aces games so far though) and IMO, outside very casual/new players who will fly straight at you, Palp Aces are the easy-to-use list of these two.

Stuff you need to take care of with Jumpmasters: arc control (you only shoot Torps in arc), range control (range 1 is bad for you), not getting blocked (no action=no Torps) and you need to do all that at PS3 with no post-maneuver repositioning (Barrel Roll=no Torps).

Things Palp Aces need to worry about: arc control (they only shoot in arc and they want to be outside enemy arcs) and not getting blocked, doing all that at ps 8-9 with at least 1 post-maneuver repositioning.

Maybe at the top competitive level (where people are much better at blocking) Palp Aces is harder to play, but at the level I'm at currently it's a lot easier than Triple Jumpmasters.

I've played both, and a lot of variations of both. I wouldn't say either were easier, as they play vastly differently to each other. What I would say is that keeping the Jumpys alive against a decent opponent is considerably harder than keeping Fel or the Inquisitor alive. It's comparing apples to oranges, though; high PS, high agility, highly reactive, high damage, massively action efficient ships vs low PS, medium agility, single action, high health pool, swing damage ships.

I say swing damage, because while they can be deadly with torpedoes (assuming they land and don't just get the Fel shrug off treatment), if they've already shot their load or their target happens to have gotten out of arc, that 2 attack turret is... well anything with AT tends not to care too much about it...

Rebels in general went from a diverse variety of lists to Ghost+Dash and trying to abuse Biggs to give the other ships more survivability. And I really do think it's Jumpmasters that are the problem; there's no other dedicated alpha strike list that could really work with the same consistency and resilience. Blount and Z-95s or Scimitars might be similarly lopsided match-ups for 1 green die ships, but they're hard to play because they have bad match-ups against other types of lists. Triple U-Boats doesn't really have a bad match-up right now because Palp Aces beats all their counters, and so everyone is playing them. They might not "dominate" the meta, but they do define it to an unhealthy extent.

I'm being overly negative, but it is discouraging when a third of the time I'm facing torpedoboats and another third I'm facing Palp aces.

Triple lists do have bad match-ups, I'd contend. Like I've said before, I tend to only play them in pairs, but I've sweated through a bunch of games against Carnor Jax, and even a couple against Wes. Omega Leader isn't exactly fun to come against either, Green Squadron A-wings have been a bane of late, and it's often very hard to get Dash into an arc before he's done significant damage to you.

There are plenty of bad match-ups for them. The difference is in how much experience each player has in the match-up, and whether they know how to exploit situations effectively.

We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

I agree that the turret carriers have disappeared, and with them, their stress mechanics, but that's not the result of the Jumpmaster's arrival so much as it is Guidance Chips and the overall ordnance boost. Y's and K's simply can't stand up to that degree of spike damage, regardless of who's doing it. I can take three of the good old Scimitar Bombers out with Jonus behind them, and remove turret carriers with ease. The likes of Poe and Corran relied upon those meat-and-veg ships to be the distraction/shield while they used their regen abilities to hit-and-fade, so once one fell out of favour, it took the other with it.

I do think the Rebels are lacking now. Ordnance has punched a hole in their mainstay generics, and the perfect imbalance has just become a straight faction imbalance. I think Gamma Vets will probably highlight this a bit more, once Imp Vets drops.

Exactly what i've been saying for a while now. Rebel high HP isn't enough to resist multiple high-accuracy torpedoes, Regen is too slow to make a difference, and most Rebel ships aren't maneuverable enough to dance with Aces, and the ones that can are low HP and dont have enough token stacking and agility to dodge those torps either. Basically there's really not much Rebels can bring to bear anymore that'll win. Biggs w/ R4-D6 is amazing against U-Boats; But then you play against Palp Aces and it's a T-65, so it loses. Poe was pretty good against Palp Aces, because he had good accuracy, Regen mattered because it was only two ships that dealt a max of 3 or so hits a turn each, which Regen, Poe's ability, and Autothrusters could easily keep up with, and the T-70 is maneuverable enough to tangle with those Aces, but it's not enough agility and health to survive 3 perfect plasma torps.

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Just because a player complains about something, that by no means makes them a weak player, but aren't you doing the same thing as you just commented on?

Degrading those who complain.

Once those who degrade others stop, will I as well stop laughing at them. Had a player constantly being negative at Hoth about how jumpmasters are not fun to play against, but what was he playing? A palp aces list. I explained to him some people find palp not fun to fight and that it to is an issue, but he wouldn't have any of it. his opinion was supreme, even though I explained fun is completely subjective.

And yes, you can be a weak player and win store championships, you might just be the biggest fish in the pond, till you realize there are great whites in the ocean. The whole reason I brought up the TOing and reports thing isn't to show im better, but to show that I've gotten to witness many a game. Any sadly the players that complain the most usually fall into the same group. The ones that insist they lost due to bad dice even though both rolled average, they just never took mods. They try to joust a superior joust list. Etc etc.

The crux of it, is the constant complaining, expecting others to bend to what you find fun, and not taking fun into your own hands. Even against lists I don't think are exactly fun to play against I take the time to figure out what the best way to beat them is, and learn to take fun away from learning new strategies.

I will contiune to believe complainers are weak, more so with a game, because even in all those examples you used, they would rather rant about the problem instead of solve it. And that is indeed weak.

We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

I agree that the turret carriers have disappeared, and with them, their stress mechanics, but that's not the result of the Jumpmaster's arrival so much as it is Guidance Chips and the overall ordnance boost. Y's and K's simply can't stand up to that degree of spike damage, regardless of who's doing it. I can take three of the good old Scimitar Bombers out with Jonus behind them, and remove turret carriers with ease. The likes of Poe and Corran relied upon those meat-and-veg ships to be the distraction/shield while they used their regen abilities to hit-and-fade, so once one fell out of favour, it took the other with it.

I do think the Rebels are lacking now. Ordnance has punched a hole in their mainstay generics, and the perfect imbalance has just become a straight faction imbalance. I think Gamma Vets will probably highlight this a bit more, once Imp Vets drops.

Sadly that's my other qualm about the uBoats.

I've tried running some Gamma Vets, and for what they bring I don't think they'll do as well as the uBoats.

Even with dead eye, Extra Munitions, ordnance of your choice, and guidance chips, they don't get the action economy that the uBoats have.

Not just that, but it's their hp. No shields, dial that hinders them.

I love bombers, I've used them effectively, but not when carrying ordnance.

Crew carrier and bombs, great, anything else still seems to require too much work.

They don't have the ease of uBoats

We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

I agree that the turret carriers have disappeared, and with them, their stress mechanics, but that's not the result of the Jumpmaster's arrival so much as it is Guidance Chips and the overall ordnance boost. Y's and K's simply can't stand up to that degree of spike damage, regardless of who's doing it. I can take three of the good old Scimitar Bombers out with Jonus behind them, and remove turret carriers with ease. The likes of Poe and Corran relied upon those meat-and-veg ships to be the distraction/shield while they used their regen abilities to hit-and-fade, so once one fell out of favour, it took the other with it.

I do think the Rebels are lacking now. Ordnance has punched a hole in their mainstay generics, and the perfect imbalance has just become a straight faction imbalance. I think Gamma Vets will probably highlight this a bit more, once Imp Vets drops.

Sadly that's my other qualm about the uBoats.

I've tried running some Gamma Vets, and for what they bring I don't think they'll do as well as the uBoats.

Even with dead eye, Extra Munitions, ordnance of your choice, and guidance chips, they don't get the action economy that the uBoats have.

Not just that, but it's their hp. No shields, dial that hinders them.

I love bombers, I've used them effectively, but not when carrying ordnance.

Crew carrier and bombs, great, anything else still seems to require too much work.

They don't have the ease of uBoats

In that case you use the wrong ordnance. For ships that have no access to any of the R4s, Homing Missiles are the only sane choice because they keep the TL. You know what would be a legitimate list in the meta? This:

Gamma Squadron Pilot (25) x 4

TIE Bomber (18), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Guidance Chips (0)

But it has such a hard time against (Palp) Aces that its not even funny. Its impossible to get TLs on the first turn and after that its really difficult to have more than one arc on any ship except the shuttle, which leaves the Bombers to be picked apart rather quickly by the aces. If you get one ace into arc, its probably going to fart out at least 3 evades, because the high risk/reward thing hasn't been true since wave 6.

Poe was pretty good against Palp Aces, because he had good accuracy, Regen mattered because it was only two ships that dealt a max of 3 or so hits a turn each, which Regen, Poe's ability, and Autothrusters could easily keep up with, and the T-70 is maneuverable enough to tangle with those Aces, but it's not enough agility and health to survive 3 perfect plasma torps.

Why are you allowing yourself to take 3 plasmas? That doesn't sound like a game play problem, sounds like you haven't learned to keep and maintain ranges.

Poe was pretty good against Palp Aces, because he had good accuracy, Regen mattered because it was only two ships that dealt a max of 3 or so hits a turn each, which Regen, Poe's ability, and Autothrusters could easily keep up with, and the T-70 is maneuverable enough to tangle with those Aces, but it's not enough agility and health to survive 3 perfect plasma torps.

Why are you allowing yourself to take 3 plasmas? That doesn't sound like a game play problem, sounds like you haven't learned to keep and maintain ranges.

It's an exaggeration. Even just one torp collapses the shields, and against three JM5ks, best case you'll probably take the torp from one then take 2 primary shots, which will probably stack at least one more damage on him, and this is almost guaranteed round 1 because there's basically no way for a Rebel list to take a JM5K out on the first round of shooting. Poe has a very poor match up against U-Boats because at the end of the day he is only a 2 agility 6 HP ship, and when he does take the perfect 4 hit plasma torp, even if he does get a perfect 2 evades, he's still lost all of his shields, and it's not like he can run away to regen because the JM5Ks will just white segnors next turn and hit him with more torps. The only way to really survive the JM5K torps is to have 3+ agility and stacked tokens, and, of course, palpatine, because it's not quite that easy to dodge 3 large ship arcs. You can get into range 1; But the formation that U-Boats is flown in means that at least one JM5K will still have you at Range 2, and if you do get into range 1, now you're taking a torp AND 3 die primary shots. The Empire can just dodge every hit and be ok, Rebels can't do that and they don't have the HP after their agility to survive.

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Just because a player complains about something, that by no means makes them a weak player, but aren't you doing the same thing as you just commented on?

Degrading those who complain.

Once those who degrade others stop, will I as well stop laughing at them. Had a player constantly being negative at Hoth about how jumpmasters are not fun to play against, but what was he playing? A palp aces list. I explained to him some people find palp not fun to fight and that it to is an issue, but he wouldn't have any of it. his opinion was supreme, even though I explained fun is completely subjective.

And yes, you can be a weak player and win store championships, you might just be the biggest fish in the pond, till you realize there are great whites in the ocean. The whole reason I brought up the TOing and reports thing isn't to show im better, but to show that I've gotten to witness many a game. Any sadly the players that complain the most usually fall into the same group. The ones that insist they lost due to bad dice even though both rolled average, they just never took mods. They try to joust a superior joust list. Etc etc.

The crux of it, is the constant complaining, expecting others to bend to what you find fun, and not taking fun into your own hands. Even against lists I don't think are exactly fun to play against I take the time to figure out what the best way to beat them is, and learn to take fun away from learning new strategies.

I will contiune to believe complainers are weak, more so with a game, because even in all those examples you used, they would rather rant about the problem instead of solve it. And that is indeed weak.

If people are frustrated, they'll complain.

If they got paired up against 2-4 uBoats or ace squads in a tournament, kind of boring after awhile, I wouldn't tell them they are terrible. Maybe their squad worked well against other ships, they had a plan,but had bad dice, took higher risks, or made bad calculations.

Maybe they were up all night with a crying baby. Something Many on here probably never had the luxury of experiencing, then had to drive 2 hours to the event.

My point is **** happens and you don't know what situations everyone goes through prior.

I on one hand have won and done extremely well at tournaments with no sleep, and woke up sick, but still had to go due to others depending on me to be there for the car pool.

Believe you me that is no easy feat, and I could have just lost my games just as easily due to those effects.

People will complain Regardless of dice.

I too have watched and seen many games, and know that dice is a a huge factor

Actually it's a major factor

In the end this is a dice game. Dice determines the outcome if every game

It's like any other

Risk, axis and allies.

It don't matter how good your strategy is when your opponent just rolls better than you.

The difference here is that xwing has way to reduce the bad dice by rerolls and ways to change symbols on the dice, so that is where more skill will come in, but I've had had plenty of games where I've seen the numbers myself.

Lady luck through vassal will show you all the dice rolls.

In some games my opponents were utterly amazed at how terrible my dice were.

Even though I had modifiers to reduce the bad luck, it still didn't help those games.

I remember those games not because of the bad luck, but actually the comments of my opponents. One saying it was the worse he's ever seen,

It never matters what side of the fence I'm on, but to me the least fun games are when they are totally one sided, where I, or opponent rolls hits and crits without the need to modify all day while myself or opponent rolls blank green dice while through rocks, r3 and having a Focus.

One sided dice games are not fun for me regardless if I'm winning

I never like to see it. Even my opponent. Because I've been there and I know it sucks.

Having whisper get one shooter at R3 through a rock, cloaked and with tokens stacked, there is nothing you can do when your dice blank but maybe take a break

I stand by with what I said earlier, those who complain are not weak players, and again that is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

People complain because they are not happy about something.

If they have bad days or games people complain.

Go to a tournament, have all your games against different players but the same lists, Ya people will complain. Maybe they lost, but going to an event and seeing all the same thing would take the fun out for a lot of people.

They want to play xwing, not Han Wing or Phantom Wing.

Some things people can't solve. A puzzle, looking for a solution towards something, frustration, people complain.

It again doesn't mean there a weak player

By your standards anyone who would complain about anything is just a terrible person in that regard

If someone complains about wife taking long getting ready, they must be bad at being a husband.

If someone complain about others driving, I guess they are a bad driver

Or complains about a crying baby has kept them up for over 24 hours, they are a bad father/mother

Or complain about ships in xwing, then are bad at xwing

Jesus h Christ that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard rofl

In fact it's healthy to let out your frustration rather than let it build up, and complaining is the easiest way for some people to do that. Blow off some steam when they feel frustrated.

That by no means any of them are bad players

To me that just sounds like backwoods redneck hillbilly talking

Sorry but your experience does not make you some xwing guru, enough to base judgement on every single person based off a conversation or something you read.

Get off that high horse before you fall and hurt yourself

Get off that high horse before you fall and hurt yourself

Where am I on my high horse? I'm stating that people that would rather constantly complain and not congratulate a player for winning, just because of his list, are a problem. Complaining, while it has its place, that isn't one. They are weak players that would rather criticize and break down the community rather then build it up.

From the looks of it, I hit a cord with you on that, and I do apologize for aggregating you so, but you need to sit down and take a look at it from another side. I can see where it isn't fun for others, but to say that a person can not play a list they find fun, because another finds it boring to play, is a problem. You can not impose your views on others, and vise versa. So now, it comes down to you to find fun in what you are presented with. If you choose to contiune to complain, that doesn't help. And it falls to no one else to fix it.

The high horse comment is a really hard sell from someone who's first post in the thread stated something along the lines of "if you fly triple U-Boats you have no skill and are just looking for an easy win". You think that really has the high ground over "anyone that complains is just a bad player"?

Argue your point but don't act like you aren't on a high horse of a different color compared to the other poster.

Get off that high horse before you fall and hurt yourself

Where am I on my high horse? I'm stating that people that would rather constantly complain and not congratulate a player for winning, just because of his list, are a problem. Complaining, while it has its place, that isn't one. They are weak players that would rather criticize and break down the community rather then build it up.

From the looks of it, I hit a cord with you on that, and I do apologize for aggregating you so, but you need to sit down and take a look at it from another side. I can see where it isn't fun for others, but to say that a person can not play a list they find fun, because another finds it boring to play, is a problem. You can not impose your views on others, and vise versa. So now, it comes down to you to find fun in what you are presented with. If you choose to contiune to complain, that doesn't help. And it falls to no one else to fix it.

You try to use your experience in the game, and with a few bad apples as a reason why you are able to do so.

So because I don't like something, regardless if I beat out or not If I complained about it, then I'm a bad player?

How does that even make sense?

I don't recall anyone here saying don't play x list.

But it really would get repetitive if you went to an event and 3 out of 4-5 games were all the same lists.

Luckily that's never happened to me, but Ya I'd probably complain too. Why? Because maybe I didn't enjoy myself.

People want to play a game with a lot of variety. Not pancake Wing.

I don't think the issue is people are saying it's not fun

I think what they find is when you play against the same list multiple times at one event, then it's not fun.

So why do so many use the same list?

UBoats are a safety net. You may not agree with that but they are

They don't die with a bad dice roll

They don't die if they hit a rock

They can block well, better than any small ship with their large base barrel roll.

UBoats basically have become the new fat Han.

People hated Han because he was a pt fortress, and regardless of where you move pre autothrusters, he always had a shot with good success of hitting, vs you having to get him in arc, and when you did, you did 1 dmg

Now you have people flying 3 ships, while not a pt fortress they are flying a list that basically guarantees you'll get 4 hits, which also takes out some of that randomness, and luck factor.

You roll blank, blank, focus, blank.

I'll focus, change my focus to hit, reroll my three blanks. Oh I got two hits. Now I'll change this to hit with guidance chips.

My main beef about the uBoats is how they stole the shoe from other ships.

I'm glad ordnance is getting used, but at the moment the only effective way to easily use it is uBoats, so things like bombers, and other ships where that is their specialty is pushed out the door.

I don't believe a freighter should be able to do things better than a military specialty ship.

Maybe I'm wrong on that aspect, maybe in e.u it's a highly customizable ship.

Not just bombers. But the firespray as well.

Imo that thing should be able to fly circles around Dengar

After really the bounty hunter wars book I really don't know what ffg was thinking When they did Dengar.

He knows **** well how outmatch he is when it comes to crossing boba fett. He's not an idiot and wants to stay alive.

Just because you have run into some that what to whine "it's not fair..." does not give you the right to put anyone, and everyone that complains into that same category.

That's all I'm saying.

Your original statement in this thread you basically said everyone Here who has complained for whatever reasons is bad at xwing.

That's like me saying I say some kids at the store shoplifting. Therfore all kids must be shoplifting.

(maybe a bad analogy but you get what I'm saying)

Yes there are idiots out there, but don't assume that because of a few bad apples that all are spoiled

If it wasnt because of complaining we wouldn't have autothrusters, we probably wouldn't have gotten guidance chips, etc

Complaints is also a way for a business to address issues people may have about the business

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Just because a player complains about something, that by no means makes them a weak player, but aren't you doing the same thing as you just commented on?

Degrading those who complain.

Once those who degrade others stop, will I as well stop laughing at them. Had a player constantly being negative at Hoth about how jumpmasters are not fun to play against, but what was he playing? A palp aces list. I explained to him some people find palp not fun to fight and that it to is an issue, but he wouldn't have any of it. his opinion was supreme, even though I explained fun is completely subjective.

And yes, you can be a weak player and win store championships, you might just be the biggest fish in the pond, till you realize there are great whites in the ocean. The whole reason I brought up the TOing and reports thing isn't to show im better, but to show that I've gotten to witness many a game. Any sadly the players that complain the most usually fall into the same group. The ones that insist they lost due to bad dice even though both rolled average, they just never took mods. They try to joust a superior joust list. Etc etc.

The crux of it, is the constant complaining, expecting others to bend to what you find fun, and not taking fun into your own hands. Even against lists I don't think are exactly fun to play against I take the time to figure out what the best way to beat them is, and learn to take fun away from learning new strategies.

I will contiune to believe complainers are weak, more so with a game, because even in all those examples you used, they would rather rant about the problem instead of solve it. And that is indeed weak.

I'm sorry you think your right, but your wrong again.

If people are frustrated, they'll complain.

If they got paired up against 2-4 uBoats or ace squads in a tournament, kind of boring after awhile, I wouldn't tell them they are terrible. Maybe their squad worked well against other ships, they had a plan,but had bad dice, took higher risks, or made bad calculations.

Maybe they were up all night with a crying baby. Something Many on here probably never had the luxury of experiencing, then had to drive 2 hours to the event.

My point is **** happens and you don't know what situations everyone goes through prior.

I on one hand have won and done extremely well at tournaments with no sleep, and woke up sick, but still had to go due to others depending on me to be there for the car pool.

Believe you me that is no easy feat, and I could have just lost my games just as easily due to those effects.

People will complain Regardless of dice.

I too have watched and seen many games, and know that dice is a a huge factor

Actually it's a major factor

In the end this is a dice game. Dice determines the outcome if every game

It's like any other

Risk, axis and allies.

It don't matter how good your strategy is when your opponent just rolls better than you.

The difference here is that xwing has way to reduce the bad dice by rerolls and ways to change symbols on the dice, so that is where more skill will come in, but I've had had plenty of games where I've seen the numbers myself.

Lady luck through vassal will show you all the dice rolls.

In some games my opponents were utterly amazed at how terrible my dice were.

Even though I had modifiers to reduce the bad luck, it still didn't help those games.

I remember those games not because of the bad luck, but actually the comments of my opponents. One saying it was the worse he's ever seen,

It never matters what side of the fence I'm on, but to me the least fun games are when they are totally one sided, where I, or opponent rolls hits and crits without the need to modify all day while myself or opponent rolls blank green dice while through rocks, r3 and having a Focus.

One sided dice games are not fun for me regardless if I'm winning

I never like to see it. Even my opponent. Because I've been there and I know it sucks.

Having whisper get one shooter at R3 through a rock, cloaked and with tokens stacked, there is nothing you can do when your dice blank but maybe take a break

I stand by with what I said earlier, those who complain are not weak players, and again that is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

People complain because they are not happy about something.

If they have bad days or games people complain.

Go to a tournament, have all your games against different players but the same lists, Ya people will complain. Maybe they lost, but going to an event and seeing all the same thing would take the fun out for a lot of people.

They want to play xwing, not Han Wing or Phantom Wing.

Some things people can't solve. A puzzle, looking for a solution towards something, frustration, people complain.

It again doesn't mean there a weak player

By your standards anyone who would complain about anything is just a terrible person in that regard

If someone complains about wife taking long getting ready, they must be bad at being a husband.

If someone complain about others driving, I guess they are a bad driver

Or complains about a crying baby has kept them up for over 24 hours, they are a bad father/mother

Or complain about ships in xwing, then are bad at xwing

Jesus h Christ that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard rofl

In fact it's healthy to let out your frustration rather than let it build up, and complaining is the easiest way for some people to do that. Blow off some steam when they feel frustrated.

That by no means any of them are bad players

To me that just sounds like backwoods redneck hillbilly talking

Sorry but your experience does not make you some xwing guru, enough to base judgement on every single person based off a conversation or something you read.

Look. It's not that complainers are bad - but if you lose repeatedly/see people losing repeatedly and (instead of working out how to beat them) complain about it - then you're a weaker player because you won't try to make yourself better. Jumpmasters can be beaten and (as the guy who WON at Hoth with them can attest) it isn't easy to win with them either.

I remember Regionals 2015. I was a new player, wet around the ears, brought an awful, awful list. I walked around to look at the competition. A few fat hans. some decis. 4BZ. Imp Aces. CorranDash. 3Xs. So many more than i could name. So much variety, no one list really had a majority.

Now, out of 65 players, 20 or so will have the exact same U-Boats list, 25 will have some variation on Palp Aces, and the 20 remaining people will have the miscellaneous lists. This is my experience this tournament season, and exactly why i have avoided future tournaments until it changes. I intensely dislike the sheer lack of variety more than anything. I'm not going to say anything about whether it takes skill or doesnt, because frankly it's not really my place to decide, especially since i have never flown these lists.

What i am saying, is that this meta has no variety. The Palp Aces list or the U-Boats list will, 9 times out of 10, win any given tournament, something we have seen at every System Open thus far, where the Top 8 has ALWAYS consisted of Palp Aces and U-Boats, with one errant slot for any other list like that one Poe list at the first System Open, or the TIE Swarm that just won the most recent one. No matter what you believe, this simply isn't cool. It's considered an upset when something that isnt Palp or U-Boats wins a tournament. How can anyone think that this is healthy for the game?

This. I go to tournaments as much for playing something different than what I face every week at my FLGS as the chance to win some tokens and cards. Running into 2-3 PalpAces and 2-3 U-boats is not fun. It's dull. I don't want to give up a day for dull. I play rebels 7 games out of 10 because I love the look of the ships. Now if I don't want to place in the bottom third I have to play some form of PalpAces or a U-boat list? I have to add to the dull? FFG screwed up. They didn't mean to. But they did.

in a game where flying tactics is the core aspect of how you play, i cant imagine how people would be salty at such a "i win button" list.

You simply cannot beat tripboats without either crazy dice luck on your end, uboat player is an idiot, or you manage to alphastrike one down and survive the other two (ala the tieswarm guy at worlds). Considering theyre pretty **** beefy, alphastriking them in a single round isnt easy.

I hold them at the same level of turret spammers. Yes it works, yes its strong, yes it wins, but you are completely ignoring a major aspect of the game. Thus, it is boring as hell and deserves no praise. I see tripboats and all they do is turtle until you get in one of their crazy maneuverable arcs and explode. If you outfly me, cool i got bested by a better player. If you win because you literally just have to roll dice and not hit a rock, youre not a better player youre just using handicaps.

I take pride in how well i know how to fly around rocks and call people's actions several turns ahead. It really pisses me off when i face someone that uses a list that completely throws good flying/prediction out the window and brings the game to pure dice luck. Not because it works, but because its BORING AS HELL

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Just because a player complains about something, that by no means makes them a weak player, but aren't you doing the same thing as you just commented on?

Degrading those who complain.

Once those who degrade others stop, will I as well stop laughing at them. Had a player constantly being negative at Hoth about how jumpmasters are not fun to play against, but what was he playing? A palp aces list. I explained to him some people find palp not fun to fight and that it to is an issue, but he wouldn't have any of it. his opinion was supreme, even though I explained fun is completely subjective.

And yes, you can be a weak player and win store championships, you might just be the biggest fish in the pond, till you realize there are great whites in the ocean. The whole reason I brought up the TOing and reports thing isn't to show im better, but to show that I've gotten to witness many a game. Any sadly the players that complain the most usually fall into the same group. The ones that insist they lost due to bad dice even though both rolled average, they just never took mods. They try to joust a superior joust list. Etc etc.

The crux of it, is the constant complaining, expecting others to bend to what you find fun, and not taking fun into your own hands. Even against lists I don't think are exactly fun to play against I take the time to figure out what the best way to beat them is, and learn to take fun away from learning new strategies.

I will contiune to believe complainers are weak, more so with a game, because even in all those examples you used, they would rather rant about the problem instead of solve it. And that is indeed weak.

I'm sorry you think your right, but your wrong again.

If people are frustrated, they'll complain.

If they got paired up against 2-4 uBoats or ace squads in a tournament, kind of boring after awhile, I wouldn't tell them they are terrible. Maybe their squad worked well against other ships, they had a plan,but had bad dice, took higher risks, or made bad calculations.

Maybe they were up all night with a crying baby. Something Many on here probably never had the luxury of experiencing, then had to drive 2 hours to the event.

My point is **** happens and you don't know what situations everyone goes through prior.

I on one hand have won and done extremely well at tournaments with no sleep, and woke up sick, but still had to go due to others depending on me to be there for the car pool.

Believe you me that is no easy feat, and I could have just lost my games just as easily due to those effects.

People will complain Regardless of dice.

I too have watched and seen many games, and know that dice is a a huge factor

Actually it's a major factor

In the end this is a dice game. Dice determines the outcome if every game

It's like any other

Risk, axis and allies.

It don't matter how good your strategy is when your opponent just rolls better than you.

The difference here is that xwing has way to reduce the bad dice by rerolls and ways to change symbols on the dice, so that is where more skill will come in, but I've had had plenty of games where I've seen the numbers myself.

Lady luck through vassal will show you all the dice rolls.

In some games my opponents were utterly amazed at how terrible my dice were.

Even though I had modifiers to reduce the bad luck, it still didn't help those games.

I remember those games not because of the bad luck, but actually the comments of my opponents. One saying it was the worse he's ever seen,

It never matters what side of the fence I'm on, but to me the least fun games are when they are totally one sided, where I, or opponent rolls hits and crits without the need to modify all day while myself or opponent rolls blank green dice while through rocks, r3 and having a Focus.

One sided dice games are not fun for me regardless if I'm winning

I never like to see it. Even my opponent. Because I've been there and I know it sucks.

Having whisper get one shooter at R3 through a rock, cloaked and with tokens stacked, there is nothing you can do when your dice blank but maybe take a break

I stand by with what I said earlier, those who complain are not weak players, and again that is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

People complain because they are not happy about something.

If they have bad days or games people complain.

Go to a tournament, have all your games against different players but the same lists, Ya people will complain. Maybe they lost, but going to an event and seeing all the same thing would take the fun out for a lot of people.

They want to play xwing, not Han Wing or Phantom Wing.

Some things people can't solve. A puzzle, looking for a solution towards something, frustration, people complain.

It again doesn't mean there a weak player

By your standards anyone who would complain about anything is just a terrible person in that regard

If someone complains about wife taking long getting ready, they must be bad at being a husband.

If someone complain about others driving, I guess they are a bad driver

Or complains about a crying baby has kept them up for over 24 hours, they are a bad father/mother

Or complain about ships in xwing, then are bad at xwing

Jesus h Christ that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard rofl

In fact it's healthy to let out your frustration rather than let it build up, and complaining is the easiest way for some people to do that. Blow off some steam when they feel frustrated.

That by no means any of them are bad players

To me that just sounds like backwoods redneck hillbilly talking

Sorry but your experience does not make you some xwing guru, enough to base judgement on every single person based off a conversation or something you read.

Look. It's not that complainers are bad - but if you lose repeatedly/see people losing repeatedly and (instead of working out how to beat them) complain about it - then you're a weaker player because you won't try to make yourself better. Jumpmasters can be beaten and (as the guy who WON at Hoth with them can attest) it isn't easy to win with them either.

Hugo suggested that everyone who complains is bad, which I'm simply pointing out that he's wrong in that regard.

Now if you keep using the same tactics against the same build and lose over and over then Ya maybe this is not your cup of tea.

And congrats on winning the Hoth open

I probably wouldn't win, even if I was flying tripple uBoats but I mean, you did win with tripple uBoats, so they did exactly what they are suppose to do

And someone else said it

It's not the players fault but the designers fault.

Personally this wave and the last I do not like the direction this game has been going in.

I don't know what they are thinking with some of the things they have released, but my personal opinion is I don't like it.

But that's just me, others are fine with it.

When we first got into the game my friends stated what they like best about it is you had to outmaneuver your opponent, and guess where he was going to go, to line up that shot

With so many turrets now, that is ruining what they like most.

This is one reason why I don't fly turrets.

Yes they can beat me when I use them, but it takes something away that they enjoyed.

Now with all the auto hits/evades I'm hearing more and more how people don't like it.

Turrets took away the maneuvering for some

Emperor and uBoats is taking the randomness, and luck factor out of it.

To many auto includes for ships.

Only 1-2 pilot that gets used with one ship. (coran, poe, etc)

Can't wait for regionals to past and retire from the tournament scene

I did a quick analysis of the 40-player Regional I went to, and Triple Scouts scored much higher on average than all other lists, including Palp Aces. Which to me is a sign that Triple Scouts are easier to fly. All four Regionals in the Netherlands were won by Triple Jumpmasters.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that the players that took triple jumpmaster lists, generally also place higher at tournaments on avarage with other lists.

EDIT: and I should know because I was there

Can I just say this whole thing is sad. Really. I am not a tournament player, but it seems a shame to me that this one list causes such agitation, yet for those who play it with skill and cunning they are left in shows of poor sportsmanship, or so it would seem from the comments here. I don't know about everyone else here, but I joined X-Wing to fly lovely models in games that weren't totally time consuming. The sad thing is this list seems to have resulted in a negative play experience... Honestly I don't know what to say about this... I think people should fly what they want, and there will always be a meta. It is just a shame that there is so much contention... What I can say is this, every player deserves respect. They deserve congratulations and sportsmanlike behavior, absolutely. The question is are the U-Boats or Palp Aces unsportsmanlike to play. I would say no they are perfectly valid. If anything, FFG should issue a ban or limit like MTG when a card is overpowered. I'm not sure if the jump master is there, but there seems to be a lot of complaints. More so than I would expect for something powerful but fairly balanced. Just my opinion though.

Please stop fighting, especially when quoting others opinion making the post endless!

Please stop fighting, especially when quoting others opinion making the post endless!

So true lol